Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Jim147 on February 14, 2018, 03:50:09 PM
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Another school shooting. 20-50 injured, at least one dead shooter at large.
Edit: on phone can't get link to work.
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Yup. Looks ugly at this time:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/14/florida-high-school-under-lockdown-after-reports-shooter-victims-police-say.html
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Hmmm ...
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/parkland/fl-sb-active-shooter-marjory-stoneman-high-20180214-story.html
“I’m freaking out,” her father said. “This is crazy, this stuff shouldn’t be going on in these schools. People are crazy. I don’t know what goes on through these people’s minds these days, it’s a scary thing. It’s one of those things - you don’t want to put a metal protector and treat them like prisoners but they have to figure something out. You put your kids in school and it’s supposed to be a safe place and this stuff happens all the time.”
Yeah, it's "supposed to be" a safe space ... why, again? Oh, right ... because there's a law on a piece of paper that says no guns are allowed on school property. DAMN these school shooters -- can't they read?
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Up to 16 dead being reported. Shoot in custody. Eighteen year old ex-student. Others had expressed concern about his behavior in the past when he attended that school.
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https://heavy.com/news/2018/02/nicolas-nikolas-nick-cruz-florida-school-shooter-gunman-instagram/
Looks like there were plenty of warning signs, all of which were rigorously ignored.
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Drift #1, people often say in court "all the signs were there. Why didn't you (the justice system) do something before someone got hurt?" Like it or not, prosecutors don't file charges because someone shows "all the signs" of maybe committing a crime. We don't lock people up because there are a lot of red flags. And, I don't want to be part of a system that does.
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Drift #1, people often say in court "all the signs were there. Why didn't you (the justice system) do something before someone got hurt?" Like it or not, prosecutors don't file charges because someone shows "all the signs" of maybe committing a crime. We don't lock people up because there are a lot of red flags. And, I don't want to be part of a system that does.
Kid was banned from carrying a backpack on campus due to threats to other students. Somebody had legitimate reason to believe he was a threat long before this happened, but never followed up.
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Turned into a long afternoon here after posting that but yes sounds like anouther mental problem with access to weapons but the news is blaming guns.
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Turned into a long afternoon here after posting that but yes sounds like anouther mental problem with access to weapons but the news is blaming guns.
Fox News seems to be covering this pretty pretty fairly. Some of the libs they interview go on about gun control .... one Kongresskritter from Florida went on about AR15s not being appropriate for hunting, being unaware that people do use them for hunting, and that the 2nd Amendment isn't about hunting.
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I have not read, nor seen anything about this other then the top and bottom of the hour radio newz about what happened and numbers.
I'm going to guess he was on Psychotropic meds.
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At least they have him in custody instead of at the morgue. Now we can have a big show trial, he'll be declared insane and the taxpayers will support him for the rest of his life.
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https://heavy.com/news/2018/02/nicolas-nikolas-nick-cruz-florida-school-shooter-gunman-instagram/
Looks like there were plenty of warning signs, all of which were rigorously ignored.
Other than the threats that were reported by his ex-school, I didn't see anything unusual.
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https://heavy.com/news/2018/02/nicolas-nikolas-nick-cruz-florida-school-shooter-gunman-instagram/
Looks like there were plenty of warning signs, all of which were rigorously ignored.
QFT
“We received no warning… Potentially there could have been signs out there. But we didn’t have any warning or phone calls or threats that were made.”
Not "potentially," Mr. Superintendent. The signs were there, teachers and students were aware of them, the kid was deemed to be enough of a problem that he was expelled (not suspended) -- and now you want to pretend that there were no hints? Sorry, but that dawg don't hunt.
Nick Cruz was a former student at the school and was reported for making threats to students in the past, the Miami Herald reports.
“We were told last year that he wasn’t allowed on campus with a backpack on him,” Jim Gard, a math teacher who had the suspected shooter in his class last year, told the newspaper. “There were problems with him last year threatening students, and I guess he was asked to leave campus.”
