Failure is not an option...

[m1911owner]

Failure is not an option.  It comes bundled with Windows Vista whether you like it or not.

[Manedwolf]

A friend, despite warnings from just about everyone, ordered a new machine that came with Vista (Dell) and didn't have the power to handle it, even.

After about a week of headaches, driver issues that wouldn't be resolved and general nonsense, they demanded that Dell supply them with XP instead.

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

I just got SWMBO up to W2K Pro from Win98 last year. I only run a W2K pro partition because of some MS apps I *have* to have. Work compels me to run XP.

The Incubus wants to get a new laptop with Vister. I tell him he's insane. I ain't gonna be an early adopter for anything.

Regards,
Rabbit.

[Gewehr98]

No Vista for me, thank you, I'll stay with XP Pro and Debian/GNU Linux.  At least, not until Vista Service Pack 1 comes out.  Even then, I'd have to add memory to 3 of the machines in this house just to run it. 

At least I can test whether my computers can run the stuff:

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/getready/upgradeadvisor/default.mspx

[RadioFreeSeaLab]

I won't be upgrading my office to Vista.  We're staying with XP as long as possible, and beginning some testing with Linux.

[Ben]

At least, not until Vista Service Pack 1 comes out.

That's how I do it with every Windows upgrade. In a surprising demonstration of common sense, the fed.gov agency I work for has also told us to hold off on Vista, which is no end of relief to me.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

I upgraded to XP reluctantly.  I'd prefer Win2k or Linux, but circumstances make that impossible.

I will NOT use Vista.

[Manedwolf]

Personally, I just use a Mac. I get work done, and never have to deal with spyware, crashes and crap like that. All the apps are identical, including Office and the Adobe suite, it just turns on, does work, turns off, turns on, etc...

It just works. Kinda what I expect in 2007 for a PC.

[mtnbkr]

Kinda like my PC.  I haven't had a spyware or virus infection that I can recall since I built it almost 4yrs ago.  The key to my success is buiding it with solid, proven hardware (no bleeding edge components), and using a mature, stable OS (Win2k).  I never upgrade unless I have a solid, performance or feature oriented reason.  The last time was because I needed more horsepower to work with digital video downloaded from our camcorder.  I expect to get another year or two out of our current PC.

Chris

[zahc]

I'll use windows until doing so becomes disadvantageous, and then switch to linux.

[Sindawe]

Usually I let others be guinea pigs for Microsoft, and thats my general feeling on Vista as well.  There is only one motivating factor for me to "upgrade" to Vista at some point in time and that is gaming.  For me the decision point will be what the requirements are for the game Brothers in Arms: Hells Highway

We are still running W2k at work for the servers, and XP on the workstations.  I run XP and W2k3 Server at home and don't forsee that changing anytime in the next 18 months, unless I move to Linix or Apple.

[Manedwolf]

I'll use windows until doing so becomes disadvantageous, and then switch to linux.

The problem is that unlike Windows and OSX, Linux has no real-world productivity applications.

Windows and OSX have identical versions of Microsoft Office, including Word, Excel, and Powerpoint, the essentials of ANY business. For publications, both have Photoshop, Illustrator, et al. There really is no learning curve for an office worker moving from Windows Excel to OSX Excel. It's Excel, they can start doing spreadsheets. Same with Powerpoint, new slide, go.

The best Linux can do is hobbyist-written kinda-like amateur programs that do some of the same functions, but have for-hardcore-geeks-only interfaces and incompatibilities.

Thus, while Linux is fine for servers, it's a non-starter for actual real-world offices, since you can't walk into a store a buy a suite of REAL business applications for it.

[Iain]

I haven't used spreadsheets intensively recently, but I hear good things about OpenOffice, which is available on both Microsoft and Linux, and is free.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

OpenOffice works pretty well on Linux.  I used it as an alternative to the MS Office programs for a while.  I had to switch back to WinXP though to make some other software work, so I don't use it anymore.

