Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Grandpa Shooter on December 21, 2009, 09:16:56 PM
-
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/12/21/iraq.us.soldiers.pregnancy/index.html
Now if the women weren't there to begin with.......................... ???
Washington (CNN) -- A new order from the general in charge of northern Iraq makes getting pregnant or impregnating a fellow soldier an offense punishable by court-martial.
The directive, part of a larger order restricting the behavior of the 22,000 soldiers under Gen. Anthony Cucolo's command, is meant to prevent losing soldiers at a time when troop strength is stretched thin, Cucolo explained in a statement sent to the troops under his command and provided to CNN.
"I need every soldier I've got, especially since we are facing a drawdown of forces during our mission," Cucolo wrote. "Anyone who leaves this fight earlier than the expected 12-month deployment creates a burden on their teammates. Anyone who leaves this fight early because they made a personal choice that changed their medical status -- or contributes to doing that to another -- is not in keeping with a key element of our ethos."
The rule, enacted November 4, was first reported by Stars and Stripes, a military-focused publication. It prohibits "becoming nondeployable for reasons within the control of the soldier," which include "becoming pregnant, or impregnating a soldier ... resulting in the redeployment of the pregnant soldier."
Pregnancy that arises from sexual assault would not be punished, Cucolo said.
The directive applies to all military and civilians serving under Cucolo in northern Iraq, an area that includes Balad, Kirkuk, Tikrit, Mosul and Samarra, according to the Web site of Multi-National Force Iraq.
Of the 22,000 people under Cucolo's command, 1,682 are women.
Cucolo will decide what cases will be pursued.
Video: No pregnancy, general's orders
RELATED TOPICS
* Iraq
* Pregnancy and Childbirth
* Iraq War
"I am the only individual who passes judgment on these cases. I decide every case based on the unique facts of each soldier's situation," Cucolo wrote in his explanation of the new rules.
Cucolo said he considers his female soldiers "invaluable" and he wants to ensure they fulfill their deployments.
"I am responsible and accountable for the fighting ability of this outfit. I am going to do everything I can to keep my combat power -- and in the Army, combat power is the individual soldier," his statement said. "To this end, I made an existing policy stricter. I wanted to encourage my soldiers to think before they acted, and understand their behavior and actions have consequences -- all of their behavior."
In an e-mail to CNN, Cucolo stressed the rule "is just a small part of a general policy on behavior and actions," and is "lawful."
The memo outlines a long list of behaviors that are prohibited, from gambling and using drugs to behaviors that would offend Iraqis, such as entering a mosque or religious site unless "required by military necessity."
While the rules may seem unusual to some, they are not out of line with how the military regulates behavior to a much stricter degree than the general public is used to, said Eugene Fidell, who teaches military law at Yale University.
"Questions of personal autonomy play out differently in the military," Fidell said.
He said the purpose of the rule is mostly to have a "chilling effect" on behavior, but he doubts it would ever be fully prosecuted. If it were, however, it appears to be legal, he said.
"If push came to shove and there was prosecution, I think the rule would be upheld as a reasonable balance of the competing interests," he said.
It is not without precedent, Fidell said. During the Vietnam War, a female troop would be discharged for getting pregnant. That rule was challenged, but the government did not want to defend it at the time.
According to the explanation of the policy that was sent to all those affected, only a few cases have been considered for punishment under the new rules. Four soldiers have gotten pregnant since Cucolo took over command of northern Iraq operations at the beginning of November, he told CNN in an e-mail. Of the eight soldiers involved, none were court-martialed. Instead, all received a written reprimand, Cucolo said.
In one case, a male soldier received the "most severe punishment," according to the explanation sent to those serving in northern Iraq. Cucolo does not give any other details about the case except to say the soldier "committed adultery as well."
-
Good. If the man who did the deed is a service member, he should get court-martialed too. But I've heard of and personally seen far too many females who joined the Army for the free college money and bonuses, only to get pregnant a few months before they got called on to do some actual soldiering. You join the service, you agree to fight when and where they tell you, no ifs ands or buts about it. If a solider, chairmen, jarhead or squid chooses to get themselves taken out of combat readiness, it's basically malingering, and should be punished accordingly.
