The latest liberal plan to make a mess of cities...

[Manedwolf]

"Pay as you throw" trash. They proposed it here, it was shot down for now. With overwhelming force, so they know not to ask We The People anymore, they'll probably try another means.

Do they not even think? "Oh, yes, make people pay $1.50 for EACH BAG OF TRASH they throw out, they have to buy special tags! Saves from global warming, yaaay!"

What is that going to cause?



Trash out windows on dark streets. Pickup trucks of trash dumped anywhere. Stuff in someone else's dumpster.

Oh, but you'd have to stop and think to realize that!

[jamz]

You still pay for it, just out of property tax or something.

We have it here in our town, I avoid it and just drive stuff to the dump every few weeks.

[Werewolf]

When I lived in Pensacola you had to pay for a private garbage collection service where I lived.

Screw that. I was in the Navy at the time; loaded up a trash bag or two in the trunk and put it in a Navy dumptser.

In Oklahoma City where I am now trash pickup is part of the water utility system along with sewage. All three charges can be seen on the bill.

Which is preferable? Don't know. If a private collector is more efficient and cheaper I suppose that is and these days I'd do that. Thought differently 28 years ago - believed adamantly that garbage collection was the goobermint's job.

[Perd Hapley]

Since the OP didn't mention any specific plan, or other details, I guess we don't have much to argue about.  We'll make do, anyway. 

If people have to pay per bag, and have nice little tags on each one, it sounds like fail.  Like the man said, stuff will be abandoned or, at best, thrown in someone else's dumpster. 

[Declaration Day]

Our trash collection comes out of our property taxes.  If my city instituted a pay-per-bag system,  I'd probably burn nearly all of it in my backyard firepit, and bag up only what doesn't burn.

[HankB]

I remember when they passed a law in Minnesota requiring you to pay $ when getting rid of an old tire. Almost like throwing a switch, you started seeing more tires along the roadside.

[lee n. field]

Do they not even think? "Oh, yes, make people pay $1.50 for EACH BAG OF TRASH they throw out, they have to buy special tags! Saves from global warming, yaaay!"

<shrug>.  That's pretty much how it's worked here since before we moved here.  You get a certain amount free (one bag?  two?), and for every extra bag of trash you have to buy a tag.

[BridgeRunner]

We have the option of using a similar system here.  You can buy special bags from the city for about $2 each, or you can rent a bin from the city.  There's also the option of using a private company.  We use a private company because it is a little cheaper and the bins are easier to handle.  One annoyance is that each neighborhood has three trash pick-up days.  When kiddo was tiny and we were home most days I grew to hate it, because the trucks regularly woke her up in the middle of a nap.   Other than that, it's pretty nice to have choices.  It is another expense though.  We spend about $25/month, iirc.  We pay quarterly.

[Nitrogen]

Sounds closer to a free market solution to me, actually.  Pay for what you actually throw out, instead of a flat fee.

If you conserve, you throw out less, and pay less.

Of course, as you point out, there's plenty of ways to cheat.  If someone left that kind of mess, I'd put each item in one bag, and charge them for 30 bags or something.  "If you make us bag your garbate, there's a $20 per bag bagging fee" etc.

[Boomhauer]

Of course, as you point out, there's plenty of ways to cheat.  If someone left that kind of mess, I'd put each item in one bag, and charge them for 30 bags or something.  "If you make us bag your garbate, there's a $20 per bag bagging fee" etc.

What happens when the ahole neighbor down the street decides to toss his garbage in your spot?

[BridgeRunner]

What happens when the ahole neighbor down the street decides to toss his garbage in your spot?

Well, I think that's why these kinds of pay-per-bag systems require you to pay when you buy the bags, rather than get billed based on what is by your house.

[Manedwolf]

Well, I think that's why these kinds of pay-per-bag systems require you to pay when you buy the bags, rather than get billed based on what is by your house.

And what does that do when the ahole neighbor tosses their garbage in your spot?

They don't pick it up, and you have nice trash on your curb that you have to deal with, or they pick it up and give you a fine.

I'm picturing a lot of less civilized households disposing of their kitchen waste at 55mph on the highway at night. And in the city, just down the alley, like medieval London.

[MicroBalrog]

My neighborhood looks far worse than this. And we have government-provided free trash collection.

[Declaration Day]

My neighborhood looks far worse than this. And we have government-provided free trash collection.

Oh no my friend, you paid for it, they just aren't doing their job.

[MicroBalrog]

Oh no my friend, you paid for it, they just aren't doing their job.

I should have typed "free". :D

But it's not just the government. It's people doing stuff like dumping their garbage where the city's dumpster USED to be, after it is moved twenty yards, rather than walking twenty more yards to the dumpster. Or dropping it on their own front lawn.

[Nitrogen]

What happens when the ahole neighbor down the street decides to toss his garbage in your spot?

