Author Topic: to taze or not to taze  (Read 10971 times)

cassandra and sara's daddy

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to taze or not to taze
« on: May 07, 2009, 06:13:28 AM »
we had a mentally ill 300 pound man killed when he tackled a cop and her partner shot him. now some are screaming for the cops to get tazers in chesterfield . soon as they do some of the same folks will be screaming when they are used. in some cases literally
http://www.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/local/article/FUNE02_20090501-222025/265234/

darned if you do darned if you don't  and oddly enough a 300 plus pound schizophrenic might not be affected by a tazer
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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castle key

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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2009, 08:27:18 AM »
"Don't taze me, Bro!"

Someone was going to write that, so I figured I'd be first.
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AJ Dual

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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2009, 08:35:25 AM »
There's also the issue that there's a fair amount of data that indicates certain minority groups are subjected to the tazer at two or three times the rates of whites.

So it would seem that in reality, the tazer is just another way to keep them down... and twitching.

 =)
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MicroBalrog

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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2009, 08:45:03 AM »
THe tazer is a less-lethal weapon of self-defense. It is completely legitimate in that role.
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makattak

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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2009, 08:50:38 AM »
There's also the issue that there's a fair amount of data that indicates certain minority groups are subjected to the tazer at two or three times the rates of whites.

So it would seem that in reality, the tazer is just another way to keep them down... and twitching.

 =)

I'd like to see if the studies control for crime rates....
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2009, 09:44:52 AM »
you ever see the study where they analyzed the demographics of speeders?  the flagrant ones? quite interesting
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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slugcatcher

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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2009, 09:47:06 AM »
There's also the issue that there's a fair amount of data that indicates certain minority groups are subjected to the tazer at two or three times the rates of whites.

So it would seem that in reality, the tazer is just another way to keep them down... and twitching.

 =)

Regardless of race most people getting tazed have the same attitude towards law enforcement. People that behave during a situation involving police usually are not tazed. Maybe if a poll was done using attitude towards police officers instead of race we'd see real data.

MicroBalrog

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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2009, 09:59:15 AM »
Yeah, I am sure all those people tazed deserved it equally. ;/
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2009, 10:00:25 AM »
no  some deserved it lots more than others
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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French G.

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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2009, 10:13:49 AM »
The taser was envisioned as a less lethal alternative to deadly force; to be employed where there was a threat that could be stopped with deadly force but afforded the officer the opportunity to employ less lethal means. For example, a man with a knife having a stand-off with a cop. The problem is that the taser has become a pain compliance tool, do as I say, or I'll tase you. Yet another gadget replacing skill and experience in law enforcement.
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zahc

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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2009, 10:31:06 AM »
Quote
Regardless of race most people getting tazed have the same attitude towards law enforcement. People that behave during a situation involving police usually are not tazed. Maybe if a poll was done using attitude towards police officers instead of race we'd see real data.

What exactly is the proper attitude one should assume in order to avoid being tazed? Be specific. Could you please cite the law that outlines the attitudes that justify tazing and how they are defined? I would like to avoid being tazed and so I would be very interested in avoiding those attitudes that legally justify tazing.
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makattak

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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2009, 10:34:47 AM »
What exactly is the proper attitude one should assume in order to avoid being tazed? Be specific. Could you please cite the law that outlines the attitudes that justify tazing and how they are defined? I would like to avoid being tazed and so I would be very interested in avoiding those attitudes that legally justify tazing.

There's a video: How not to get beat by the Police.

Apply those principles to avoiding a tazering as well.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

AJ Dual

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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2009, 11:45:08 AM »
You can ignore my comments in the debate.

It was just a bad joke.  =D

I don't care who gets tazed, as long as departmental policy is followed. And no, I'd not be shocked to learn that certain socio-economic groups simply cross the line more and earn more tazering than others.
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roo_ster

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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2009, 11:55:18 AM »
I'd like to see if the studies control for crime rates....

Hey, just who are you to bring statistical rigor to this argument?!?  :laugh:



More & more, it looks to me that the Taser is a bit of hardware that ought to never have been issued. 