-
Now if the women weren't there to begin with..........................
Oh, gawd.
Not this again...
They're even voting now, GS. Terrible thing, I tell you. =(
-
Now if the women weren't there to begin with.......................... ???
You'd be short by thousands of trained soldiers. Even with the bad economy, getting enough good soldiers have never been an easy task. I served in integrated units. There are fewer and fewer non-integrated units these days. Not so much from PC BS, but basic necessity. Medics, commo, etc are MOS's that require lengthy training and relatively high knowledge to do. You cannot just grab any guy off the street and make them a medic or commo wizard. If they happen to suck with a rifle, you can teach them "enough" in days if not hours. The reverse is not true.
If you were a commander, Grandpa, and you were faced with female soldiers in your unit (which I gather you have some reservations?) or no medics/commo, what would your decision be?
-
Some units get by fine with only male soldiers.
FTR, I am not against any women in the service, just using some sense as to their use & deployment.
-
Some units get by fine with only male soldiers.
FTR, I am not against any women in the service, just using some sense as to their use & deployment.
/gasp
You must haet wimmins!!11!1!eleventyone!!
-
Some units get by fine with only male soldiers.
Obviously. I'm not an "integration at bayonet point" kind of guy. I'm just pointing out that female soldiers are not worthless either.
-
Obviously. I'm not an "integration at bayonet point" kind of guy. I'm just pointing out that female soldiers are not worthless either.
I've yet to see anyone say they are. Although apparently saying women shouldn't be infantry is taken that way by too many people on here... =|
-
I'm just pointing out that female soldiers are not worthless either.
Unless they are pregnant, when they come close to it.
I'm not sure why this is an issue. Isn't it a pretty basic fact of military life that one's personal choices are rather seriously constrained? I'm pretty darned feminist and I don't see an issue with this, so long as the donator of the sperm is subject is subject to the same penalties.
-
After 2 deployments................
I've seen just about every excuses not to deploy! :mad:
-
Oh, gawd.
Not this again...
They're even voting now, GS. Terrible thing, I tell you. =(
Why yes, this again. I don't believe in integrated units in combat zones. I believe our Nation is not well served by having females in harm's way. Tell me all you want about equal rights and feminism, and I will still hold doors for Ladies, stop to help them whenever possible and put them on a pedestal expressly for being female.
Yup, I am old fashioned that way.
-
Is this the first time this has happened? If so, bravo military, I would have expected these things left and right.
Why yes, this again. I don't believe in integrated units in combat zones. I believe our Nation is not well served by having females in harm's way. Tell me all you want about equal rights and feminism, and I will still hold doors for Ladies, stop to help them whenever possible and put them on a pedestal expressly for being female.
Yup, I am old fashioned that way.
You hate women, admit it!! =D Or wait, do you hate men? Why won't you open the door for me, you sexist?
Understand your view... don't agree with it... but understand it. You need to meet my wife, ruthless, I tell you.
-
Is this the first time this has happened? If so, bravo military, I would have expected these things left and right.
You hate women, admit it!! =D Or wait, do you hate men? Why won't you open the door for me, you sexist?
Understand your view... don't agree with it... but understand it. You need to meet my wife, ruthless, I tell you.
I do hold doors for anyone behind me, including you. ;/ Sexist? Why yes I have been called that too. I expect my wife to take my last name, in fact wouldn't marry one who wouldn't. We both wear the traditional wedding rings and aknowledge that men and women were created for different functions in life. The old hunter/protector and nuturer/comforter stuff. Old fashioned, but still my way of seeing things. By the way, it is the way my wife sees things too.
-
How very quaint.
And totally archaic, in the military scheme of things.
I've had fellow female recce aircrew in POW training and Advanced Beatings with me.
We got desensitized to the fact that they were in harm's way, same as us, pretty darned quickly.
