Author Topic: to taze or not to taze  (Read 10976 times)

Balog

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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2009, 12:49:47 PM »
Unless it kills you.  That would be kind of permanent.

A maglite to the head is more likely to kill you than a taser, though.
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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2009, 01:36:46 PM »
we had a mentally ill 300 pound man killed when he tackled a cop and her partner shot him. now some are screaming for the cops to get tazers in chesterfield . soon as they do some of the same folks will be screaming when they are used. in some cases literally
http://www.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/local/article/FUNE02_20090501-222025/265234/

darned if you do darned if you don't  and oddly enough a 300 plus pound schizophrenic might not be affected by a tazer
The problem is not Tasers.

The problem is not cops using Tasers when it is warranted.

The problem is the occasional cop that uses Tasers for recreational purposes when it is not warranted without any consequences to said cop.

And BTW, IMO, there is no legitimate use of a Taser as a compliance tool unless the Taseree is engaging in violent behavior of some sort.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 01:44:02 PM by ilbob »
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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2009, 01:55:04 PM »
Unless it kills you.  That would be kind of permanent.

Having gone through both the baton and taser training, I think the chance of death is far greater with baton strikes than a taser.  In the excitement of the moment, a good blow to the head is more likely to be deadly than a taser shock.
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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2009, 02:19:01 PM »
A maglite to the head is more likely to kill you than a taser, though.
Having gone through both the baton and taser training, I think the chance of death is far greater with baton strikes than a taser.  In the excitement of the moment, a good blow to the head is more likely to be deadly than a taser shock.
You guys are probably right but cops aren't killing people with flashlights these days. 
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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2009, 02:26:31 PM »
You guys are probably right but cops aren't killing people with flashlights these days. 

... because they have tazers?...

Might there not be a connection there?
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RevDisk

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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2009, 03:36:59 PM »
A maglite to the head is more likely to kill you than a taser, though.

I'd agree with Tasers being safer IF PROPERLY USED.  However, I'd also point out that I'd prefer fairly strict guidelines on taser usage.  Tasing someone for entertainment purposes or in response to nonviolent/nonphysical noncompliance are not acceptable to myself, but some folks think such usage is proper.  Guidelines, hopefully well researched, well written and standardized, would protect the officer from legal issues and the public from misuse.  Should it be acceptable to taser a 6 year old, but not beat them with a baton?  Or should it be acceptable procedure to use a baton, but not a taser?  Is it acceptable to tase someone that is in four way restraints, how about using a maglite?  Is it acceptable to tase a woman if she refuses to strip in front of male officers?  Why or why not?  I seriously have no idea why the police unions aren't screaming for standardized guidelines on tasers, if not for their own careers.

A taser has the potential to be lethal (it is classed as less lethal) and it's not intended to be used as a compliance device.  It's meant to replace a firearm in situations were lethal force is not essential.   It is NOT supposed to replace good training and following procedures.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 03:44:14 PM by RevDisk »
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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #31 on: May 08, 2009, 03:46:32 PM »
WTH!

Just taser 'em all and let GOD sort it all out...  :O
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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #32 on: May 08, 2009, 05:31:24 PM »
The gun is good....the tazer is evil....  =D
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Dannyboy

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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #33 on: May 08, 2009, 06:26:38 PM »
... because they have tazers?...

Might there not be a connection there?
Huh?  I'm talking about all the people being killed by cops using the supposedly non-lethal tazer.  You know, as opposed to all the people being killed by flashlight beatings.  I thought the reference was fairly obvious.
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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #34 on: May 08, 2009, 07:23:37 PM »
Quote
I thought the reference was fairly obvious.
This is the Internet. Nothing is obvious.  :laugh:

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #35 on: May 08, 2009, 08:02:09 PM »
how many folk been killed by tazers?  that weren't whacked on coke or meth? we used to see folks die pretty regular after fighting with the cops  all that better living through modern chemistry does bad things to folks metbaolism  they get to struggling and flailing around and all mat once they croak  or they croak in the cop caar after the adrenalin rush wears off.  i suspect tasers have saved far more folks than they hurt. i grew up in the days of stick time and choke holds and knew a few guys who didn't make it.
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5632116,00.html
In the United States and Canada combined, 300 people have died after being stunned with Tasers, he said.


