Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: MillCreek on June 02, 2011, 08:43:18 AM
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http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2015208785_noisychurch02m.html
This church is a mile away from me. I am far enough away that I cannot hear them. An interesting dilemma between their First Amendment rights versus courtesy for your neighbors. Some interesting comments as well.
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Are sonic area denial weapons covered under the First Amendment? Be a good way of teaching the church to turn down the volume.
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Are we now debating whether or not rock concerts are considered religious expression?
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Much to be said, but I'm grumpy, growly, depressed and underslept. Later.
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i think i'd umleash a whole raft of stuff on the preacher. audits by the irs being one
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i think i'd umleash a whole raft of stuff on the preacher. audits by the irs being one
Or have the BATFE burn it down- it might be a cult.
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Paging El Teon, Ned Hamford, Bridgerunner and the rest of the associates at APS Legal Group, LLC*. I say we get a professional sound survey done, and then hit the church with the choice of staying within the legal sound limits (something about rendering Ceasar, IIRC) or facing damages for maintaining a common and/or attractive nuisance. We've got a few folks scattered around APS who can provide diagnoses/assessments of how the neighbors have suffered both physically and psychologically since the music started.
Except for WBC I usually do not suggest suing the daylights out of churches who behave obnoxiously, but these folks seem to be asking for it. Publically stating that your sound system is set higher than the legal limit is reckless endangerment as far as I'm concerned.
stay safe.
*LLC = Lucifer's Legal Crew
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I'd have to go there to witness for myself to determine where I stand on this particular issue. But, in general, I think it best to apply the "don't be an ass" policy and not be as loud as the law allows. Pastor Rock Star might want to investigate such a policy.
I also live near a loud venue: a Texas public high school football stadium(1). I don't mind it, except for the ridiculous volume they use on the PA system, which reverberates for 1/4 mile. I don;t mind the occasional roar of the crowd or the half time bands, even though I can hear them, too.
Don;t get me started on the "rock & roll and gospel of self-help" style churches.
(1) Biggest waste of tax dollars you ever saw. Freaking huge.
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I am going to have to walk down there on Sunday, stand outside the sanctuary and hear for myself just how loud it is.
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I am going to have to walk down there on Sunday, stand outside the sanctuary and hear for myself just how loud it is.
Let us know if it is loud enough to convert you from your wayward heatheness. =)
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"Lovick believes the county's sound ordinance is difficult to interpret. On one hand, anything that disturbs someone can be considered a nuisance; and on the other, it sets the residential noise level at 55."
???
Does anyone actually have a problem understanding this? Disturbing someone is a nuisance, if you're at 55 or over you are presumed to be disturbing someone.
"You have said 'just turn it down,' but I want to worship in the way I want to worship and I don't want someone else to tell me how I can do it."
:facepalm:
I hate to think of church members whose ethos reject the notion of harming others as being a bad thing... One thing to self harm, but loud noises causes hearing loss and lots of bass causes things to shake, well, damaging everything.
We weren't here first, we are doing something new, but by golly, how dare you take offense at our blatant disturbing of the public peace and your right to quiet enjoyment. [barf]
If it were me, I'd file a tort, and failing that, set up my own boom box set to 54 dB
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-NOZU2iPA8
And a handy chart. 55Db is the point in which you've got to start raising your own voice to be heard.
http://www.asha.org/public/hearing/Noise/
My phone has an app that tells me how loud things are too =D
And one more edit as I'm still killing time for dinner... the local ordinance
http://www.co.snohomish.wa.us/Documents/Departments/Council/county_code/CountyCodeTitle10.pdf
It is really straight forward, there is even a chart. An amusing bit of small print, ice cream trucks are exempted from much of it :)
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55dB as a noise limit is absurd. Normal conversation exceeds that at about 60dB, and a when the Garbage truck drives by once a week it's about 80-85dB. That said, since the cops are promptly doing nothing, I think I'd get all the neighbors together and have everyone put their stereo speakers in an upstairs window pointing toward this church and have everyone crank up a different radio station.
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Let us know if it is loud enough to convert you from your wayward heatheness. =)
Methodists are wayward heathens? :angel:
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Surely, someone can find a Biblical quote regarding the beauty of silence.
