Author Topic: Korean War vet being detained operated a guerrilla unit during the war  (Read 11006 times)

MillCreek

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http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/detained-us-vet-nkorea-oversaw-guerrilla-group-21077711

So this puts an interesting spin on it.  Does NK, rightly or wrongly, consider this guy a war criminal or guilty of espionage?  And they were thrilled that he delivered himself into their jurisdiction?  If an SS officer involved in the Malmedy massacre had visited the US under his real name 30 years later, I am pretty sure that US authorities would have snatched him up off the tarmac as well.

If I was Charles Graner or Lynndie England, I sure as heck will not be taking any tourist trips to Iraq any time soon.
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Boomhauer

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Re: Korean War vet being detained operated a guerrilla unit during the war
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2013, 09:26:09 PM »
What in the world...why would you VOLUNTARILY go to NK? I would visit just about any other country on this earth before that hellhole*. They are completely unpredictable, completely irrational, and just plain ol' crazy. And I sure as hell would not go visiting NK if I had helped to kill a bunch of them in a war.


*OK I would be thrilled to visit NK in one way...in the cockpit of a B-1 delivering a nuclear payload...



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Re: Korean War vet being detained operated a guerrilla unit during the war
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2013, 09:36:33 PM »
What Boomhauer said. Dumb enough to go to NK? Sorry, mate.
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Re: Korean War vet being detained operated a guerrilla unit during the war
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2013, 11:50:28 PM »
Why would anyone but a fellow traveler go to North Korea? Getting there is a pain (I think only China issues the visa to enter NK, and takes an overnight stay to process), it's very expensive, and you are strictly limited as to where you can go and what you can see. That's not even considering that he fought against them decades ago.

Azrael256

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Re: Korean War vet being detained operated a guerrilla unit during the war
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2013, 12:02:22 AM »
So this puts an interesting spin on it.  Does NK, rightly or wrongly, consider this guy a war criminal or guilty of espionage?

Really?  Seriously?  Wrongly!  Because they're freaking nuts.  Its north Korea.  You can tell how well they eat based on the global price of dog food.  They'll kidnap people who stand still long enough from SK because it's Tuesday.

Give him back, or we glass Pyongyang.  You have fifteen minutes.  When they give him back, nuke them anyway.  Next week, nuke the survivors!

AZRedhawk44

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Re: Korean War vet being detained operated a guerrilla unit during the war
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2013, 12:17:50 AM »
MillCreek's allegory is perfectly apt.

For better or worse, NK is a State.  This man acted in warlike fashion against that State.  Then he put himself into that State's hands.  That State has never been toppled, like Japan or Germany.  The American veteran is not the victor here, able to re-visit his familiar battlefields or guerrilla comrades of olden days, protected by the replacement State crafted by the victors.

I file this under "stoopid is as stoopid does."
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Re: Korean War vet being detained operated a guerrilla unit during the war
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2013, 12:34:04 AM »
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Give him back, or we glass Pyongyang.  You have fifteen minutes.  When they give him back, nuke them anyway.  Next week, nuke the survivors!

The only rational way to deal with those *expletive deleted*ing freaks.

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Balog

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Re: Korean War vet being detained operated a guerrilla unit during the war
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2013, 01:40:45 AM »
The only rational way to deal with those *expletive deleted* freaks.



Except then they invade SK, then China gets involved, then Russia, then we have ourselves a big ole mess. First one started from some obscure duke getting capped, the third one could easily start from nuking a sovereign state. Even when they're batshit crazy like the norks.
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Re: Korean War vet being detained operated a guerrilla unit during the war
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2013, 03:55:09 AM »
The only rational way to deal with those *expletive deleted* freaks.


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Re: Korean War vet being detained operated a guerrilla unit during the war
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2013, 06:47:15 AM »
Except then they invade SK, then China gets involved, then Russia, then we have ourselves a big ole mess. First one started from some obscure duke getting capped, the third one could easily start from nuking a sovereign state. Even when they're batshit crazy like the norks.

Eh I bet we could negotiate with China and Russia to look the other way while we *expletive deleted*ck North Korea up...they dont like the rabid chiuahuah that NK is either

We dont have to nuke them...carpet bombing will work too. And Im betting the NK military doesnt have the ability to take on SK.
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Re: Korean War vet being detained operated a guerrilla unit during the war
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2013, 07:16:30 AM »
Except then they invade SK, then China gets involved, then Russia, then we have ourselves a big ole mess. First one started from some obscure duke getting capped, the third one could easily start from nuking a sovereign state. Even when they're batshit crazy like the norks.