i strongly suspect given  the number of folks tazed and the reality that pre tazer they woulda got stick time choke holds or shot 300 folks is not many scattered over years in 50 states. the reason many jurisdictions use a tazer before/instead of all that rassling round is that fewer people on both sides get hurt.  i sometimes call it a quick iq/darwin check.  if the cops tell you you are gonna be tazed someone with an above room temperature iq gives it up. the tricky part is when there are mental illness issues and in many of those cases i've seen it work. i have less compassion for self administered druggies.  you play the game buy a ticket you take the ride.  no whining please.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #36 on: May 08, 2009, 08:17:55 PM »
Here's the deal.  Bad guy with knife.  Cop has gun.  Bad guy stands a good chance of dying after being shot.
Same scenerio.  Cop has Tazer and gun.  Tazes bad guy.  Bad guy stands a good chance of living.
Its a tool, and when used right and taught right, something that a cop should have.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #37 on: May 08, 2009, 08:22:12 PM »
1. The argument against tazers, I think, is that police officers use them more often (thinking they're less dangerous) than chokeholds, etc, sometimes applying them in a situation where a chokehold would not be applied.

2. Sorry, the fact you use drugs doesn't make you an unperson. That some people don't have 'sympathy' for drug users is part of the problem, not part of the solution.
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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #38 on: May 08, 2009, 08:38:21 PM »
i have plenty of empathy  no sympathy  i know where they keep it in the dictionary though.  choosing to use drugs makes the user responsible for the consequences.  green bean or tweaker ?  run amok? catch a beating ride the lightening or get shot?  its your fault. io don't care if its cause you weren't breat fed or not.   now the mentally ill get some sympathy and tazing em beats the crap outa shooting em
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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MicroBalrog

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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #39 on: May 08, 2009, 08:40:26 PM »
Quote
catch a beating ride the lightening or get shot?

And the shooter or assaulter bears no moral responsibility whatever in your book?

Unless the police officer was being assaulted in some way, I don't agree with you.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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French G.

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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #40 on: May 08, 2009, 09:42:35 PM »
Having gone through both the baton and taser training, I think the chance of death is far greater with baton strikes than a taser.  In the excitement of the moment, a good blow to the head is more likely to be deadly than a taser shock.

Correct, my issue with Tasers is where they get used in the continuum of force versus where they should be. I have never been trained on a taser but have trained for pepper spray and ASP. Pepper spray was above soft control but below hard control such as strikes, baton, and such.
Pepper spray okay on belligerent drunk for instance. Baton not. If you have to go to the head and neck with the baton you had better be able to articulate you reasons for applying deadly force. I think a taser ought to be somewhere around the baton, suitable if the alternatives were punching the guy, breaking his arm, in other words something just short of shooting him.

The things get used more like pepper spray, or a substitute for more back-up such as when a guy refuses to talk to the cop and turns around, promptly getting tased. Also, a baton or pepper spray neither looks, feels , or deploys like a gun. A taser??? The recent episode in Cali shows the danger of  warning your fellow cops you are deploying the taser then shooting the guy in the back.

Another issue I see is that after being pepper sprayed people still function. They can walk, talk, and sometimes still fight, but usually don't want to. With a taser, you drop uncontrolled. In my mind that makes the triggerman responsible if you hit your head on the curb, fall onto the piece of rebar sticking up or what have you. Tasers are just over-used.

You guys are probably right but cops aren't killing people with flashlights these days. 

I think the TV news helicopter did the most to end maglite compliance. For bad PR value nothing beats having the chief and mayor try to explain away footage of four cops beating the crpa out of a prone motorist.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #41 on: May 08, 2009, 09:47:03 PM »
And the shooter or assaulter bears no moral responsibility whatever in your book?