I agree with you in general, though.  Linux is for advanced users.  Most office staff have trouble doing the basic stuff on windows and Mac boxes.  Expecting them to cope with Linux is a bit of a stretch.

I've never understood the appeal of Macs.  They're sort of the worst of the Windows and Linux worlds.  On the one hand Macs share the same limitations in application selection and compatibility that Linux suffers from.  On the other hand, Macs suffer the same lack of flexibility and configurability that limits usefulness to a serious user.  At least with Win and Linux you can have either a wide application selection or a powerful interface, on a Mac you get neither.

[Manedwolf]

On the other hand, Macs suffer the same lack of flexibility and configurability that limits usefulness to a serious user.  At least with Win and Linux you can have either a wide application selection or a powerful interface, on a Mac you get neither.

O_o

Uh. Yeah. Remind me of that next time I have a Terminal window open and am entering Unix commands to take total control of the system...or I'm working in an Xwindows environment across dual screens from my Macbook Pro. Or when I download Cocoa apps that are clean, powerful and elegant...and free, or shareware, that can be discarded without actually having been INSTALLED in your system.

Windows has more applications, sure. More absolute garbage made-in-basements shareware pieces of crashy sh*t that will do nothing but clog your registry and shut down when you try to use their ugly VBscript Windows 3.1-looking interfaces, and stuff up your start menus.

If that's considered appeal, hey.

But...not a powerful interface? OSX is freaking BSD UNIX! You can kill -9 a bad process if you want to, compare THAT to Windows' sorry excuse for process control.

Oh, yeah, and the Intel macs can run XP and Vista natively if you want them to. Just curious, when was the last time you used a Mac...Ten years or more ago, running OS9 or earlier?

[jnojr]

The problem is that unlike Windows and OSX, Linux has no real-world productivity applications.

Windows and OSX have identical versions of Microsoft Office, including Word, Excel, and Powerpoint, the essentials of ANY business. For publications, both have Photoshop, Illustrator, et al. There really is no learning curve for an office worker moving from Windows Excel to OSX Excel. It's Excel, they can start doing spreadsheets. Same with Powerpoint, new slide, go.

http://www.openoffice.org/

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

I think you've misunderstood my point.  Or maybe I misunderstood yours.

Last time I used a Mac was about 14 hours ago, for whatever that's worth.  I use a Mac a few times a week.  Sure, they work, for some things.  They allow you to do the basic stuff like surf the web or build a spreadsheet.  And yeah they always work when you turn them on.  So do my Win and Linux boxes, but whatever...

Macs don't allow me to do a number of technically oriented tasks that I need to do everyday.  The Cadence OrCAD circuit design and simulation suite, an industry standard and invaluable tool I use everyday, doesn't work on Mac or Linux.  Several of the embedded systems development suites don't work on Mac or Linux.  These aren't garbage shareware basement apps that trash my system.  I wouldn't be able to do my job if I had to rely solely on a Mac on Linux box, because the software tools simply aren't there.

Linux/UNIX have greater utility for programming, scripting, networking, data storage, remote accessibility, communications, distributed/parallel computing, and a whole host of other technical computing tasks.  Neither Windows PCs nor Macs can do all of this as quickly, efficiently, and easily.  If you squint you can sorta kinda make it look like you can duplicate this functionality on a Mac or Windows box.  But it simply isn't the same as doing it on a real unix machine.  Part of this is due to the fact that unix is built around a command line interface and intended to be used as a command line interface.  Mac and the modern Windows versions are intended to be used primarily from a GUI.  The GUI distances the user from the technically oriented, powerful features that I like.

So here are my choices:
Windows:  I get my software apps, but not my powerful computing environment   
Linux/UNIX:  I get my powerful computing environment but not the software apps I need   
Mac:  I get neither the apps I need, nor the powerful computing environment I like.   