1. It is entirely inappropriate to deal with most threats.  If a LEO is facing a firearm, knife, or any weapon that could kill him, a Taser is not the right tool for the job.  That is what their own firearm is for.

2. It is being used as a cattle prod, as a pain compliance tool, not a less-lethal alternative to .45ACP therapy.  As was stated above, it is the go-to tool for LEOs who can not use their head for anything other than a hat rack.

It really is only suited to #2, as it is too sucky/unreliable a weapon to use against an actively fighting suspect.

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roo_ster

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never_retreat

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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2009, 12:24:03 PM »
The taser was envisioned as a less lethal alternative to deadly force; to be employed where there was a threat that could be stopped with deadly force but afforded the officer the opportunity to employ less lethal means. For example, a man with a knife having a stand-off with a cop. The problem is that the taser has become a pain compliance tool, do as I say, or I'll tase you. Yet another gadget replacing skill and experience in law enforcement.

Ding Ding Ding we have a winner.
This pretty much sums up tazer use. What happened to the good old mag lite to the head? Oh ya no training.
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French G.

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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2009, 02:16:59 PM »
Ding Ding Ding we have a winner.
This pretty much sums up tazer use. What happened to the good old mag lite to the head? Oh ya no training.

Give me a choice and I'll take the Taser please. Been hit with a maglite before, not fun. The maglite was the 1980's answer to the wrong question.
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RevDisk

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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2009, 07:16:40 PM »
Personally, I'm leery of tasers myself.   Actually, I hate them with a burning passion after the nice sales people across the street explained them to me.

First off, two models.  LE (M18 and M18L) and a "civilian" model, the Taser C2.  (The clerk didn't like when I joking pointed out that police are civilians too, which was even more amusing.)   I didn't ask too much about the LE version, as my sister was interested in buying one of the cute looking C2 models.  The civvie model is light, curvey and non-threatening looking.  It's called the Taser C2, and is visually packaged to express the impression of "consumer electronics" instead of weapon.  But hey, that's just aesthetics.  Nothing wrong with that.  So let's move on to why it's a bad product that is dangerous to the user.   

It fires a single cartridge costing $25, which contains compressed air, wire, barbs, etc.  And allegedly some kind of micro-ID thingies that can be used to identify a perp.  There is no OEM training cartridge for the civvie model.  Which means you CANNOT safely test the device unless you're handy with electricity and know how to safely ground something conductive.  There is no way to turn off the juice, so it is risky to test the Taser on anything that is conductive and improperly grounded.   Besides it being insane to never being able to safely test and practice with an allegedly life saving device, why is this worrisome? 

If you did not read the manual, did not test the device and need to use it in self-defense, you will quickly learn that you have been hauling around a $350 ish paperweight.  See, the device needs activation. 

I swear to the gods, I am not lying.  A weapon that needs permission before usage.  I find the concept horrifying, personally, but I guess certain folks would love it.  Here is the proof:  https://activate.taser.com/c2activation/   You must pay an additional fee for a private company to conduct a background check.  If you do not pass, the Taser C2 is permanently disabled.  If the person processing the request makes a mistake or the necessary IT equipment malfunctions, you are out $350 for the device and another $10 for the background check.  Since it is a private company, there is no oversight or accountability laws to govern its background checks.  More worrisome, any device that can be remotely turned on can be remotely turned off.  And since you can't safely test it, you have no guarantee that your unit will function as it is needed to function.  If you somehow can safely test the unit, it is $25 per functionality check. There's plenty of potential possibilities for someone to over-the-air disable your Taser: the company don't like you, the police don't like you, accident on some computer somewhere, someone making a clerical mistake, hackers, Brady Bunch passes a law restricting taser usage by non-police, whatever.

Why is this?  So if a felon buys a Taser, he can't use it.  Yes, that is the company's exclusive justification for such a radical product flaw.  Because no felon would lie and give false information to Taser's activation folks, or pay someone else to activate the Taser.  Felons are known for their scrupulous honesty and for never lying to suit their own needs.


