Author Topic: The little light bulb goes on...  (Read 21401 times)

Bigjake

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Re: The little light bulb goes on...
« Reply #75 on: November 09, 2008, 03:02:19 PM »
I dunno, this particular German descendant wonders why you didn't consider your audience in a public forum before throwing that ethnic slur in there...

Guess if figured it was like blacks calling each other "N***er"

  I'm from Irish and German stock on one side, and pretty much all German on the other.  To the point that I had a great great uncle that fought with the badguys in WW2.

Sorry for the misunderstanding, that was meant more as a term of endearment rather than a slur.

Gewehr98

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Re: The little light bulb goes on...
« Reply #76 on: November 09, 2008, 03:26:16 PM »
I figured as much - but the big picture here at APS means we have a diversity of members, and some may not be so accommodating.

Know what I mean?  ;)
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grislyatoms

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Re: The little light bulb goes on...
« Reply #77 on: November 09, 2008, 03:30:35 PM »
I think I have a bar of Lifebuoy around here somewhere... =D
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richyoung

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Re: The little light bulb goes on...
« Reply #78 on: November 09, 2008, 03:38:29 PM »
Does it make me some sort of evil sociopath to think a daisy cutter on said crowd is an appropriate response?

Yes.  And exactly the kind of sociopath Western society needs in a leadership position right now. 
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280plus

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Re: The little light bulb goes on...
« Reply #79 on: November 09, 2008, 05:02:58 PM »
I always thought the appropriate first move on our part was to drop a big one on the screaming crowds that were celebrating the effects of 911 immediately afterwards. Woulda saved a lotta time and effort in the long run. I have no quarrel with moderate Muslims, it's the extremists I have a problem with.
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De Selby

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Re: The little light bulb goes on...
« Reply #80 on: November 09, 2008, 05:29:53 PM »
I dunno, this particular German descendant wonders why you didn't consider your audience in a public forum before throwing that ethnic slur in there...

(IOW, we're not bashing SS for being Muslim, and we never will at APS.  We're picking apart his flawed defense and way-too-obvious appearance of being an Islamic Extremist apologist - and there is a difference)

Let's be clear here: I do not, and could not if I wanted to, defend Islamic extremists.  It is beyond obvious that there is Islamic religious violence. 

However, that doesn't mean that anything said about their insane beliefs is true.  The summary that I think is most accurate is one I found on the Army's professional writing website, and that I will repost:  http://www.army.mil/professionalwriting/volumes/volume3/october_2005/10_05_3.html

The proof that no group in Islam teaches that the Quran commands killing all non-believers is in the absence of any movement-Bin Laden's included-that has tendered any such teaching/statement/interpretation.

They are still murderers and criminals, and religious fanatics.  My point here is that the "kill all the infidels" logic is not what motivates them.  That's not what they're saying, to each other or to anyone else, and claiming that they do believe that does not help to stop terrorism. 

An accurate account of the ideology that motivates these crimes is not an excuse.  I don't think anyone believes the terrorists should not be punished for their crimes, or that they aren't a threat to peace.  But the fact that they are religious crazies and murderers does not mean any and all statements about their beliefs are true.

I do not think anyone has bashed me for being Muslim, btw, and I appreciate the respect and protection for my beliefs I receive as an American, and that most Muslims in the world do not get...even in "muslim" countries.  There's no debate there either.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Bigjake

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Re: The little light bulb goes on...
« Reply #81 on: November 09, 2008, 05:38:05 PM »
Let's be clear here: I do not, and could not if I wanted to, defend Islamic extremists.  It is beyond obvious that there is Islamic religious violence. 


What Islamic Extremists?  :O

Bigjake

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Re: The little light bulb goes on...
« Reply #82 on: November 09, 2008, 11:24:54 PM »
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,449149,00.html

FOXNews.com
Bomb Attacks at Iraq Hospital, Market Kill Five

Sunday , November 09, 2008

AP
ADVERTISEMENT

BAGHDAD —
Bombing attacks at a hospital and a market place Sunday killed five people and wounded at least 18 others in Iraq, police and hospital officials said.

A bomb hidden beneath a pile of garbage exploded near a public health clinic packed with patients in a market in Khalis, some 50 miles north of Baghdad, police said.

Two people were killed and 13 wounded in the attack, which officials said was targeting the town mayor who was touring the market at the time of the blast.