Know what? They scream just as loudly during torture as we do. Funny, that. Our "sessions" were videotaped and critiqued afterwards in front of the students and staff. The Combat Crew Training Commander reminded us that we Americans are very ingrained into protecting our women, almost automatically volunteering to take the place of the females screaming during the sessions due to some sense of obligation. He quickly disabused us of the notion.
I'll skip the classified parts, but in a nutshell, they signed on the same dotted line, took the same oath, and went about their business just as seriously, if not more, than their male counterparts.
I hold doors open for them, too. Not because they're ladies, but because I'm a gentleman, and if they dislike my doing so, I respect that, too.
-
heh, I was just messin with ya. I don't think you're a sexist. I actually agree with you, mostly. I just think that the recent wars have proven that our military is (generally) mature enough to handle mixed company. I'm pleasantly surprised that this doesn't happen substantially more often. I also think that some women can be just as effective in combat as men are.
-
If you enlist young women there will be pregnancies which is always a good thing.
The choice between sending a woman into a combat zone where she has to kill or can get
killed herself or getting pregnant to give life seems an easy one to me. I'd award a medal,
a honorable discharge and give some monthly rent to bring up the kid, but that's just me.
-
If you enlist young women there will be pregnancies which is always a good thing.
The choice between sending a woman into a combat zone where she has to kill or can get
killed herself or getting pregnant to give life seems an easy one to me. I'd award a medal,
a honorable discharge and give some monthly rent to bring up the kid, but that's just me.
You've got to be kidding me. An honorable discharge, a medal and welfare for lying on her back? Excuse me for being crude but this is asinine.
-
You've got to be kidding me. An honorable discharge, a medal and welfare for lying on her back? Excuse me for being crude but this is asinine. European.
FTFY
Color me unsympathetic of the women. If you're a man, and you intentionally shoot yourself in the foot to get out of deployment, you should face the same courts martial.
-
Although it is not listed in the article in the OP, I noticed that having sex with Iraqi nationals is also punishable by court-martial as well.
-
I'm surprised no one has suggested that soldiers be given a mandatory contraceptive implant before deployment. We already have Norplant for women. I don't doubt something similar could be developed for men.
-
I'm surprised no one has suggested that soldiers be given a mandatory contraceptive implant before deployment. We already have Norplant for women. I don't doubt something similar could be developed for men.
Wow. Just like handing out condoms in schools. How about some discipline instead?
-
Wow. Just like handing out condoms in schools. How about some discipline instead?
More like "expect the best, plan for the worst."
-
The directive applies to all military and civilians serving under Cucolo in northern Iraq
How does that bold part work?
-
I don't have a problem with this rule at all. If you are deployed or about to be deployed and you voluntarily do something that renders you undeployable there should be consequences. Pregnancy just gets more press attention and raises the hackles of more folks.
-
How does that bold part work?
Left italic, letter b, right italic, insert text, left italic, letter b, backslash, right italic.
-
I'd just like to point out this probably isn't as much a problem with homosexuals. Let 'em in!
-
I can see it now. Gigabust's Gay Grenadiers. Might bring some style to the tacticool movement.
-
I can see it now. Gigabust's Gay Grenadiers. Might bring some style to the tacticool movement.
Then we'll have tactical boa's in pink urban camo.
-
Oh, gawd.
Not this again...
They're even voting now, GS. Terrible thing, I tell you. =(
I said letting them wear shoes would be the slippery slope..... :P
-
Hell, looks like letting them out of the kitchen was a bad move, according to some here... :-X
-
Hell, looks like letting them out of the kitchen was a bad move, according to some here... :-X
Oh crap! When did this happen? =D
-
What is the combat usefulness of a soldier that would get pregnant and raise a child specifically to avoid serving?
If on the other hand, the pregnancy was unplanned, it seems rather asinine and dehumanizing to punish the expectant mother.
As far as women in the military go, it is not a conscription. If they believe they want and can serve, then admit them based on their abilities. Holding them back just because they have a uterus is rather silly and ultimately unfair. There are plenty of uteri to go around in the homeland. Unlike Europe or Russia, the US does not seem to have an acute demographic problem.