[BakerMikeRomeo]

I'm keeping XP until I replace this machine with one capable of running the new DX10 games, and then I'm gonna bop on over to Vista. I would probably be hot for a mac if everybody made their games for them, but they don't, so I'm not. Viva Marathon!

My brother got his early adopter on with Vista, and picked it up to try it out. Apparently, as of the last time I talked to him, NVIDIA does not have its stuff together with regard to Vista drivers, as my brother's having all kinds of graphical suck with it.

~GnSx

[mtnbkr]

Uh. Yeah. Remind me of that next time I have a Terminal window open and am entering Unix commands to take total control of the system...or I'm working in an Xwindows environment across dual screens from my Macbook Pro.

All things that can be done with Windows.  Problem is, most people don't bother to learn the command line methonds to common Windows tasks.  For what isn't provided by MS out of the box, you can download and add later (www.sysinternals.com is a great source). 

Back when I was a WinNT4.0 sysadmin, I used to use the command line as much as the gui.  I'd write scripts to automate tasks so I wouldn't have to sit in front of the system. 

But...not a powerful interface? OSX is freaking BSD UNIX! You can kill -9 a bad process if you want to, compare THAT to Windows' sorry excuse for process control.

I have a "kill" command on my Win2k box that is the final word if I want to kill a process. 

Windows has more applications, sure. More absolute garbage made-in-basements shareware pieces of crashy sh*t that will do nothing but clog your registry and shut down when you try to use their ugly VBscript Windows 3.1-looking interfaces, and stuff up your start menus.

You should see some of the crap that's made available for Linux.  There's stuff there that makes Windows shareware look professional and polished.  Luckily, in both cases, you can choose not to install the stuff.

Oh, yeah, and the Intel macs can run XP and Vista natively if you want them to

What's the point?  If I'm going to buy proprietary and expensive Apple hardware, why not run their OS on it as well?  That's what makes a Mac work as well as it does.  It's a tightly controlled OS with tightly controlled hardware.  It's kind of like running Solaris on a Sun workstation IMO.  I'd like to see how well the Mac OS faires when anyone can build the hardware platform.  Oh yeah, Apple tried that and killed it quickly.

Chris

[Manedwolf]

The problem is that unlike Windows and OSX, Linux has no real-world productivity applications.

Windows and OSX have identical versions of Microsoft Office, including Word, Excel, and Powerpoint, the essentials of ANY business. For publications, both have Photoshop, Illustrator, et al. There really is no learning curve for an office worker moving from Windows Excel to OSX Excel. It's Excel, they can start doing spreadsheets. Same with Powerpoint, new slide, go.

http://www.openoffice.org/

Geekware. Not ready for the mainstream. And ugly as sin, last I looked at it.

I'm sorry, but a bunch of amateur hobbyists does not equal the resources of millions of dollars in UI development, bug testing, functionality refinement, etc. There's no way around that. It's like saying that a truck that some hobbyists put together from pieces in their backyard is the same as, say, a Nissan Titan or Ford F-250 for actual contractors on construction sites. It ain't the same. Period.



If it can't run Microsoft Office, it's of no use to most businesses.

[AZRedhawk44]

The problem is that unlike Windows and OSX, Linux has no real-world productivity applications.

WineX.

This is a direct X 9.0b port for Linux that allows you to play ANY DirectX 9 computer game in your Linux environment.  Works fantastic.

If the game is not DirectX (OpenGL maybe?), WineX has windows dll library files that are open source and reverse engineered.  You can use the same setup.exe file to install a Windows based game onto a linux box running WineX.  Linux has run OpenGL hardware acceleration for years.  You'll lose a couple of frames per second due to the additional libraries that have to be loaded, but you can play most games and run most standard office and productivity suites.  Or, there's native software such as KOffice, OpenOffice or Corel WordPerfect.

Simple.