Unless the police officer was being assaulted in some way, I don't agree with you.

miss this part? "run amok?"?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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MicroBalrog

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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #42 on: May 08, 2009, 09:56:25 PM »
Actually, I responded to it. IF a person is 'running amok', they need to be smacked, whoever they are. But very often that's not what happens.
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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #43 on: May 08, 2009, 10:04:17 PM »
But very often that's not what happens.

really?  how to you qualify/quantify that remark?  source?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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MicroBalrog

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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #45 on: May 08, 2009, 10:41:07 PM »
hmmmm and the followup to the first story is.... wait for it

The report by forensic pathologist Charles Lee, of Vancouver General Hospital, listed the principal cause of death as "sudden death during restraint", with a contributory factor of "chronic alcoholism".[37]


story 2 is supposed to be indicative of what?  the boy wanted to think of himself as a martyr?
Video and eyewitness accounts

Part of the event is recorded in a six-minute cell phone video recorded by another student. The video has been widely disseminated online, and an edited version is available on the Daily Bruin site. Tabatabainejad is first heard (though not seen) repeatedly shouting "Don't touch me!" to the officers. Over the course of the video, he is stunned multiple times, while officers repeatedly order him to stand up and stop fighting, and threaten to administer further stuns. Tabatabainejad repeatedly states that he is not fighting and that he will leave the premises. He shouts that he has a medical condition,[12] and shouts "Here's your PATRIOT Act! Here's your *expletive deleted*ing abuse of power!" Witnesses say that when it was clear none of the other students were going to help him, Tabatabainejad said "Am I the only martyr?"[13] According to one witness, "[Tabatabainejad was] no possible danger to any of the police. [He was] getting shocked and Tasered as he was handcuffed."[4] Bystanders can be heard demanding the officers' names and badge numbers, and shouting for them to stop using the Taser on Tabatabainejad.[4]

At one point, the officers told the crowd to stand back and threatened to tase anyone who approached too closely.[12] A female student said that the officers threatened to tase her when she asked an officer for his name and badge number.[12] According to an ACLU attorney, such a threat of force in response to a badge number request constitutes illegal assault.[4] At 6:36 in the video, an officer tells a male student, "Get back over there or you’re going to get tased, too."[4][6] The student, wearing a white t-shirt in the video, can be seen "using intense body language" and "talking heatedly and with raised [voice]" prior to being confronted.[6] The officer first tells the student to "back up" before threatening tasing.[6]

A press release issued by the UCPD claims that the officers "asked Tabatabainejad to leave the premises multiple times", and that Tabatabainejad refused to leave.[8] Witnesses dispute this account, saying that Tabatabainejad had begun to walk toward the door with his backpack when an officer approached him and grabbed his arm, whereupon Tabatabainejad told the officer several times to let go.[14]

Tabatabainejad has said through his lawyers that he was stunned five times,[5] which is the count reported in the media immediately after the incident.[15][10][16][17] The reported count was reduced to three after the release of the independent report.[18]

The independent report clarifies:

    It is our understanding that Tabatabainejad remembers being tased on at least four or five occasions. Officer 2 [Durden] notes at the conclusion of his initial report that "it’s possible that I may have tased Tabatabainejad a 4th time, but I am unsure at which time this may have occurred." Various media accounts following the incident reported the common assumption from several students that Tabatabainejad "was hit with a Taser five times when he did not leave." Accordingly, we cannot rule out the possibility that Tabatabainejad was tased more than the three discrete times that we have identified and confirmed. Still, we note that the internal recording system in the X26 Taser is considered by most law enforcement personnel to be reliable, and we have no reason to believe that its record of three Taser firings is inaccurate.[6]

christ  he walked home.


story 3

This is the third incident involving a Taser that ASIRT has been called in to investigate. On Nov. 2, 2008, Cranbrook resident Gordon Walker Bowe died in police custody in Calgary after a Taser was used, though it may not have made contact with him. Less than a week before that, Trevor Grimolfson, 38, died in Edmonton after he was Tasered twice following a disturbance at a pawnshop.