Nope, there were no signs at all. (Hey, can I take off the blinders and remove the ear plugs now?)
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Drift #1, people often say in court "all the signs were there. Why didn't you (the justice system) do something before someone got hurt?" Like it or not, prosecutors don't file charges because someone shows "all the signs" of maybe committing a crime. We don't lock people up because there are a lot of red flags. And, I don't want to be part of a system that does.
We're not talking about a prosecutor filing charges for thought crimes. We're talking about a school system not doing its job to protect other students from a wacko nut job student.
To get down to basics, several years ago we had sandy Hook, where a kid shot his way into a school with an AR-15. That was supposed to be the wake-up call for schools all across the country to reexamine and beef up their security systems and protocols. Sandy Hook is a small town, and the school was a small elementary school.
This school is a large high school, with a student population of over 3,000 -- plus who knows how many teachers, administrators, and other support staff. That's the population of a small (or maybe not so small) town. And yet a student who had been expelled for threatening other students was able to just walk into the building WITH AN AR-15 RIFLE, and nobody saw him, nobody stopped him? WTF was this school's security system like? Whatever it was, it clearly was a joke.
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Kid was banned from carrying a backpack on campus due to threats to other students. Somebody had legitimate reason to believe he was a threat long before this happened, but never followed up.
And how exactly are the authorities going to "follow up"? We don't toss people in jail for showing the signs or whatever. He apparently was an active Facebook contributor according to the media.
Whatever security they have was probably inside the building. They need to watch the parking lot; that's where it starts whether it be a church or a school.
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http://www.heraldnet.com/news/grandmother-turns-in-teen-who-allegedly-planned-shooting/
In the same trend as some of the comments above, just yesterday we had a teenager arrested for planning a school shooting. Grandma read his journal and turned him in.
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Follow-up on the superintendent's idiotic comment that there were no signs: https://www.buzzfeed.com/briannasacks/the-fbi-was-warned-about-a-school-shooting-threat-from?utm_term=.oaXklV42a#.lfp2jd4oZ
Synopsis: The FBI was warned about the kid last year. Somebody didn't connect some dots, because here's a person who was expelled from the school, had a history of threatening, had been reported to the FBI, and yet who was able to just walk into a school of over 3,000 students with an AR-15, a gas mask, and smoke grenades. WTF?
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http://www.heraldnet.com/news/grandmother-turns-in-teen-who-allegedly-planned-shooting/
In the same trend as some of the comments above, just yesterday we had a teenager arrested for planning a school shooting. Grandma read his journal and turned him in.
???
Midway through February, the United States has seen six school shootings in 2018. The latest national tragedy unfolded in the opposite corner of the country Wednesday, when an ex-student opened fire at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High in Parkland, Florida. Seventeen people were reported as dead.
The article says there have been six school shootings in 2018. Including the latest one in Florida, I only know of four: Italy, TX; Benton, KY; Los Angeles, CA; and Parkland, FL. What are the other two?
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And the usual suspects didn't even wait for the bodies to reach room temperature before starting the same old crap about how disarming all the people who didn't do it is the only way we can possibly stop these people from breaking multiple existing state and federal laws... :mad:
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Synopsis: The FBI was warned about the kid last year. Somebody didn't connect some dots, because here's a person who was expelled from the school, had a history of threatening, had been reported to the FBI, and yet who was able to just walk into a school of over 3,000 students with an AR-15, a gas mask, and smoke grenades. WTF?
Serious question:
That school has 3000 kids walk into it every day carrying full backpacks. I could easily fit an AR, 10 or so mags, a gas mask and smokes into the bag I used in HS, with room left over for a couple books. How would you propose to handle security so that a school-age bad actor doesn't smuggle *expletive deleted*it in? Run ECP's? TSA style checkpoints to search bags? Those create their own security issues, as this forum has pointed out before. Camera's and facial recognition software? Secured doors with entry badges of some kind?
