The little light bulb goes on...

[K Frame]

Oh please yourself.

The Koran is full of admonitions and exhortations to Muslims to kill unbelievers in the name of Allah, that it is an Islamic duty to do so if they won't accept Allah as the one true God.

The Koran has fueled modern Holy War among numerous groups who use its teachings as license for terrorism around the world, promising those who die in the struggle against unbelievers paradise in heaven (specifically called out in a number of places in the Koran).

Is that any different than how the Bible was interpreted in years past?

No.

But I don't live in years past. I live in the here and now. I'm more interested in what's happening today than I am in historical discussions on this particular point. I guess that mentality comes about from having lost friends, schoolmates, and acquaintances to those who have swallowed the Holy War line.

[Iain]

If your argument is that the quotations you used are taken out of context by radicals and used to justify the killing of non-muslims then you are making a reasonable point.

However, like Fitna, your original post was not that subtle, and your second looks a bit post hoc whether you meant it that way or not:

...when they have the "how to" manual of their own...

[K Frame]

Yes it's a "how to" manual.

It's a 'how to' manual of their faith.

I fail to see what's quite so horrible about saying that.

Unless it might piss off the radical Muslims. Big deal, they're already pissed off, and were long before I ever read the Koran.


I've come to the conclusion that within my lifetime there's going to be a monumental war between radical Islam and the "Unbelievers" that's going to make World War II look like a trip to the candy shop.

And every day I'm less and less certain that the West has the will and abilities to fight such a war in the manner that it will have to be fought -- absolutely ruthlessly. The west is losing its ability to think it terms of long-term survival.

[280plus]

The west is losing has lost its ability to think it terms of long-term survival.

Fixed it for you. 

[Manedwolf]

I've come to the conclusion that within my lifetime there's going to be a monumental war between radical Islam and the "Unbelievers" that's going to make World War II look like a trip to the candy shop.

Ironically, the first victims to be eradicated will be Muslims whom the radicals have declared are not "Islamic enough". This already occurs every day in the places they've taken over. Muslims are beaten and killed for watching movies, watching a football match, selling music, playing music, creating art, depicting people in art, not covering their head, not praying five times a day, and for associating with non-Muslims...

They'll be first casualities. Next will be innocent civilians in those nations that have decided that appeasement might work this time, even though it hasn't worked any other time.

Europe has no Charlemagne. Not this time.

[Bigjake]

Europe has no Charlemagne. Not this time.

Or a Martel.

[seeker_two]

Or a Martel.

...or a Vlad Tepes....

[K Frame]

Hell, I'd settle for an Aethelraed the Unready, but given what went on in France a couple of years ago even he's out to lunch.

[crawdaddyjim]

Oh, I don't know. Merkel might just be up to the job. She is a pretty tough cookie for what constitutes a German conservative.

Jim

[Manedwolf]

Oh, I don't know. Merkel might just be up to the job. She is a pretty tough cookie for what constitutes a German conservative.

Jim

At least she fended off a backrub assault...

[De Selby]

There's a reason why the lists of quotes from the Quran you find on the internet to supposedly prove its commands to kill are always edited: You have to remove the part where it says "but don't attack anyone who isn't attacking you; you can only attack people in self-defense" that comes with every such statement. 

To say that the Quran was ever interpreted to command "killing all the nonbelievers" is patently untrue.  Again, that doesn't mean that Bin Laden isn't a religious fanatic, it doesn't mean that all those who claim to act in the name of Islam are good people.  But none of those people, even the terrorists themselves, make the claim that their religion commands them to "kill everyone who isn't a non-believer."

No such sect, terrorist movement, or theology exists in the religion.  And that makes sense, given that the Quran is quite clear in imposing limits on warfare. 

The closest thing to the western equivalent of killing all the non-christians in Europe would be the sectarian wars between Muslims: the Quran is clear that you can't kill people for being non-Muslim, however, it is not so charitable towards Muslims with unorthodox teachings.  That is why, for example, you had conquests where Shia and Sunni wiped each other out and converted whole populations by force, yet left Christians and Jews in those same lands unconverted.