Hell if I know.  My neighborhood charges me a flat fee per garbage can I have, and each can has a weight limit.
Whoever the free-market provider of trash services was, they wouldn't care about a neighbor dumping trash in your yard.  That'd be a matter between you and the neighbor and possibly the police.

I'm more surprised more people don't go for the per-bag method; it's a free market solution, and probably costs much less.
We ARE all about the free market here, right?

[ronnyreagan]

I'm more surprised more people don't go for the per-bag method; it's a free market solution, and probably costs much less.
We ARE all about the free market here, right?

I'm also unclear on what makes this a "liberal plan" other than Manedwolf's opposition to it. Getting rid of trash costs money whether it's fees or taxes, it's not like the garbage fairy is taking anyone's trash for free. This system seems better to me as it's payed for by the people who use it and not by the people who don't.

[BridgeRunner]

And what does that do when the ahole neighbor tosses their garbage in your spot?

They don't pick it up, and you have nice trash on your curb that you have to deal with, or they pick it up and give you a fine.

I'm picturing a lot of less civilized households disposing of their kitchen waste at 55mph on the highway at night. And in the city, just down the alley, like medieval London.

Ok, I see.  My only response is simply that is hasn't happened here.  There are some seriously crappy neighborhoods in Lansing: It is widely regarding as a decaying post-industrial mess, and to a great extent that is true.  Nonetheless, we simply don't have heaps of unclaimed trash all over the place.  There are neighborhoods where more than half the houses are in foreclosure or abandoned, and even there, people just don't dump their trash.

Should the government provide "free" lawn furniture and garbage cans, because if they don't, people would just run off with whatever they can get their hands on?  It happens sometimes.  It usually doesn't.  The government removing any element of choice or independence from lawn furniture purchases is not a good solution to the problem.

[RocketMan]

Maned, was this $1.50 over and above the rates already being charged by the trash company/service/utility?  Was it an additional per bag tax being added by the city?

[Firethorn]

This system seems better to me as it's payed for by the people who use it and not by the people who don't.

The core problem seems not to be one of charging people for what they use; but the idea that avoiding the charges by dumping your trash will become common; such that it'll cost more to innocent parties - because who wants a trashed neighborhood/city?  So they'll have to hire extra garbage men to go and pick up the dumped trash, ultimately at a higher cost and effort than simply having a 'pay a monthly fee that's hard to get out of, and they'll pick up pretty much all the garbage you want'.  Next thing you know they'll have 'dumping cams' and littering stings.   Oh yeah, and even as more people compost their food waste, more people feed more into their burn barrels, increasing air pollution.

Or at least that seems to be Manedwolf's view on it.  I can honestly see benefits to both viewpoints.  It's not really fair to somebody like me who generates a kitchen bag a week to pay the same amount as my neighbor who generates a full can(12 bags, it's a big can).  If it was possible for me to get out of paying, I'd likely to take Werewolf's path.

It's also the reason that most states, rather than having a fee charged when you dispose of a tire build the fee into the purchase of tires; then disposing of tires merely consists of taking them to one of many disposal points(basically any tire dealership or junkyard).

It works in many areas, but not all.  It really depends on the culture in the area - some areas per bag charging will work, some areas you'd get too much illegal dumping.

[roo_ster]

Wanna save money on trash pickup?

Cancel the recycling pickup and tell folks to recycle their own damn selves on their own damn dime if they so desire.

[Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas]

*blinks*
Ain't none of y'all got matches? 

We had a private party, flat rate paid - but we've since gone to burning the stuff. Compensating for the economic downturn by polluting the environment, I guess.

[Manedwolf]

*blinks*
Ain't none of y'all got matches? 

We had a private party, flat rate paid - but we've since gone to burning the stuff. Compensating for the economic downturn by polluting the environment, I guess.

The news mentioned they tried to pair it with a no-burn law. For global warming.

[BridgeRunner]

The news mentioned they tried to pair it with a no-burn law. For global warming.

I'm in favor of local no-burn laws, for approximately the same reason I'm in favor of laws preventing discharge of firearms except in designated areas or in cases of self-defense.  My city is fairly densely populated and I'm not in favor burning down a couple city blocks.
 
Government provided services that one may opt-out of are awesome.  This is like school vouchers, except for that it actually exists.   You only pay for the municipal services that you use.

If you don't like it because you think the government is not doing enough to prevent littering, then may I suggest you reconsider your labeling?  Removing a mandatory fee and creating a fee-per-use system where one may presumably opt out, opening the market up to competition and thereby incentivizing better services seems about closer to an expression of libertarian ideals than liberal ones.

An annual, across-the-board fee levied only on property owners and regardless of use is downright freaking socialist.   

If you think that system will keep your town prettier, that's fine.  But you're starting to sound pretty liberal to me....

[MicroBalrog]

So, is there a private alternative? Or are the two options available "Pay the $1.50 or rot in your own filth?"

It's only a 'libertarian' option if private people are actually able to offer an alternative option.