I'm not saying we should throw up our hands and say that there's no solution, but stopping one kid with a backpack in a crowd of 3000 kids with backpacks is a more daunting security problem then you seem to be implying. I say that as someone who has had to run Entry Control Points professionally, and had to solve some of these very issues, on a smaller, easier scale.
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Serious question:
That school has 3000 kids walk into it every day carrying full backpacks. I could easily fit an AR, 10 or so mags, a gas mask and smokes into the bag I used in HS, with room left over for a couple books. How would you propose to handle security so that a school-age bad actor doesn't smuggle *expletive deleted*it in? Run ECP's? TSA style checkpoints to search bags? Those create their own security issues, as this forum has pointed out before. Camera's and facial recognition software? Secured doors with entry badges of some kind?
I'm not saying we should throw up our hands and say that there's no solution, but stopping one kid with a backpack in a crowd of 3000 kids with backpacks is a more daunting security problem then you seem to be implying. I say that as someone who has had to run Entry Control Points professionally, and had to solve some of these very issues, on a smaller, easier scale.
[Ben takes off his shoes and walks ten miles to school in the snow]
Backpacks??? We didn't have backpacks when I went to school! Make kids put their stuff on those crappy bike racks mounted over the rear bike wheel with the spring loaded retainer and bunjee cords that are designed to make your books and homework fall out on the busiest road between home and school, or whenever you get near a group of school bullies so that they can rip up your stuff and laugh hysterically.
[Ben puts his shoes back on and hails an Uber on his phone to take him to school]
Serious question (not that it really addresses the underlying issue) but how much crap do kids take between home and school nowadays? I have no idea, so just throwing it out, but like school uniforms, could you create a situation where minimal stuff goes between home and school with the kid? Transparent or mesh backpacks? Not that you couldn't fit a pistol in your Space Ghost lunch box.
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Serious question:
That school has 3000 kids walk into it every day carrying full backpacks. I could easily fit an AR, 10 or so mags, a gas mask and smokes into the bag I used in HS, with room left over for a couple books. How would you propose to handle security so that a school-age bad actor doesn't smuggle *expletive deleted*it in? Run ECP's? TSA style checkpoints to search bags? Those create their own security issues, as this forum has pointed out before. Camera's and facial recognition software? Secured doors with entry badges of some kind?
I'm not saying we should throw up our hands and say that there's no solution, but stopping one kid with a backpack in a crowd of 3000 kids with backpacks is a more daunting security problem then you seem to be implying. I say that as someone who has had to run Entry Control Points professionally, and had to solve some of these very issues, on a smaller, easier scale.
I've got a better idea.
Why do we need a school of 3,000 children? As noted, this is larger than many towns. "Economies of scale" haven't really panned out as administrative bloat has more than over balanced any such gains.
Why don't we break up these massive school districts and return to more local schools and smaller buildings?
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Serious question:
That school has 3000 kids walk into it every day carrying full backpacks. I could easily fit an AR, 10 or so mags, a gas mask and smokes into the bag I used in HS, with room left over for a couple books. How would you propose to handle security so that a school-age bad actor doesn't smuggle *expletive deleted*it in? Run ECP's? TSA style checkpoints to search bags? Those create their own security issues, as this forum has pointed out before. Camera's and facial recognition software? Secured doors with entry badges of some kind?
Point well taken, and I don't have an answer. I have been in large schools in New York City (as a consultant, not as a student) and, even twenty years ago, they had metal detectors. It's not like new technology.
More to the point, the incident didn't happen in the morning, when the crush of students entering creates the problem you identified. It happened near the end of the day, which means he either snuck in during the morning rush and somehow stayed hidden for the entire school day -- or he was able to walk in with an AR-15, gas mask, and smoke grenades during the school day, when in all schools I've seen in the past decade or more all doors are locked and the only way in is through whatever passes for security at the front entrance.