-
Left italic, letter b, right italic, insert text, left italic, letter b, backslash, right italic.
Left bracket ( "[" ), letter b, right bracket, insert text, left bracket, backslash, letter b, right bracket.
Should look something like this...
[ b]insert text[/b]
Except without the space before the first b (fastest way I could think of to show the code without it taking effect). Or you could just highlight the text and click the bold B in the upper left corner of the "Post reply" box.
On the original subject, the CG is already backing off on his threat according to this article (http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=9399604).
-
Oh, gawd.
Not this again...
They're even voting now, GS. Terrible thing, I tell you. =(
Hey you can't blame me for that. I wasn't around when they voted that in. >:D
-
Military personnel aren't known for celibacy, historically speaking. Bringing women into the military won't change that. Might reduce the chances of troopies running off and cavorting with local women, and Al-Jazeera playing it as "Crusaders rape Afghan women!"
I can see it now. Gigabust's Gay Grenadiers. Might bring some style to the tacticool movement.
:lol:
Somehow, the issue of pregnant soldiers brings to my warped mind the visual of a lady pilot flying CAS.
"Bravo two zero, this is Baby Mama. My water just broke. Returning to base. You guys are on your own."
-
Men have been charged after getting bad sunburns that render them unable to do their jobs. Jus' saying...
-
The article said the civilians were included. How would the Army punish civilians if at all? Fire them? Cut their pay?
As far as bolding: you were both wrong.
1. Type your message or copy/paste or whatever.
2. Highlight text to be bolded.
3. Hit the B button above.
4. Let the software work for you.
-
Hell, looks like letting them out of the kitchen was a bad move, according to some here... :-X
Teaching them to read ... that was the first mistake. :laugh:
-
I'm pretty darned feminist and I don't see an issue with this, so long as the donator of the sperm is subject is subject to the same penalties.
What about her husband ???
"Bravo two zero, this is Baby Mama. My water just broke. Returning to base. You guys are on your own."
Women are tough. They can stay on duty right up until they pop, take a few hours off, and go back to work. :P =D
(actually, I'm rather old-fashioned and mostly agree with GS ;) )
-
Teaching them to read ... that was the first mistake. :laugh:
How are they gonna cook if they can't read the cookbook? :P
-
How are they gonna cook if they can't read the cookbook? :P
If they didn't go to school, they could stay home and learn it the traditional way. :D
(Is this getting out of hand?)
-
Teaching them to read ... that was the first mistake. :laugh:
Darn, why didn't I think of that? :lol:
-
It shouldn't matter if the pregnancy was "unintended".
As noted, if I get wasted on Friday, pass out in the sun Saturday and am unfit for duty due to severe sunburn come Monday formation I have reduced my unit's combat effectiveness.
True, it was "unintentional", but it was also clearly due to making a series of choices that could reasonably and quite foreseeably lead to that end.
You want to play you have to be willing to pay.
For a guy, you have only a few limited ways to proactively affect the outcome from your end of the transaction. For a female servicemember you have several that are more or less foolproof and free. It behooves you to use them if you want to choose to engage in potentially career-affecting behavior while under such orders.
Suck it up. Be disciplined or take precautions. Don't go whining about "reproductive rights" or "fairness" or other nonsense.
-
The gentleman has apparently reversed himself on this. ???
The commander who instituted a policy cracking down on pregnancy among soldiers defended it Tuesday as necessary to maintain troop strength, but said no soldier would ever be court-martialed for violating the directive.
The policy -- which would punish soldiers who get pregnant or impregnate another soldier -- was included in Maj. Gen. Anthony Cucolo's orders to troops regarding conduct while deployed under his command in northern Iraq.
Cucolo, who has 22,000 people under his command, including 1,682 women, said the policy is meant to make his soldiers "think before they act."
"The main reason why I did this was my intense desire to maintain my fighting strength any way possible in a very tough and complex mission that includes a drawdown," he told reporters in a conference call Tuesday. "The consequence of them departing early is they're leaving their team, their unit, shorthanded with their special skills."