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55dB as a noise limit is absurd. Normal conversation exceeds that at about 60dB, and a when the Garbage truck drives by once a week it's about 80-85dB. That said, since the cops are promptly doing nothing, I think I'd get all the neighbors together and have everyone put their stereo speakers in an upstairs window pointing toward this church and have everyone crank up a different radio station.
Unless I'm mistaken, its not the measure at point of origin, its at the nuisance point. 55dB over there is no problem, its when its 55dB inside the bedroom of the next house over, and that continuously.
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Methodists are wayward heathens? :angel:
Heh. Depends on whom you ask. There are whole denominations that split off from the "heathen worldliness" of the wayward Methodist church.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holiness_movement
Of course, I was just joking. See? =) =) :angel:
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A friend of mine had the same issue for years...cept it was Rap not Rock. The thump of the base was constant. It was a losing battle and he ended up selling his house.
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Surely, someone can find a Biblical quote regarding the beauty of silence.
Most I'm finding are pretty grim.
When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.
From John's Apocalypse. And you know how that ends.
This one's pretty good:
But the LORD is in his holy temple;
let all the earth keep silence before him.
From Habakkuk, a contemporary of Jeremiah, more or less, which means he was prophesyin' scant decades before the Babylonian S*** was seriously going to hit the Judah-ite fan.
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"Gold Creek is a Christian Church and we believe our First Amendment right is freedom of religion," Ehoff wrote to Ronglien. "You have said 'just turn it down,' but I want to worship in the way I want to worship and I don't want someone else to tell me how I can do it."
Anybody else feeling a call from God to go worship in front of this guy's house with airhorns at 3AM?
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Anybody else feeling a call from God to go worship in front of this guy's house with airhorns at 3AM?
Any laws about using blank-firing guns in public? If not, there are some full-auto versions to use :angel:.
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55dB as a noise limit is absurd. Normal conversation exceeds that at about 60dB, and a when the Garbage truck drives by once a week it's about 80-85dB. That said, since the cops are promptly doing nothing, I think I'd get all the neighbors together and have everyone put their stereo speakers in an upstairs window pointing toward this church and have everyone crank up a different radio station.
Playing the sound from a good porn. Preferably Petrodactyl porn.
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Anybody else feeling a call from God to go worship in front of this guy's house with airhorns at 3AM?
I like the idea from the article comments... create a "Church of the Immaculate Air Raid Siren" next door!
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http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2015208785_noisychurch02m.html
This church is a mile away from me. I am far enough away that I cannot hear them. An interesting dilemma between their First Amendment rights versus courtesy for your neighbors. Some interesting comments as well.
I don't think the 1st Amendment in any way protects an imaginary "right" to disturb anyone with unwanted noise.
Here's what it actually says:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Parsing that for freedom of speech only, it says:
Congress shall make no law respecting ... abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; ...
The intent behind this was to ensure that the government would not punish people for expressing views opposed to the views espoused by said government. The 1st Amendment was never intended to provide carte blanche for some people to get in the faces of other people.
Parsing for freedom of religion (which the church seems to be claiming), it says:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, ...
So ... how does a law that basically says, "Thou shalt not disturb thy neighbors with loud noises" in any way equate to establishing a state religion?
And as for "Would you seriously expect us to tone down 2000 people so you can sleep in on Sunday?" ... my answer is "Damn straight, Skippy!"
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^^^ Actually, it is the 'or prohibiting the free exercise thereof' clause that applies. Exactly what constitutes 'the free exercise of religion' has occupied many linear feet of appellate court opinions.
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^^^ Actually, it is the 'or prohibiting the free exercise thereof' clause that applies. Exactly what constitutes 'the free exercise of religion' has occupied many linear feet of appellate court opinions.
Well, they claim to be Christian. How does NOT disturbing the neighbors interfere with Christian doctrine? Where in the New Testament did Jesus instruct the disciples to "Go ye forth, and wake up the neighbors thrice on Sunday and again on Wednesday evening"?
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Anybody else feeling a call from God to go worship in front of this guy's house with airhorns at 3AM?
I like the idea from the article comments... create a "Church of the Immaculate Air Raid Siren" next door!
I'm in
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When I made my original post, there were 47 comments. As of right this second, there are 508. The pastor of the church sent an email to his congregation encouraging them to post comments.
PS: The comment thread has been closed by the paper.