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Point well taken, and I don't have an answer. I have been in large schools in New York City (as a consultant, not as a student) and, even twenty years ago, they had metal detectors. It's not like new technology.
More to the point, the incident didn't happen in the morning, when the crush of students entering creates the problem you identified. It happened near the end of the day, which means he either snuck in during the morning rush and somehow stayed hidden for the entire school day -- or he was able to walk in with an AR-15, gas mask, and smoke grenades during the school day, when in all schools I've seen in the past decade or more all doors are locked and the only way in is through whatever passes for security at the front entrance.
Not all schools. At least not where I live. I've been surprised by how little security some of these schools have.
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I've been surprised at the lack of security at many schools. The high school my daughter attended a few years ago had solid front doors (no glass). Once the school day started, the doors were locked. Need to get in? Push a button, and a secretary sitting in an office with no view of the entrance (and no closed-circuit camera surveillance) pushed a button to open the door.
Just after Sandy Hook, the grammar schools in the town next to mine made a big deal about installing a new security system. The system they installed was exactly the system that failed at Sandy Hook. :facepalm:
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I have not read, nor seen anything about this other then the top and bottom of the hour radio newz about what happened and numbers.
I'm going to guess he was on Psychotropic meds.
I'm guessing he wasn't. He was adopted, and both adoptive parents died. He was living with a friend's family, but I'm sure they had no control over him other than possibly some basic rules about behavior in the house. Even if he had been prescribed meds, I doubt he would have been taking them.
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Just after Sandy Hook, the grammar schools in the town next to mine made a big deal about installing a new security system. The system they installed was exactly the system that failed at Sandy Hook. :facepalm:
Just like the gun control laws that get enacted after things like Sandy Hook. Other states just pass laws identical to the ones that haven't stopped anything in the past, and won't in the future. And they complain that our thoughts and prayers are feckless...
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To address a couple of questions:
First, the issue of local run schools vs. state run schools vs. (unbelievable) fed run schools is being debated all the time. Got a friend on a local school board. He tells me all the time that there are people pushing to eliminate local school boards in favor of a state run system with local politically appointed administrators to run local districts. Like everything else, it's a money and power thing, and the debate is for another day, and should involve copious amounts of alcohol.
Second, on school security, it is another money thing. Who is going to pay for staff to run metal detectors and x-ray machines each morning, the equipment, etc.? I know when we finally updated our security at the courthouse, it was a big budget hit for the equipment and staff for the checkpoint.
Bottom line, schools are inherently soft targets. Yes, you can harden them, but it's gonna cost money, and people aren't gonna like seeing their kids behind armored walls with armed guards.
As for the backpacks, my kids are in high school. Each carries a backpack daily. In the pack they have a laptop, charging cord, a few spiral notebooks, a graphing calculator, the occasional book for reading assignments for a class. Younger, who is on the FIRST Robotics Team, also has a small tool kit, including a Gerber multi-tool, for work on the robots. Older kid, in training for track season, has a pair of hand weights that are gloves with lead shot sewn into the back of the hand and knuckles, for wearing while throwing shot and disc. So, essentially, both are lightly armed. ;)
But yes, the backpacks are necessary.
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The only potentially effective way of protecting schools that would be inexpensive would be teachers with CCW.
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As far as effectiveness some combination of RFID badging for admins and kids that only opens doors where you are authorized to be (similar to hospitals these days) and CCTV inside and out with a good facial recognition system and a database (kept up to date) of faces disallowed on the property that alerts a security team who can hit lockdown and call the cops would probably work.
It would allow one button lockdown of the school too, as the security staff could just tell the computer not to open any doors.
I can't imagine what it would cost though. Millions per school probably, plus ongoing salary for security that was high enough to attract and retain folks that would take a boring job seriously.
Plus the 3 million "I lost my badge and can't get into math" calls per year.
I suspect though, that it would take something like that, or more expensive, to make schools be much safer from this kind of attack. Of course if you only want them to feel safe, that's cheaper.