It isn't even really a debate; there's no one with the "kill non believers" position in the game.

[280plus]

According to YOUR interpretation that is. There are certainly fanatics out there who interpret it differently or take passages out of context to suit their particular beliefs and needs. The same is done with the bible. Unfortunately, this is not a perfect world we live in.

[De Selby]

According to YOUR interpretation that is. There are certainly fanatics out there who interpret it differently or take passages out of context to suit their particular beliefs and needs. The same is done with the bible. Unfortunately, this is not a perfect world we live in.

Yeah, my point was that there are no factions in Islam that hold the "kill them all!" interpretation-not even Bin Laden.  The only place it exists is on the internet at websites like "jihadwatch." 

Certainly the fanatics interpret it differently, but "kill all the unbelievers" is simply not (and never has been) a principle they claim to support with the Quran.  The actual theological debate is about "total war" versus "only on the battlefield"-Bin Laden claims that in a war, all citizens of the opposing country are legitimate targets.  More traditional scholars argue that only soldiers on the battlefield are legitimate targets. 

But no school, movement, or figure exists claiming that the Quran actually commands killing all non-believers.  Even the psychos and terrorists.

[Viking]

Yes it's a "how to" manual.

It's a 'how to' manual of their faith.

I fail to see what's quite so horrible about saying that.

Unless it might piss off the radical Muslims. Big deal, they're already pissed off, and were long before I ever read the Koran.


I've come to the conclusion that within my lifetime there's going to be a monumental war between radical Islam and the "Unbelievers" that's going to make World War II look like a trip to the candy shop.

And every day I'm less and less certain that the West has the will and abilities to fight such a war in the manner that it will have to be fought -- absolutely ruthlessly. The west is losing its ability to think it terms of long-term survival.

I agree with you on the first, ie that we will see war between the Western World and radical Islamists. I don't quite agree with the idea that the West has lost it's ability to to fight a ruthless war for survival. Our politicians have, for sure. They are blinded by their multicultural delusion, they think that if we just get together to sing "Kumbayah" or "We shall overcome", then everything will be alright. The man on the street has a more realistic view of it though, what with having to live in a multicultural hell, unlike the politicians & journalists who live in ethnically cleansed enclaves. Even my leftist parents are complaining about the fact that we aren't allowed to defend ourselves...the lightbulb seems to have lit up.

[280plus]

But no school, movement, or figure exists claiming that the Quran actually commands killing all non-believers.  Even the psychos and terrorists.

I find it hard to believe that not even one radical Muslim out there doesn't think this way. But, of course, I have no proof.

[K Frame]

Once again, a monumental fail to grasp the point - jihadist interpretation of the Koran - by the excuser of all things Muslim...




"I find it hard to believe that not even one radical Muslim out there doesn't think this way. But, of course, I have no proof."

That's because they have willing mouthpieces/apologists/excusers/enablers to spread their... whatever...


"I don't quite agree with the idea that the West has lost it's ability to to fight a ruthless war for survival. Our politicians have, for sure. They are blinded by their multicultural delusion, they think that if we just get together to sing "Kumbayah" or "We shall overcome", then everything will be alright."

Unfortunately I can't agree with you anymore. The evidence in that can be seen by the relative reactions of far too many people when presented with two different cases:

1. A fanatic blows himself up, along with a few dozen others, including women and children on their way to market, or prayer, or whatever, and far too many people simply shrug their shoulders and accept it as a fact of life.

2. A US military missile strike on a know terrorist leader's location, which kills the leader but also kills women an children associated with his little clique, is roundly denounced as cruel use of oppressive force by many of the same people, while virtually no one sees the big picture outcome.

I truly think that Britain was, and likely always will be, the last Western nation to prosecute a war (the communist insurrection Malaya) to prosecute a war with the ruthlessness necessary to ensure a positive outcome.

[Manedwolf]

Their "heroes".

TENGGULUN, Indonesia (Reuters) - Three Indonesian militants executed on Sunday for the 2002 Bali bombings were buried by their families at ceremonies attended by thousands of supporters shouting "Allahu akbar" (God is greatest).