The specific rule in the general order prohibits "becoming nondeployable for reasons within the control of the soldier," which includes "becoming pregnant, or impregnating a soldier ... resulting in the redeployment of the pregnant soldier."
Pregnancy that arises from sexual assault would not be punished, Cucolo said.
The directive applies to all military and civilians serving under Cucolo in northern Iraq, an area that includes Balad, Kirkuk, Tikrit, Mosul and Samarra, according to the Web site of Multi-National Force Iraq.
Video: No pregnancy, general's orders
Video: Pregnancy punishment
RELATED TOPICS
* Iraq
* Pregnancy and Childbirth
* Iraq War
While violation of any of the rules in "General Order Number 1" could lead to court-martial, Cucolo said he never intended such a drastic punishment for pregnancy.
"I believe that I can handle violations of this aspect with lesser degrees of punishment," Cucolo told reporters. "I have not ever considered court-martial for this. I do not ever see myself putting a soldier in jail for this."
The general said he alone would decide on each case based on the individual circumstances.
To date, he said, there have been eight cases of women getting pregnant while deployed under his command. Four were given letters of reprimand that were put in their local files, which means they would not end up in their permanent files and they would not be a factor in being considered for promotions. The four other women found out they were pregnant soon after they deployed; because they were not impregnated while deployed, no disciplinary action was taken.
In all cases, the women were sent back to the United States for medical care, as is military policy. Each has the right to submit a letter in her own defense to be included in her file.
Of the men involved, three were reprimanded, Cucolo said. One, a sergeant, was given a more severe punishment of a written reprimand in his permanent file because he fraternized with a subordinate and committed adultery. A letter in the permanent file can affect a person's career as it is considered when a service member is up for promotion.
A fourth man was never reprimanded because the pregnant soldier refused to identify who the father was and Cucolo did not pursue the issue.
Every unit has a General Order that outlines code of conduct. Commanders are allowed to add to those rules but are not allowed to make the rules any more lax. Cucolo wrote the additional rule after consulting with his commanders, lawyers and subordinate officers, including two female officers who both "supported it 100 percent," he said.
The policy has generated intense debate since it was reported on over the weekend. CNN's report has generated more than 900 comments from readers on CNN.com.
"People who sign up for the military should expect to have rules & regulations -- that's all this is," one person wrote on the site.
"This must be a joke. It needs to be fought and is another realization of the failures of our military leadership. They have put their careers before their consciences," wrote another reader.
Cucolo said that as a former public affairs officer, he realized when he created the rule that it would be controversial for those outside the military.
"When I wrote this, I knew there would be public interest, and I also knew there would be a period of time when many folks would opine and give their own personal thoughts and blog about it. And I am fine with that. That's America," he said. "But I was also willing to deal with this attention because this is important. I am responsible and accountable for the fighting ability of my task force. I've got to take every measure to preserve my combat power, and that's the reason."
Cucolo said that while some might see this as "treading on an intensely personal topic," he feels those in service have other personal obligations.
"Look, I realize it might be hard for those who have never served in a military unit to completely understand what I tried to explain," he told reporters. "[Leaving] those who depend on you shorthanded in a combat zone gets to be very personal for those left, too."
Despite critics, Cucolo said the inclusion of the rule was important.
"I will listen to critics and they add thought, but they actually don't have to do anything. I have to accomplish a very complex mission -- very complex," he said. "I'm going to do what it takes to maintain our strength and bring as many home as I can. ... I believe the American people expect me to do everything I can to keep every one of the soldiers that their money, their taxpayer dollars, trained and got ready for this in the fight."
-
Making threats you have no intention of making good on...
Aw, never mind.
-
Making threats you have no intention of making good on...
It's the Democratic Way....on foreign policy, at least....
I'm surprised that this guy didn't get demoted to PFC by the CinC himself....
-
Probably got some 2LT pregnant himself. :P
-
He knew it wouldn't stand up to UCMJ scrutiny.
Case closed.