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Methodists are wayward heathens? :angel:
Nope, just the gal minister at the last Methodist service I went to. She couldn't be bothered to wear anything nicer than a T-shirt with her college/seminary on it to conduct the service. I'd bet "Casual Fridays" among the ministers church workers is something to write home about.
Nice building, though. And no disturbing the neighbors with Gawd Rock.
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Conversion by the
sword amplifier?
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This "church" apparently is oblivious to the concept of loving your neighbor.
Appears to be just another symptom of the narcissistic nature of our culture.
I want what I want.
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I want what I want.
"Boy, you had better start learning to want what I tell you to want."
I believe those were the words my Drill Instructor used. I might have left some flowery descriptive adjectives and modifiers out, of course.
stay safe.
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This "church" apparently is oblivious to the concept of loving your neighbor.
Appears to be just another symptom of the narcissistic nature of our culture.
I want what I want.
The worst is not the "I want what I want" but the spoiled "How dare you tell ME what I can do!" attitude.
No, people can't tell you how to worship God. They can tell you at what volume is acceptable for the neighbors.
You want to worship God extra loud? There are plenty of places where people won't be disturbed. Alternatively, soundproof your building better. (You spent thousands? Great: it wasn't enough. Spend more or turn it down.)
And seriously, drywall? I'm no expert, but what are the sound deadening capabilities of drywall?
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This "church" apparently is oblivious to the concept of loving your neighbor.
Appears to be just another symptom of the narcissistic nature of our culture.
I want what I want.
That church, is here (http://www.goldcreek.org/), and from the Google map, appears to be in the middle of the twisty street district (suburban residential). The signs I'm seeing look like typical suburban pop megachurch. To research it, I'd be googling their leadership, seeing who they were connected with, stuff like that. I'm seeing a few oddities in their SOF (http://www.goldcreek.org/home/our-beliefs). Remarkably indefinite on the nature of the Trinity, for one. Just sloppy?
No, people can't tell you how to worship God.
But, God can. Ohhhh, the dreaded regulative principle.
All the signs look like a church "not my style". But, style is the wrong question (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulative_principle_of_worship).
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what are the sound deadening capabilities of drywall?
there are some specialized (read pricey) products and techniques
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This church really needs to pick up its readings in the book of Romans.....
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2013&version=MSG (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2013&version=MSG)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+14&version=MSG (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+14&version=MSG)
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I remember when this church was built originally. At the time, it did not have as many houses as are surrounding it today. However, the large concert hall/sanctuary is new, and was finished (it was partially-built for a couple of years) just last year. The surrounding area had been completely built out with houses by the time the concert hall/sanctuary was started back in 2008. The church was not known for loud concerts prior to building the concert hall/sanctuary. So from the standpoint of the surrounding neighbors, the loud concerts are a new development that did not exist when their homes were built.
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I remember when this church was built originally. At the time, it did not have as many houses as are surrounding it today. However, the large concert hall/sanctuary is new, and was finished (it was partially-built for a couple of years) just last year. The surrounding area had been completely built out with houses by the time the concert hall/sanctuary was started back in 2008. The church was not known for loud concerts prior to building the concert hall/sanctuary. So from the standpoint of the surrounding neighbors, the loud concerts are a new development that did not exist when their homes were built.
Sounds to me like they recently changed how they were worshiping God. It also sounds like there are solutions they could pursue.
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what are the sound deadening capabilities of drywall?
there are some specialized (read pricey) products and techniques
Dropping a crane load of it onto the noise source is usually the most effective.
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Sounds to me like they recently changed how they were worshiping God.
Quite possibly.
Poking around on Teh Interwebz, I found this (http://www.wapacnaz.org/district-assembly/2010pastorreports/goldcreekcommunity.pdf), which indicates that from 2001 to 2005 numbers were pretty steady. From 2005 to 2010, membership and weekly attendance more than doubled. Perhaps that's when the rock bands came in.
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For his part, Pastor Dan Kellogg, a youthful man who preaches in jeans and a rhinestone-trimmed black shirt, says the church takes the complaints seriously. And Ehoff, who plays in the band, says the church has spent $50,000 putting up drywall to mitigate the sound.
I never knew drywall was the ideal sound absorption material.
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Quite possibly.
