Author Topic: The latest liberal plan to make a mess of cities...  (Read 8476 times)

Nitrogen

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Re: The latest liberal plan to make a mess of cities...
« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2009, 12:02:15 AM »
So, is there a private alternative? Or are the two options available "Pay the $1.50 or rot in your own filth?"

It's only a 'libertarian' option if private people are actually able to offer an alternative option.

There's nothing stopping a private company from offering services, except for the fact that the across-the-fee levied is probably less than what most private companies would charge.
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El Tejon

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Re: The latest liberal plan to make a mess of cities...
« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2009, 07:09:15 AM »
Mane, why are you still posting photos of the yards of Ron Paul voters?
I do not smoke pot, wear Wookie suits, live in my mom's basement, collect unemployment checks or eat Cheetoes, therefore I am not a Ron Paul voter.

Scout26

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Re: The latest liberal plan to make a mess of cities...
« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2009, 11:31:58 AM »
Here's the system where I live.  http://www.wheaton.il.us/residents/garbage.aspx?id=952

Gabage stickers are $2.92 per a 33-34 gallon container of trash.

Recycling is free.  They even give you a big blue 55 gallon container to throw all your recyclables in.  The more you recycle the less you pay for trash. 

No open burning allowed. 

The system works.  It's a free market, pay for what you use system, as opposed to a flat fee (where small garbage producers subsidize large producers) or being buried in your property taxes.

Our family of four produces a roughly 55 gallon tote of recyclables each week and a container of trash every other week.     So our cost is ~$6.00-9.00 per month and less then a $100.00 per year.   Look at your property tax or monthly service bill and see if you can beat that.
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Manedwolf

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Re: The latest liberal plan to make a mess of cities...
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2009, 11:47:54 AM »
Here's the system where I live.  http://www.wheaton.il.us/residents/garbage.aspx?id=952

Gabage stickers are $2.92 per a 33-34 gallon container of trash.

Recycling is free.  They even give you a big blue 55 gallon container to throw all your recyclables in.  The more you recycle the less you pay for trash. 

No open burning allowed. 

The system works.  It's a free market, pay for what you use system, as opposed to a flat fee (where small garbage producers subsidize large producers) or being buried in your property taxes.

Our family of four produces a roughly 55 gallon tote of recyclables each week and a container of trash every other week.     So our cost is ~$6.00-9.00 per month and less then a $100.00 per year.   Look at your property tax or monthly service bill and see if you can beat that.

How is it a free market?

Are you allowed to choose from a number of competing trash services?

Or are you compelled to pay the government that fee to take the trash?

Scout26

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Re: The latest liberal plan to make a mess of cities...
« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2009, 12:53:57 PM »
How is it a free market?

Are you allowed to choose from a number of competing trash services?

Or are you compelled to pay the government that fee to take the trash?

It's a private company that has the contract with the city to provide the service.  Contract comes up for bid every three years.  Veolia just got it, prior to that Waste Management had it.  And we don't pay the fee to government.  We buy garbage stickers from local retailers (grocery, Hardware convienence stores, etc.).  The money goes to the garbage hauling company.   Yes, I'm sure the city gets a cut in the form of a haulin' tax, but if you produce no trash, you pay no fee and your recyclables get hauled away for free.   I suppose it would be better if several companies were allowed to haul garbage, but then they'd be tempted to steal each others recyclables.
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

MicroBalrog

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Re: The latest liberal plan to make a mess of cities...
« Reply #30 on: February 02, 2009, 12:56:50 PM »
Veolia is a great company. But it's still not a free market. It's a government-enforced monopoly.
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Nitrogen

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Re: The latest liberal plan to make a mess of cities...
« Reply #31 on: February 02, 2009, 02:38:11 PM »
Veolia is a great company. But it's still not a free market. It's a government-enforced monopoly.

Sure it's a free market.  You can take your garbage anywhere you want, as long as you pay for it, if you don;t like the company that the Government has chosen to provide the service.
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Firethorn

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Re: The latest liberal plan to make a mess of cities...
« Reply #32 on: February 02, 2009, 03:00:35 PM »
I'm in favor of local no-burn laws, for approximately the same reason I'm in favor of laws preventing discharge of firearms except in designated areas or in cases of self-defense.  My city is fairly densely populated and I'm not in favor burning down a couple city blocks.