On Aug. 10, 2006, Jason Doan, 28, of Red Deer was jolted three times by a Taser as RCMP officers tried to subdue him. He died three weeks later in hospital after going into cardiac arrest following the Taser deployments.


boy one they aren't sure he got zapped    boy 2 he dies 3 weeks later of cardiac arrest


can't find a cause of death on the lead in that story  can you?



was that an attempt to qualify?  or quantify?  autopsy results might help, well not help your cause  but help to decide whats going on.  in the third story the dead guy was "known to the police"  and his dad was a local politician who seemed to not go screaming "oh no they killed my kid."  i wonder why.  i have suspicions
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Gowen

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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #46 on: May 08, 2009, 11:08:38 PM »
Though I don't condone any abuse by the police officers, I can understand their lack of hesitance in using a less than lethal method.  An officer's #1 thought is I'm going home tonight, period!  I've known a few police officers over the years and they just want to pull their 12 hr shift and go home.  They see the dregs of society day in and day out and when they come upon someone who is acting strange, they not going to give them time to pull a weapon.

I think that someone would rather recover from a taze than a 9, 40, 45 or 357sig shot to the COM.  A choke hold or baton strike isn't any safer than getting tazed, people have died from all of them.
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RevDisk

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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #47 on: May 09, 2009, 01:19:31 AM »
how many folk been killed by tazers?  that weren't whacked on coke or meth?

We had a local case where correction officers killed a detainee who was in perfect health with a taser.  Had something to do with the fact that they applied the juice for a bit under three minutes. 

If you run enough volts through a person for an extended amount of time, even if they are in perfect health and not under the influence of any drugs or alcohol, it can kill someone.   

There are pretty well accepted guidelines for firearms.   Most police departments have an entire process for every time an LEO discharges a firearm.  Why not apply the same, with any necessary adjustments, to tasers?


Though I don't condone any abuse by the police officers, I can understand their lack of hesitance in using a less than lethal method.  An officer's #1 thought is I'm going home tonight, period!  I've known a few police officers over the years and they just want to pull their 12 hr shift and go home.  They see the dregs of society day in and day out and when they come upon someone who is acting strange, they not going to give them time to pull a weapon.

I was under the impression that their first priority should be their job.  If they don't wish to do their job and they think their personal safety is the sole concern, they need to find other employment.  I understand doing police work is dangerous.  Not anywhere remotely as dangerous as being a logger, fisherman, or lineman, but sure, it's a mildly dangerous job.  They should be aware of this before taking the job.   But the work is 100% volunteer and an officer can walk away at any moment they wish. 

I was a soldier for 6 years, and I couldn't exactly walk away if I felt my own skin was more important than doing my job while following the rules.  Actually, for service folks, to do so under combat conditions is a crime under the UCMJ.  Police have no such limitations and they will likely never have to deal with situations nearly as bad.   

I can understand being irate at dealing with scumbags and not liking the potential to be killed.  But as a professional, you are supposed to do your job regardless of your emotional state or you need to be relieved.  I buried more friends and associates than I care to remember.  But that doesn't mean I think soldiers should be opted out of following ROE's.  It's the price you pay for putting your name on the dotted line.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2009, 01:38:56 AM by RevDisk »
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #48 on: May 09, 2009, 01:44:01 AM »
what kinda tazer will let you juice em for 3 mins?  all the ones i've seen limit the duration
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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RevDisk

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Re: to taze or not to taze
« Reply #49 on: May 09, 2009, 02:07:55 AM »
what kinda tazer will let you juice em for 3 mins?  all the ones i've seen limit the duration

It wasn't three minutes continously, it was a total of under 3 minutes.  All of the LE tasers or stun guns I'm familiar with have a duration of 5 to 15 seconds.  That's a lot of zaps, which I think even furthers my argument for guidelines.  The new LE taser zaps for 5 second intervals.  So that'd be somewhere in the neighborhood of 36 'tasings'.  Uh...  If you need to tase someone roughly 36 times in one 'session',  you should probably be using another tool.
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