Poking around on Teh Interwebz, I found this (http://www.wapacnaz.org/district-assembly/2010pastorreports/goldcreekcommunity.pdf), which indicates that from 2001 to 2005 numbers were pretty steady. From 2005 to 2010, membership and weekly attendance more than doubled. Perhaps that's when the rock bands came in.
No, in 2005 they moved to their current site and built the first of the three steel-frame warehouse-type buildings that are currently on the property. Prior to 2005, they were about five miles away in a much smaller, more traditional type of wooden-frame church building that was originally built as a Lutheran church back in the 50's. So the new church in 2005 was more than double the size, and I suspect that enabled the attendance counts to start climbing.
When I have read about them in the local paper, they make a point of pride in all the construction is funded with current monies, and they don't take out loans to build. This explains the piece-meal expansion over the years, and why the current concert hall/sanctuary sat half-completed for two years while they saved up enough money to finish it off.
And again, I know all this only because I live within a mile of the church, bicycle or drive past it several times a week, and have read about them in my local media. Before the latest kerfuffle in the paper, I was actually unaware of any controversy surrounding them.
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This church really needs to pick up its readings in the book of Romans.....
Yeah, that's what I was looking for.
(1.)
Appears to be just another symptom of the narcissistic self-righteous nature of our culture.
Fixed that.
(2.)
The worst is not the "I want what I want" but the spoiled "How dare you tell ME what I can do!" attitude.
Yup. See (1).
I don't see it as a drywall-solvable problem. I see it as a personality problem.
Those in doubt, shout it out.
(Terry said that. Feel free to quote it.)
Terry, 230RN
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I don't see it as a drywall-solvable problem. I see it as a personality problem.
See reply number 37 ...
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the neighbors need to raise enough money to surround the church with sound barrier walls (http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environment/keepdown.htm). be downright funny. [popcorn] have a double walls, a gate in the front in the outside ring and a gate in the back of the inside ring. wouldn't even have to look at them, or the ugly building*. :laugh:
*for some reason, churches like this are always in ugly buildings.
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or the ugly building*. :laugh:
*for some reason, churches like this are always in ugly buildings.
That's the style now, for church architecture.
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As promised, I just got back from walking down to the Gold Creek church to hear the music for myself at the 0900 service. As a test, I did this without wearing my bilateral hearing aids. With the aids in, I have about a 40% hearing loss; with them out, I have about a 66% hearing loss.
I could hear the music, or more accurately the bass beat, from about 200 yards away. I stood right across the street from the church (about 75 yards from the sanctuary) and the music and bass beat were louder then the infrequent passing car traffic. It was hard to really recognize it much as music, since the thumping of the bass beat predominated.
So it is now clear to me how the local neighbors, especially those with normal hearing, are upset about this. According to a story on the local CBS affiliate, the music is on Sunday mornings, Wednesday evening rehearsals and occasional Friday night concerts.
PS: And oh, before I forget, this is for Fistful: this wayward heathen Methodist did not feel an urge to convert from hearing the music.
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this wayward heathen Methodist did not feel an urge to convert from hearing the music.
No discernible gospel content? (That's a rhetorical question.)
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That's the style now, for church architecture.
Well, I wouldn't call it style. =)
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That's the style now, for church architecture.
No, it's the style now for churches that are more interested in maximizing return to the pastor/founder than in glorifying God by (among other things) caring enough to build Him a nice house in which to worship Him. Yes, I understand that He is happy when people worship Him anywhere, in any way. But I'm an olde pharte who studied the history of architecture in Europe. Those magnificent Gothic cathedrals in England, France and Germany (particularly) were built by pious people who viewed it as their duty to create structures suitable for God. Most, if not all, of the great cathedrals took generations and even lifetimes to complete. There were any number of master stonemasons and journeymen who spent their entire working life doing nothing but working on one cathedral -- and they might have died without seeing it completed.
That would be unheard of in today's world where everyone wants instant gratification. The new style independent churches are not interested in glorifying God, they just want a roof to shed the rain while they pass the collection platter. I have personally seen churches of this type make a huge issue out of being asked to even comply with the building code -- which is universally deemed a "minimum" standard for safety. They argued that complying with the "minimum" standard was going to cost "too much," so they should be exempt because they're a church. [Love thy neighbor but screw thy parishioners, I guess.]