Or the potentially toxic fumes as they toss EVERYTHING into the barrel, to include stuff like plastics and clothing with flame retardants.  It takes more to get them burning, but they'll burn nasty when they do.
 
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but then they'd be tempted to steal each others recyclables.

Most of those recyclables cost more to dispose of than the plain garbage, so you might be surprised.  Unless the city's paying a bounty per ton or something.

Quote
If you don't like it because you think the government is not doing enough to prevent littering, then may I suggest you reconsider your labeling?  Removing a mandatory fee and creating a fee-per-use system where one may presumably opt out, opening the market up to competition and thereby incentivizing better services seems about closer to an expression of libertarian ideals than liberal ones.

The problem comes not from dickering between a company that wants $1.50 a bag and another that wants $2.92 for a can, the problem comes from people that like the $0 price of just tossing it out on some random street/highway.  It's like illegal downloading; there's no way to catch any but a small fraction of the dumpers/downloaders.  At least not without extraordinary cost.

BridgeRunner

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Re: The latest liberal plan to make a mess of cities...
« Reply #33 on: February 02, 2009, 05:27:40 PM »
The problem comes not from dickering between a company that wants $1.50 a bag and another that wants $2.92 for a can, the problem comes from people that like the $0 price of just tossing it out on some random street/highway.  It's like illegal downloading; there's no way to catch any but a small fraction of the dumpers/downloaders.  At least not without extraordinary cost.

Sounds like Maned's solution is that no one is allowed to offer downloads except the government, and then they have to charge everyone an annual download fee in exchange for as much downloading as anyone decides they needs. 

Tell me again how that is a politically conservative plan?

doczinn

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Re: The latest liberal plan to make a mess of cities...
« Reply #34 on: February 02, 2009, 07:55:21 PM »
Quote
Sounds closer to a free market solution to me, actually.
You mean except for the part where there's no competitor doing it for less?

Quote
There's nothing stopping a private company from offering services, except for the fact that the across-the-fee levied is probably less than what most private companies would charge.
Give me a stakebed, and I could get 100 bags (give or take) in one load, for a dollar a bag, include the trip to the dump (can I dump it for free like the city can?) and I can still get $40-$100 per hour depending on neighborhood. Add a truck and pay a coupla guys $10/hr to pick up for me, and pretty soon I'm rolling in dough.

Less than a private company would charge? Doubt it.

Quote
Sure it's a free market
I do not think that word means what you think it means.
D. R. ZINN

BridgeRunner

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Re: The latest liberal plan to make a mess of cities...
« Reply #35 on: February 02, 2009, 08:28:05 PM »
You mean except for the part where there's no competitor doing it for less?

Yet.  Wait a month.

Nitrogen

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Re: The latest liberal plan to make a mess of cities...
« Reply #36 on: February 02, 2009, 08:33:21 PM »
You mean except for the part where there's no competitor doing it for less?
Give me a stakebed, and I could get 100 bags (give or take) in one load, for a dollar a bag, include the trip to the dump (can I dump it for free like the city can?) and I can still get $40-$100 per hour depending on neighborhood. Add a truck and pay a coupla guys $10/hr to pick up for me, and pretty soon I'm rolling in dough.

Less than a private company would charge? Doubt it.
I do not think that word means what you think it means.

Doczinn, why aren't you exploiting this wonderful business idea, then?
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doczinn

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Re: The latest liberal plan to make a mess of cities...
« Reply #37 on: February 02, 2009, 08:42:48 PM »
Well, first of all because where I live it's not a per-bag fee, but a monthly fee. Second, because it's not allowed. It is, as has been pointed out, a government-granted monopoly.
D. R. ZINN

Scout26

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Re: The latest liberal plan to make a mess of cities...
« Reply #38 on: February 02, 2009, 08:45:03 PM »
Ummm, landfills charge a per load fee to dump, so unless you're dumping it illegally you're going to have to pay to dump your staketruck.

Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

Scout26

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Re: The latest liberal plan to make a mess of cities...
« Reply #39 on: February 02, 2009, 08:47:50 PM »
Actually it's not a .gov monopoly.  If you want another hauler to pick up your garbage, your free to use them.  (in fact commerical/industrial companies can use whomever they want).  The thing is is that you'll have to make your own arrangements with them.  Chances are is that the price will be higher, because your an out of the way trip, as opposed to being on the route.   
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

doczinn

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Re: The latest liberal plan to make a mess of cities...
« Reply #40 on: February 02, 2009, 08:48:20 PM »
Quote
landfills charge a per load fee to dump, so unless you're dumping it illegally you're going to have to pay to dump your staketruck.
Yes, while the city dumps it for free at taxpayer expense. Tell me again how there's competition?
D. R. ZINN

Scout26

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Re: The latest liberal plan to make a mess of cities...
« Reply #41 on: February 02, 2009, 08:57:01 PM »
Yes, while the city dumps it for free at taxpayer expense. Tell me again how there's competition?

My city doesn't.  They contract a private company to do the pick-up and disposal, using a sticker system with free recycling.  The only thing the city does is a take a cut of each garbage sticker sold.  The same company picks up my recyclable bin for free.  More in the recyclable bin means less in the trash bin, hence fewer stickers purchased/used.  Everybody wins.
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

doczinn

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Re: The latest liberal plan to make a mess of cities...
« Reply #42 on: February 02, 2009, 09:25:39 PM »
Then maybe in your city it's a free market. Most of the country isn't.
D. R. ZINN

BridgeRunner

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Re: The latest liberal plan to make a mess of cities...
« Reply #43 on: February 02, 2009, 09:34:56 PM »
Actually it's not a .gov monopoly.  If you want another hauler to pick up your garbage, your free to use them.  (in fact commerical/industrial companies can use whomever they want).  The thing is is that you'll have to make your own arrangements with them.  Chances are is that the price will be higher, because your an out of the way trip, as opposed to being on the route.   

Until a few of your neighbors decide to join in, and you become a route.

Tell me again about how being compelled to pay for a service you may elect not to use is less liberal than paying for a service if you choose to use it.

Scout26

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Re: The latest liberal plan to make a mess of cities...
« Reply #44 on: February 02, 2009, 09:44:43 PM »
Until a few of your neighbors decide to join in, and you become a route.

Tell me again about how being compelled to pay for a service you may elect not to use is less liberal than paying for a service if you choose to use it.

I only pay when I use that service.  If I have no garbage, I don't pay.
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

BridgeRunner

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Re: The latest liberal plan to make a mess of cities...
« Reply #45 on: February 02, 2009, 09:55:25 PM »
I only pay when I use that service.  If I have no garbage, I don't pay.

I was still responding to Maned's original nonsensical rant, which labelled fee-for-use trash collection a liberal plan to mess up cities.

Scout26

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Re: The latest liberal plan to make a mess of cities...
« Reply #46 on: February 02, 2009, 10:06:49 PM »
Sorry, BW.   Didn't mean to get in the way of your playing Whack-A-Maned..... =D
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas

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Re: The latest liberal plan to make a mess of cities...
« Reply #47 on: February 03, 2009, 12:13:07 AM »
Quote
Give me a stakebed, and I could get 100 bags (give or take) in one load, for a dollar a bag, include the trip to the dump (can I dump it for free like the city can?) and I can still get $40-$100 per hour depending on neighborhood. Add a truck and pay a coupla guys $10/hr to pick up for me, and pretty soon I'm rolling in dough.
Money's pretty good, but maintenance is a PITA. I've been told that tires give out regularly. You might want to go with a flat rate, too - it simplifies matters considerably for the customers and the office staff.

doczinn

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Re: The latest liberal plan to make a mess of cities...
« Reply #48 on: February 03, 2009, 12:54:05 AM »
Hey, I don't mean to imply that I think you can (without connections) get rich quick hauling trash. I was just trying to address the notion that private enterprise couldn't do it cheaper than the government. At $1.50 per bag, I could do it cheaper.
D. R. ZINN