I don't understand why people bring this up, as if invading Iraq or nuking NK would be different if their governments were unsovereign, or whatever.
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Pharmacology

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Re: Korean War vet being detained operated a guerrilla unit during the war
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2013, 11:54:19 AM »
Eh I bet we could negotiate with China and Russia to look the other way while we *expletive deleted* North Korea up...they dont like the rabid chiuahuah that NK is either

We dont have to nuke them...carpet bombing will work too. And Im betting the NK military doesnt have the ability to take on SK.


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Re: Korean War vet being detained operated a guerrilla unit during the war
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2013, 12:22:17 PM »

I don't understand why people bring this up, as if invading Iraq or nuking NK would be different if their governments were unsovereign, or whatever.

Because actions against groups that are not another nation (Barbary pirates for example) are in fact different than attacking another nation state?
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Tallpine

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Re: Korean War vet being detained operated a guerrilla unit during the war
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2013, 12:28:13 PM »
The saintly USSA never attacks smaller and weaker nations just because it can  :angel:
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Re: Korean War vet being detained operated a guerrilla unit during the war
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2013, 01:07:34 PM »
Eh I bet we could negotiate with China and Russia to look the other way while we *expletive deleted* North Korea up...they dont like the rabid chiuahuah that NK is either

We dont have to nuke them...carpet bombing will work too. And Im betting the NK military doesnt have the ability to take on SK.

Uh, wow.

No, we couldn't negotiate with China to look the other way. Russia may or may not care, but China certainly does. Remember, we essentially LOST the Korean War. Or rather, tied for the last 50 years. We assumed we'd roll over a bunch of silly little Asians, and well, gee, we got steamrolled by the PRC Army. We don't have enough carpet bombs to hit even a fraction of NK. Besides, they dig tunnels like no tomorrow. We have penetrators, but only so many of them. NK doesn't have the military to take SK, but they have the ability to kill millions of SK citizens and wreck plenty of infrastructure.

The reason why everyone allows NK to continue as it is? No one wants to foot the bill of dealing with NK. Bombs and bullets are only a tiny fraction of the true cost of destroying the NK government. After unification (if ever), SK would have to spend 10-20% of its GDP for at least a generation on expenses. More likely, three generations. Each and every NK citizen is essentially a concentration camp survivor. You're talking generations of therapy and psychological work. The existing people will need extensive medical treatment due to malnutrition and disease. Hell, dental work alone would be in the billions of dollar. Not to mention, how many shrinks in the world speak Korean? The current generation would be a near total write off. The next two or three generations would be problematic to varying degrees.

Neither China nor SK want to pay those costs. Hell, Boomhauer, what would you do to avoid seeing an extra 10-20% of your paycheck for the rest of your life going to the largest welfare program in modern history? To people that are barely civilized, uneducated, untrustworthy and unable to function in modern times? You wouldn't be willing to shoot down Allied bombers to avoid you, your kids and your grandkids paying that cost?

Even if you would be willing to support the most comprehensive welfare package ever considered, about half of South Koreans aren't.
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Re: Korean War vet being detained operated a guerrilla unit during the war
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2013, 01:40:01 PM »
So you don't think it would be a cakewalk, huh  ???

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Re: Korean War vet being detained operated a guerrilla unit during the war
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2013, 02:32:44 PM »

Oh, forgot one minor point. NK's entire population has been brainwashed and indoctrinated for 50 years that the US is literally the devil, and the cause of all their problems. Also, they're racist and xenophobic on a level that not even the KKK or Nazi party could comprehend. So, hearts and mind might be slightly problematic. Even moreso than the usual land war in Asia.
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Re: Korean War vet being detained operated a guerrilla unit during the war
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2013, 02:58:17 PM »
After unification (if ever), SK would have to spend 10-20% of its GDP for at least a generation on expenses. More likely, three generations. Each and every NK citizen is essentially a concentration camp survivor. You're talking generations of therapy and psychological work. The existing people will need extensive medical treatment due to malnutrition and disease. Hell, dental work alone would be in the billions of dollar. Not to mention, how many shrinks in the world speak Korean? The current generation would be a near total write off. The next two or three generations would be problematic to varying degrees.

I would say way more than 10-20%. West Germany is a good example of getting sucked dry by reunification, and East Germany's infrastructure, while craptastic, was a bajillion times better than NK's. South Korea, along with the US and a bunch of other cart pullers, would be footing the bills for "uplifting" for a long while, IMO.
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Scout26

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Re: Korean War vet being detained operated a guerrilla unit during the war
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2013, 03:10:38 PM »
Uh, wow.

No, we couldn't negotiate with China to look the other way. Russia may or may not care, but China certainly does. Remember, we essentially LOST the Korean War. Or rather, tied for the last 50 years. We assumed we'd roll over a bunch of silly little Asians, and well, gee, we got steamrolled by the PRC Army. We don't have enough carpet bombs to hit even a fraction of NK. Besides, they dig tunnels like no tomorrow. We have penetrators, but only so many of them. NK doesn't have the military to take SK, but they have the ability to kill millions of SK citizens and wreck plenty of infrastructure.