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I could hear the music, or more accurately the bass beat, from about 200 yards away. I stood right across the street from the church (about 75 yards from the sanctuary) and the music and bass beat were louder then the infrequent passing car traffic. It was hard to really recognize it much as music, since the thumping of the bass beat predominated.
Yeah, that is un-neighborly. Turn the amp back from "eleven," Nigel.
PS: And oh, before I forget, this is for Fistful: this wayward heathen Methodist did not feel an urge to convert from hearing the music.
Heh.
"The Wesley is strong in this one."
Oh, I recall going to Savannah, GA, and seeing a JW statue. Here it is:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2F6%2F60%2FJohnWesleySavannah.jpg&hash=ddd330217a914b348031f2641f80cc0eb2f967ec)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wesley#Mission_in_Georgia
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No, it's the style now for churches that are more interested in maximizing return to the pastor/founder than in glorifying God by (among other things) caring enough to build Him a nice house in which to worship Him. Yes, I understand that He is happy when people worship Him anywhere, in any way.
That would be unheard of in today's world where everyone wants instant gratification. The new style independent churches are not interested in glorifying God, they just want a roof to shed the rain while they pass the collection platter. I have personally seen churches of this type make a huge issue out of being asked to even comply with the building code -- which is universally deemed a "minimum" standard for safety. They argued that complying with the "minimum" standard was going to cost "too much," so they should be exempt because they're a church. [Love thy neighbor but screw thy parishioners, I guess.]
I'm afraid you can't tell all that just from the type of building a church uses. Believe it or not, there are churches that start with minimal funding and need an inexpensive place to meet. Renting is an option, but rental places are not usually traditional church buildings, either. And speaking of instant gratification, the sooner the church has a permanent building, the sooner the church can move ahead with its intended ministries, or quit wasting money on rent.
The church I'm going to right now moved from rental space to rental space, until we would have been glad to have any building at all to meet in. Fortunately, we were able to build a very picturesque, colonial-style brick building. But that was not easy. Maybe the complaints about code compliance are due to the fact that cities do not earn tax revenue from churches, so may not feel any incentive to make the inspection/permit process any easier. Then again, that may just be speculation.
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Maybe the complaints about code compliance are due to the fact that cities do not earn tax revenue from churches, so may not feel any incentive to make the inspection/permit process any easier. Then again, that may just be speculation.
That is right on the money.
I've sat through planning commission and city council meetings when that exact opposition was articulated in votes against a zoning variance that would allow a church to meet in an existing building in an industrially zoned district.
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Let me add one more thing I just learned from my morning Bible study....
If you're abused because of Christ, count yourself fortunate. It's the Spirit of God and his glory in you that brought you to the notice of others. If they're on you because you broke the law or disturbed the peace, that's a different matter. But if it's because you're a Christian, don't give it a second thought. Be proud of the distinguished status reflected in that name!
No one is ever saved by obnoxiousness....
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And speaking of instant gratification, the sooner the church has a permanent building, the sooner the church can move ahead with its intended ministries, or quit wasting money on rent.
And start spending money on a mortgage.
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And start spending money on a mortgage.
Start paying off the loan for the construction cost, more like.
Do you think churches should rent, when they could own their own property? Why?
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No, it's the style now for churches that are more interested in maximizing return to the pastor/founder than in glorifying God by (among other things) caring enough to build Him a nice house in which to worship Him.
Personally, I've always considered impressive church buildings as being focused more on glorifying the human church leadership than God.
Those magnificent Gothic cathedrals in England, France and Germany (particularly) were built by pious people who viewed it as their duty to create structures suitable for God. Most, if not all, of the great cathedrals took generations and even lifetimes to complete. There were any number of master stonemasons and journeymen who spent their entire working life doing nothing but working on one cathedral -- and they might have died without seeing it completed.
Having seen a few of those fantastic cathedrals in person, I certainly can appreciate the magnificence of the architecture and the incredible human undertaking it represents, but I'm not as convinced of the piety of the men who commissioned their construction. Even a cursory study of the role of the church in European politics will disabuse you of the notion that the folks who built those churches were selflessly trying to glorify God.
That would be unheard of in today's world where everyone wants instant gratification. The new style independent churches are not interested in glorifying God, they just want a roof to shed the rain while they pass the collection platter.
Sure, there are churches that are just as you describe - and I agree that they are scum. However, scum build pretty churches too.