The second attack came when a female suicide bomber blew herself up at a hospital in Amiriyat al-Fallujah in Anbar province near the city of Fallujah, about 40 miles west of Baghdad.

Two women and a 10-year-old girl were killed in the attack, while five people — including a doctor and her husband — were injured, police said.

The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to release the information.

The attack in Amiriyat al-Fallujah follows a suicide bombing on Saturday that killed eight people and wounded 17 at a police checkpoint near Ramadi, which is also located in Anbar.

The violence comes two months after the U.S. handed control of the province over to the Iraqis and shows that militants have still not given up the fight despite setbacks at the hands of U.S. and Iraqi forces.

In the northern city of Mosul, which has seen a spike in violence in recent months, two bombings killed three Iraqi soldiers and wounded 15 people, including five policemen.

Meanwhile, Iraq's Cabinet held a special session to discuss the 2009 draft budget in light of the world financial crisis and slumping world oil prices, government spokesman Ali al-Dabbagh said in a statement.

The Finance Ministry has proposed a 2009 draft budget of $68.7 billion and a deficit of $15.6 billion, al-Dabbagh said in a statement.

The statement did not say whether the Cabinet also discussed the U.S. response to proposed changes to a new security deal that would keep U.S. troops in the country until the end of 2011. On Thursday, the U.S. delivered what it calls its final reply to Iraqi amendments to the deal.

Iraq's Cabinet must sign off on the agreement before sending it to parliament for a final decision.

The draft agreement that has drawn sharp criticism from Iraqi *expletive deleted*it clerics and *expletive deleted*it-dominated Iran.

Tehran's closest Arab ally, Syria, lashed out against the pact Sunday.

Syrian President Bashar Assad said U.S. troops contribute to regional instability and should pull out of Iraq as soon as possible.

Assad pointed to a recent American cross-border raid into Syria as evidence that the U.S. will use Iraq as a base to attack its neighbors.

The U.S. has accused both of supporting insurgents — charges both countries deny.

"The latest American aggression on Syrian territory shows that the presence of American occupation forces constitutes a source of continuous threat to the security of Iraq's neighboring states and a factor of instability for the region," he said.

Iraq has asked the U.S. for an explicit ban in the proposed security pact on the use of Iraqi soil for attacks against the country's neighbors. The U.S. has replied to the request, but the details are not known.

The Iraqi parliament must approve the agreement by year's end when a U.N. mandate expires. Failure to approve the agreement or get the U.N. Security Council to issue a new mandate would force the U.S. to suspend operations in the country.

280plus

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Re: The little light bulb goes on...
« Reply #83 on: November 09, 2008, 11:34:35 PM »
  
Quote
My point here is that the "kill all the infidels" logic is not what motivates them.
While I don't claim to completely understand all I have just read through the first time here what I gather from it is they have a problem with the "near enemy" because they do not submit to the extreme views that they have in their religious beliefs and therefore, by extension, they have a problem with us, the "far enemy" because we support the "near enemy". Would you say that was a fair synopsis so far? There is more I'm trying to put my finger on but I don't think I'm quite grasping it yet. I want to reread that again before I go further, so let's just start there and see if I've gotten it so far.
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De Selby

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Re: The little light bulb goes on...
« Reply #84 on: November 10, 2008, 12:38:52 AM »
 While I don't claim to completely understand all I have just read through the first time here what I gather from it is they have a problem with the "near enemy" because they do not submit to the extreme views that they have in their religious beliefs and therefore, by extension, they have a problem with us, the "far enemy" because we support the "near enemy". Would you say that was a fair synopsis so far? There is more I'm trying to put my finger on but I don't think I'm quite grasping it yet. I want to reread that again before I go further, so let's just start there and see if I've gotten it so far.

I think that's pretty accurate to what some of them say.  But they tend to view religious extremism as a means of defeating (in their view) colonial powers and their domestic agents; the extremism and the "get the occupiers out" go hand in hand in that respect. 

In other words, they think that by promoting religious extremism, their countries will be independent and have populations that are less likely to submit to foreign demands.  It's very similar to the ultra-nationalism that sprang up in the former colonies around the world, like Vietnam.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

K Frame

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Re: The little light bulb goes on...
« Reply #85 on: November 10, 2008, 12:49:41 AM »
"I dunno, this particular German descendant wonders why you didn't consider your audience in a public forum before throwing that ethnic slur in there..."