The reason why everyone allows NK to continue as it is? No one wants to foot the bill of dealing with NK. Bombs and bullets are only a tiny fraction of the true cost of destroying the NK government. After unification (if ever), SK would have to spend 10-20% of its GDP for at least a generation on expenses. More likely, three generations. Each and every NK citizen is essentially a concentration camp survivor. You're talking generations of therapy and psychological work. The existing people will need extensive medical treatment due to malnutrition and disease. Hell, dental work alone would be in the billions of dollar. Not to mention, how many shrinks in the world speak Korean? The current generation would be a near total write off. The next two or three generations would be problematic to varying degrees.

Neither China nor SK want to pay those costs. Hell, Boomhauer, what would you do to avoid seeing an extra 10-20% of your paycheck for the rest of your life going to the largest welfare program in modern history? To people that are barely civilized, uneducated, untrustworthy and unable to function in modern times? You wouldn't be willing to shoot down Allied bombers to avoid you, your kids and your grandkids paying that cost?

Even if you would be willing to support the most comprehensive welfare package ever considered, about half of South Koreans aren't.

This.

The Norks have been brainwashed to view the ROK and Americans as worse then "The Great Satan".  They would not welcome us with open arms but damn near every Nork would fight to the death.   The first offensive move on our part would unleash the Nork Army which would invade SK pretty much wiping Seoul off the map in the fighting.

Then even IF we did "Win"  All one has to do is read the stories of how damn near impossible it is to get Nork escapees to "adapt" to western culture/life to see what a monumental humanitarian disaster re-unification will be.   The ROK's saw what happened in German re-unification as to the costs and problems and quickly realized that that was a cake walk compared to what they'll face with the North when it finally implodes.

Germany had the advantage of "Ossie's" who had come from a somewhat Democratic/Representative government past (Pre-WWII).  Along with familiarity with the West (via TV and Radio, try as they might the Stasi/KGB couldn't stop the signal  ;)) along with quite a bit of smuggled consumer goods and some travel/contact with the West .  (Blue Jeans anyone?)  

North Korea has none of that.  (Although smugglers are beginning to operating along the Chinese Border simply due to the almost total collapse of the Nork command economy in the early 2000's.)

There's no history of democratic/representative government.  Period.  Some imperial self-rule in the distant past, but they've mostly been colonial serfs of either the Chinese or Japanese.  Which were far better conditions then what they live under now.

There's practically zero contact with the west.  Yes, there's a factory area Kaesong, but North Korean workers are kept tightly controlled and have practically zero contact with the South Korean managers and owners.  

Radios and TV can only receive Nork channels.  There is no Interwebz access.  While DVD players are being smuggled in (along
with US/Chinese/ROK TV and movie DVD's) Electricity is only available for a few hours each day in the major cities, and non-existent in the countryside.   Plus, the Nork police will shut off power to apartment blocks and then go room by room to find DVD players, then pop out the DVD's.  If the one you're watching is not on Uncle Kim's approved list, off to the Gulag with you, your family, and all your relatives.  Where you enter a new level of hell.  

Over one-third of Norks work in agriculture, yet they are severely malnourished, as without large quantities of ROK and US food aid the population would starve.  There have already been several famines within the past 2 decades.  It's amazing how communist/socialist economies always seem to have nothing but bad harvests due to weather.  Year after year after year.  But they are malnourished to the point that they are 6-8 inches shorter then their ROK cousins in the south.  In less then 60 years.    

So a nation of xenophobic midgets who have lived their entire lives being told not only what to do, but what to think, that worships one "family" trying to be integrated into western society.  

Nuking them might actually be the best option.

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Boomhauer

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Re: Korean War vet being detained operated a guerrilla unit during the war
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2013, 03:17:08 PM »
Uh, wow.

No, we couldn't negotiate with China to look the other way. Russia may or may not care, but China certainly does. Remember, we essentially LOST the Korean War. Or rather, tied for the last 50 years. We assumed we'd roll over a bunch of silly little Asians, and well, gee, we got steamrolled by the PRC Army. We don't have enough carpet bombs to hit even a fraction of NK. Besides, they dig tunnels like no tomorrow. We have penetrators, but only so many of them. NK doesn't have the military to take SK, but they have the ability to kill millions of SK citizens and wreck plenty of infrastructure.

The reason why everyone allows NK to continue as it is? No one wants to foot the bill of dealing with NK. Bombs and bullets are only a tiny fraction of the true cost of destroying the NK government. After unification (if ever), SK would have to spend 10-20% of its GDP for at least a generation on expenses. More likely, three generations. Each and every NK citizen is essentially a concentration camp survivor. You're talking generations of therapy and psychological work. The existing people will need extensive medical treatment due to malnutrition and disease. Hell, dental work alone would be in the billions of dollar. Not to mention, how many shrinks in the world speak Korean? The current generation would be a near total write off. The next two or three generations would be problematic to varying degrees.