Well, let's move onto usage.  The design is only practical if you have one attacker.  It converts to a "stun gun" if the cartridge is expended (and the unit is not disabled), which is a nice thought and only slightly less useful than having a heavy rock.   It allows you to zap a person up to 50 times.  But the official usage doctrine for the C2 is to press the button (the C2 model gives shocks in 30 second durations), drop the unit, run to a safe location and call 911.  So following that logic...  the manufacturer specifically suggests the unit is near useless against more than one aggressor.  Unless you carry multiple Tasers, of course.

A $2 knife is starting to sound like a more durable, better designed and significantly safer weapon.  I'll buy my sister a full auto MP5 and pay an insane retainer to the sharkyist defense lawyer in the region before I could in good conscience pick up a Taser for her.  Thankfully, the tasteful PR DVD included in the product packet was enough to convince her that they are a really bad idea.  It's a dangerous, poorly designed, and hideously expensive weapon with limited functionality.  She's leaning towards a Keltec or a XD compact.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 07:19:51 PM by RevDisk »
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Balog

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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2009, 07:44:27 PM »
Whoa, they remotely activate it?!?! I knew I didn't want one, but I had no idea how bad they were. Thanks for the heads up Rev.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2009, 08:02:45 PM »
Quote
Why is this?  So if a felon buys a Taser, he can't use it.  Yes, that is the company's exclusive justification for such a radical product flaw. 

So I take it all 'felons' are complete unpersons and are not even allowed to use such a basic 'weapon'?
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RevDisk

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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2009, 08:49:07 PM »
Whoa, they remotely activate it?!?! I knew I didn't want one, but I had no idea how bad they were. Thanks for the heads up Rev.

No prob.  I was literally shocked speechless at times when the sales guy was explaining everything.  The two sales ladies were about as horrified as I was.  It's like the Brady Bunch designed this thing.     

I understand the Taser Company is just trying to make a buck, but as a human, I find their means of doing so very offensive...   I personally would never buy their product, but boycotts wouldn't matter.  They make most of their money selling to governments and police agencies. 
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Balog

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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2009, 11:17:09 PM »
No prob.  I was literally shocked speechless at times when the sales guy was explaining everything.  The two sales ladies were about as horrified as I was.  It's like the Brady Bunch designed this thing.     

I understand the Taser Company is just trying to make a buck, but as a human, I find their means of doing so very offensive...   I personally would never buy their product, but boycotts wouldn't matter.  They make most of their money selling to governments and police agencies. 

Undoubtedly why their non-.gov sales arm is so lacking.  :mad:
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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2009, 12:32:33 AM »
Quote
I swear to the gods, I am not lying.  A weapon that needs permission before usage.  I find the concept horrifying, personally, but I guess certain folks would love it.  Here is the proof:  https://activate.taser.com/c2activation/
I just followed the link. The site is being upgraded, and is currently down.   :O =D
Thanks for the info. Will avoid tasers in the future.

MechAg94

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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2009, 09:44:48 AM »
Okay, I have never really considered getting a taser for self defense other than those stun gun types they have at gun shows.  For personal defense, I would think a device that does a one-shot of little barbs is not the best.

On the police side of things, what are the advantages and disadvantages of using different tools for compliance?  It seems to me you have tasers, night sticks/clubs, firearms, hands on wrestling/arm twisting, or harsh words.    Considering some of the people and thugs police deal with, I can certainly see why they might like using a tool that allows them to put a few feet between them and the suspect.  I am sure all of us see "compliance" as a loaded word that means different things to different people.  In answering that question, I would draw a line of difference between dealing with a meth head on the side of the road versus dealing with an house wife who refuses to sign a speeding ticket.  I would hope that department policies provide some guidelines for stuff like that.  I know I have heard that some departments put use of a taser ahead of any action that lays hands on someone. 
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MillCreek

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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2009, 11:12:26 AM »
In terms of enforcing compliance, I would far rather be tazed than get baton/maglite blows to my joints and what not.  The tazer would hurt less and would be far less likely to leave permanent damage. 
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Dannyboy

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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2009, 12:14:53 PM »
In terms of enforcing compliance, I would far rather be tazed than get baton/maglite blows to my joints and what not.  The tazer would hurt less and would be far less likely to leave permanent damage. 
Unless it kills you.  That would be kind of permanent.
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