I come from over 300 years of Pennsylvania German ancestry, and I don't for a moment consider the term "kraut" to be an ethnic slur...

It might be a pejorative based on a national identity, in the same way that a Brit might consider Limey to be derogatory...
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taurusowner

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Re: The little light bulb goes on...
« Reply #86 on: November 10, 2008, 12:56:41 AM »
Soldiers have been giving nicknames to the enemy for centuries.  Kraut, Jerry, Charlie, and now Hajji.  It even works on Americans, Doughboy from WWI, and Yanks from WWII.  No offensive is really meant.  Maybe I just don't believe in being overly sensitive.

280plus

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Re: The little light bulb goes on...
« Reply #87 on: November 10, 2008, 06:01:28 AM »
Call me a dumb guinea anytime but please smile while you're doing it.  :laugh:
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RocketMan

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Re: The little light bulb goes on...
« Reply #88 on: November 10, 2008, 07:38:19 AM »
You can call me a "dumb Kraut", and you'd be mostly right on both counts.  :laugh:
(There's a little Scandanavian and English stuff mixed in there, too.)
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280plus

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Re: The little light bulb goes on...
« Reply #89 on: November 10, 2008, 07:47:07 AM »
I believe I can speak for us all when I say calling us "late for dinner" is not an option.  :police:

 =D
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280plus

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Re: The little light bulb goes on...
« Reply #90 on: November 10, 2008, 07:54:23 AM »
Anyways, after further thought, SS, would it then be fair to say that while "killing them all" may not be the correct way to put it would "killing as many as necessary to achieve our goals" be more accurate? And, taking it further, "if it takes killing them all to achieve these goals, then, oh well" ?

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De Selby

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Re: The little light bulb goes on...
« Reply #91 on: November 10, 2008, 08:22:55 AM »
Anyways, after further thought, SS, would it then be fair to say that while "killing them all" may not be the correct way to put it would "killing as many as necessary to achieve our goals" be more accurate? And, taking it further, "if it takes killing them all to achieve these goals, then, oh well" ?



Further, even:  The terrorists tend to say "it absolutely will take killing people to achieve our goals, and those people deserve it because they voted to support the occupations."

Which is why their beliefs are completely insane-even if you grant them the argument that their countries have been occupied and oppressed, how does killing thousands of people who are just going to work in the morning become the answer? 

Mass murder of innocent people doesn't become justified because someone else caused you harm in some roundabout way. 
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

MicroBalrog

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Re: The little light bulb goes on...
« Reply #92 on: November 10, 2008, 08:56:19 AM »
You know, it is possible to agree that some of the grievances these people have against 'us' are legitimate grievances, even while hating the terrorists and despising their ideology.

Yes, sometimes the West does wrong to people in these countries. Perhaps it'd be wiser NOT to do so. To say that does not mean I am 'blaming America' or justifying the terrorist attacks.
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Manedwolf

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Re: The little light bulb goes on...
« Reply #93 on: November 10, 2008, 09:18:04 AM »
You know, it is possible to agree that some of the grievances these people have against 'us' are legitimate grievances, even while hating the terrorists and despising their ideology.

Yes, sometimes the West does wrong to people in these countries. Perhaps it'd be wiser NOT to do so. To say that does not mean I am 'blaming America' or justifying the terrorist attacks.

And I think you're experiencing a variant on Stockholm syndrome.

K Frame

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Re: The little light bulb goes on...
« Reply #94 on: November 10, 2008, 12:10:03 PM »
"Yes, sometimes the West does wrong to people in these countries. Perhaps it'd be wiser NOT to do so. To say that does not mean I am 'blaming America' or justifying the terrorist attacks."

So... I should stop being a Christian and convert to Islam just because I'm doing something wrong?

Face it, you can do eveything right and STILL piss people off, because they get the impression that what you did favored someone else a little more than them.

Case in point, fighter jets.

We sell fighter jets to the Saudis.

We sell the exact same fighter jets to the Isralies.

People in both nations are not supremely pissed at us because we didn't favor them exclusively.

At least, however, the Isralies are generally rational and sane about it, it doesn't make them carry out suicide bombings to express their displeasure.
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