Neither China nor SK want to pay those costs. Hell, Boomhauer, what would you do to avoid seeing an extra 10-20% of your paycheck for the rest of your life going to the largest welfare program in modern history? To people that are barely civilized, uneducated, untrustworthy and unable to function in modern times? You wouldn't be willing to shoot down Allied bombers to avoid you, your kids and your grandkids paying that cost?

Even if you would be willing to support the most comprehensive welfare package ever considered, about half of South Koreans aren't.

The second Korean War is going to happen anyway. Sooner or Later, one of the Kim Jongs is going to come to the end of his rope and decide to burn the world down. He'll throw his military against SK and it would not be unsurprising to me for him to start something against the Chinese just to drag them into it. After all, he knows NK would be doomed in a second war so there is nothing to lose by kicking the hornets nest that is China. This would result in China coming down through NK and quite probably attacking SK and the US forces in their rage fueled response to NK's attacks. I think their is a high probability that if NK would only attack SK that the Chinese would sit it out vs. getting involved in something that really would not benefit them but they would definitely respond to a NK provocation. If we were to start negotiating with the Chinese to settle NK's hash before they start the *expletive deleted*, and I would not be surprised if they were willing to deal to get that madman away from them before he does something like nuke China.

China supported NK back in the 1950s because they expected to have a controllable puppet state and we also got too close to their borders for comfort, plus this was the same time as we were intervening between the Chinese and Taiwan.

I am not advocating a hearts and minds thing. I hate that bullshit. But SK had better start thinking realistically about what to do when NK starts *expletive deleted*, and maybe their better be some thinking going on about solving the problem before it becomes a bigger problem. It would not be good for NK to start it up and get China involved either on their side or through provoking China into entering a war. I don't think China wants to go to war against the US, it's bad for business but they will not show restraint in the event of a mad-dog scenario that NK kicks off...they will be too enraged to.

Nuke 'em convert 'em don't really care but I don't want NK to get the advantage plus Chinese support and we'll have a real mess on our hands in that case. We're in for a penny, in for a pound due to our involvement in the original Korean war so we're stuck in it for now unless we leave SK out to dry.




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OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

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Re: Korean War vet being detained operated a guerrilla unit during the war
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2013, 06:32:18 PM »
.... Hell, Boomhauer, what would you do to avoid seeing an extra 10-20% of your paycheck for the rest of your life going to the largest welfare program in modern history? To people that are barely civilized, uneducated, untrustworthy and unable to function in modern times? You wouldn't be willing to shoot down Allied bombers to avoid you, your kids and your grandkids paying that cost?

Even if you would be willing to support the most comprehensive welfare package ever considered, about half of South Koreans Americans aren't.

'Scuse me, but isn't that pretty much what is going on here?  With no end in sight.

Although I agree that the most workable solution to PDRNK would be to turn it into a glass solar reflector.  Mostly because any other possible solution is just too complicated.

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Re: Korean War vet being detained operated a guerrilla unit during the war
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2013, 07:42:39 PM »
What in the world...why would you VOLUNTARILY go to NK? I would visit just about any other country on this earth before that hellhole . . .
Was this octogenarian by any chance related to the three tourists who chose to go on a recreational hike in IRAQ, along the IRANIAN BORDER?

Then you could say stupidity has a genetic component . . .
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Re: Korean War vet being detained operated a guerrilla unit during the war
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2013, 07:45:30 PM »
Was this octogenarian by any chance related to the three tourists who chose to go on a recreational hike in IRAQ, along the IRANIAN BORDER?

Then you could say stupidity has a genetic component . . .

Weren't those tourists widely suspected of being CIA agents?
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Re: Korean War vet being detained operated a guerrilla unit during the war
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2013, 07:49:08 PM »
Was this octogenarian by any chance related to the three tourists who chose to go on a recreational hike in IRAQ, along the IRANIAN BORDER?

Then you could say stupidity has a genetic component . . .

Im glad that you reminded me of those idiots...some idiots are dumber than most...

Im just astounded that someone said "You know what? Life isnt exciting enough. Forget a vacation to the Bahamas, we're gonna go visit sunny North Korea or go hiking in Iraq along the Iranian border"

What ended up happening to those retards anyway?
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OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

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Re: Korean War vet being detained operated a guerrilla unit during the war
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2013, 01:51:34 PM »
Weren't those tourists widely suspected of being CIA agents?

If by "widely suspected" you mean "accused by the Iranian government without a shred of proof", yes.

Hostage-taking is a well-established Iranian tradition, as you may recall.
""If you elect me, your taxes are going to be raised, not cut."
                         - master strategist Joe Biden