[cordex]

I'm sorry, but a bunch of amateur hobbyists does not equal the resources of millions of dollars in UI development, bug testing, functionality refinement, etc. There's no way around that. It's like saying that a truck that some hobbyists put together from pieces in their backyard is the same as, say, a Nissan Titan or Ford F-250 for actual contractors on construction sites. It ain't the same. Period.

StarDivision, the original author of the StarOffice suite of software, was founded in Germany in the mid-1980s. It was acquired by Sun Microsystems during the summer of 1999 and StarOffice 5.2 was released in June of 2000. Future versions of StarOffice software, beginning with 6.0, have been built using the OpenOffice.org source, APIs, file formats, and reference implementation. Sun continues to sponsor development on OpenOffice.org and is the primary contributor of code to OpenOffice.org. CollabNet hosts the website infrastructure for development of the product and helps manage the project.

No doubt, Manedwolf.  Those garage-shop bozos at Sun don't know the first thing about computers.

[Manedwolf]

The problem is that unlike Windows and OSX, Linux has no real-world productivity applications.

WineX.

This is a direct X 9.0b port for Linux that allows you to play ANY DirectX 9 computer game in your Linux environment.  Works fantastic.

If the game is not DirectX (OpenGL maybe?), WineX has windows dll library files that are open source and reverse engineered.  You can use the same setup.exe file to install a Windows based game onto a linux box running WineX.  Linux has run OpenGL hardware acceleration for years.  You'll lose a couple of frames per second due to the additional libraries that have to be loaded, but you can play most games and run most standard office and productivity suites.  Or, there's native software such as KOffice, OpenOffice or Corel WordPerfect.

Simple.

How business offices work:

"To get A, perform task B."

How Linux works:

"To get A, perform task B, which will allow C to emulate D, then compile E and F to create a tool that you can then run to work on getting A."


I've actually seen Linux people being canned at companies because they were spending too much time screwing around with their machines and not enough time just USING a premade tool to get billable work done. Which is what people are expected to do at offices.

Until you can walk into any major chain store and buy a universal office app that install with a quick, easy wizard installer, it's not ready for the mainstream.

And Office IS the standard. People mail back and forth milions of word DOCs and Powerpoint PPTs and Excel XLS's every day. If your hobbyist app does anything that makes it unreadable to a client...you just lost a contract and it'll go to someone who has no such incompatibility issues. Speed of business. No time for that nonsense.

[mtnbkr]

How Linux works:

"To get A, perform task B, which will allow C to emulate D, then compile E and F to create a tool that you can then run to work on getting A."

Five years ago, true, but it's no longer the case now.  There are native Linux apps for just about everything.  MS Office is lacking because MS doesn't want to give any support to Linux.  There are alternatives though.

I've actually seen Linux people being canned at companies because they were spending too much time screwing around with their machines and not enough time just USING a premade tool to get billable work done.

Those folks would be canned for doing the same thing with Windows, Mac, or Sun. 

Until you can walk into any major chain store and buy a universal office app that install with a quick, easy wizard installer, it's not ready for the mainstream.

Maybe not for mom and pop user, but for the business world, so much stuff is customized, not being able to buy it off the shelf at Best Buy means nothing.  Very little on my computer right now is COTS. 

If your hobbyist app does anything that makes it unreadable to a client...you just lost a contract and it'll go to someone who has no such incompatibility issues.

Sorry, not true in my experience.  Even with mainstream apps, incompatible documents get created.  There's a bit of give and take until a common format can be agreed upon.  I work with odd, nonstandard formats all the time.  It's no big deal to have a customer ask for a different format because it isn't compatible with their systems.  This isn't limited to Office apps either.  There are all sorts of file formats that must be transmuted into something else for customers or service providers. 

A large portion of what I pass around is in formats other than those supported natively by Office.  When was the last time you used Word to view a syslog file 500meg in size?  Or run a query against a RADIUS accounting logfile?  Dumped many LDAPs to Excel lately?  Maybe you use Powerpoint to configure that VPN. 

Chris

[Sergeant Bob]

So which is better? 9mm or 45acp?