In an interview with Reuters last year, the militants said their only regret was that some Muslims were killed.

Emotions ran high as thousands of people poured onto the streets for the funerals after the bodies were flown by helicopter to their home towns -- brothers Mukhlas and Amrozi to Tenggulun in East Java, and Samudra to Serang in West Java.

About 3,000 people gathered when Samudra's body, covered in a black shroud with Islamic inscriptions, was carried to a mosque. Some jostled to touch the body or help carry the bier.

In Tenggulun, thousands of militant Islamists from various groups had gathered, shadowed by armed police.

People chanted "Goodbye Syuhada (heroes)" and "Allahu akbar" as the bodies of Mukhlas and Amrozi were taken from the mosque to an Islamic boarding school where controversial cleric Abu Bakar Bashir led prayers for the brothers.

I fully expect that someday, we are going to be fighting this sort in the streets of the United States. Or just watching as malls and stadiums start blowing up.

http://www.reuters.com/article/wtMostRead/idUSTRE4A72OX20081109

[280plus]

So the people killed in that club must have been occupying Muslim territory or oppressing the Muslim religion, because the Koran prohibits killing for any other reason but those. Interesting.

I fully expect that someday, we are going to be fighting this sort in the streets of the United States. Or just watching as malls and stadiums start blowing up.

Only if we relax our offense and drop our guard. Then I could see that happening. I think Obama, now that he is privy to the same info Bush is, has also had the little light bulb suddenly go on. He seems changed already if you ask me. Only time will tell.

[K Frame]

"So the people killed in that club must have been occupying Muslim territory or oppressing the Muslim religion, because the Koran prohibits killing for any other reason but those. Interesting."

Oh they was wicked evil sinful people just crushing Allah's will.

Enjoying themselves. Wicked evil sinful!

Drinking alcohol. Wicked evil sinful!

Consorting with women. Wicked evil sinful!

Viewing women as sex objects. Wicked evil sinful!

Viewing women as anything other than simple objects. Wicked evil sinful!

Being non-jihadi, non-murderous, non-Muslims? Super duper wicked evil sinful!


Great. The government flew these bastards back to their homes and plopped them down right in front of thousands of adoring fans who are lamenting the loss of such misunderstood, upright, and moral youths. How to make a martyr in one easy step.

[280plus]

Instant Glorification? 

[Bigjake]

Does it make me some sort of evil sociopath to think a daisy cutter on said crowd is an appropriate response?

It seems like the proper, measured response that's just ruthless enough to get them to take us seriously.

Added,

Anybody else miss fighting a halfway civilized adversary, like the Germans? 

[RocketMan]

Does it make me some sort of evil sociopath to think a daisy cutter on said crowd is an appropriate response?

It seems like the proper, measured response that's just ruthless enough to get them to take us seriously.

While it might give us a little short term satisfaction, Bigjake, I suspect we would just create another batch of martyrs, give them an additional excuse for jihad.

[Manedwolf]

Other powers have fought barbaric extremists before.

Look up what the British did to the violent Thugee cult that literally believed it was part of their religion to rob and kill travellers.

[Bigjake]

While it might give us a little short term satisfaction, Bigjake, I suspect we would just create another batch of martyrs, give them an additional excuse for jihad.

That's where I'm honestly confused.  They already hate our guts, and they drew first blood, so wouldn't bombing a crowd of the people that support suicide bombing be a good thing?

 How many in the crowd would happily bomb another night club or hotel without a second thought, to avenge their buddies?

Seriously, I wasn't making the comment out of random blood lust or want of payback. 

[Gewehr98]

Anybody else miss fighting a halfway civilized adversary, like the Krauts?

I dunno, this particular German descendant wonders why you didn't consider your audience in a public forum before throwing that ethnic slur in there...

(IOW, we're not bashing SS for being Muslim, and we never will at APS.  We're picking apart his flawed defense and way-too-obvious appearance of being an Islamic Extremist apologist - and there is a difference)