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I wonder if we're actually approaching a point where this is, tragically, such an oft-heard story that people will no longer break down the doors of news websites to find out the shooters name, grievances, Facebook page contents, and Netflix queue. And if that happens, if suicide by mass shooting is no longer a path to instant fame, will there be a marked decline in frequency?
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Backpacks???
My oldest is in HS. A backpack is a necessity when you have multiple books, large binders, a laptop (school-provided and necessary for schoolwork), and various other things with no time to get to your locker during the day.
Why do we need a school of 3,000 children? As noted, this is larger than many towns. "Economies of scale" haven't really panned out as administrative bloat has more than over balanced any such gains.
Why don't we break up these massive school districts and return to more local schools and smaller buildings?
Nobody wants to pay for the schools, teachers, etc.
Also, most of the larger schools I went to, including those in the 3k range, were in lower population areas with lower tax revenues as a result. The larger school provided greater economies of scale.
The only potentially effective way of protecting schools that would be inexpensive would be teachers with CCW.
Just because they have a CCW and some basic training doesn't make them effective under stress, especially in a chaotic active shooter environment. I'm not convinced that's the panacea we think it is.
Chris
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Second, on school security, it is another money thing. Who is going to pay for staff to run metal detectors and x-ray machines each morning, the equipment, etc.? I know when we finally updated our security at the courthouse, it was a big budget hit for the equipment and staff for the checkpoint.
Bottom line, schools are inherently soft targets. Yes, you can harden them, but it's gonna cost money, and people aren't gonna like seeing their kids behind armored walls with armed guards.
People don't like seeing their kids get shot, either. If they REALLY don't want their kids to be at risk of getting shot, then they have to stop listening to the bleating sheep and accept the idea that security means hardening the facility, and that doing so will cost money. Maybe the district doesn't really need a superintendent, two assistant superintendents, plus a principal and two or three assistant principals in each school. My high school (back in the early 1960s) was around 1,000 students. We had ONE superintendent, ONE principal, and ONE guidance counselor. And it was one of the best schools (academically) in the state. (Today there are multiple assistants for everything, an entire guidance department, and the academic rating is far below what it was when I went there. Go figure.)
As for the backpacks, my kids are in high school. Each carries a backpack daily. In the pack they have a laptop, charging cord, a few spiral notebooks, a graphing calculator, the occasional book for reading assignments for a class. Younger, who is on the FIRST Robotics Team, also has a small tool kit, including a Gerber multi-tool, for work on the robots. Older kid, in training for track season, has a pair of hand weights that are gloves with lead shot sewn into the back of the hand and knuckles, for wearing while throwing shot and disc. So, essentially, both are lightly armed. ;)
But yes, the backpacks are necessary.
Apologies, but I find it perversely and ironically amusing that you mention "books" almost as an after-thought.
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Apologies, but I find it perversely and ironically amusing that you mention "books" almost as an after-thought.
They are in today's schools. My oldest has very few textbooks. Everything is done online or via handouts. One of the few textbooks I've seen her use is for her AP class, but that one stays home. The books she carries are supplemental books or other things she's reading, not textbooks per se.
Chris
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Moar fake news: http://www.newser.com/story/255439/nikolas-cruz-questioned-for-hours-then-charged.html
According to this teaser article, "The New York Times notes that of the 10 deadliest shootings in modern US history, three—the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, the Las Vegas massacre, and November's Texas church shooting—have occurred in the last five months."
So what? That means that, of the ten deadliest shootings in "modern" (no explanation of how they define that), 70 percent did NOT happen in the last five months. And why pick five months, anyway? It's not a round number. It's not "this year," or the last half year, or the last year. We measure years in blocks of twelve months to a year, so five is a very arbitrary number. But ... it's just far enough back that it allows them to include the Las Vegas shooting. What a coincidence.
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They are in today's schools. My oldest has very few textbooks. Everything is done online or via handouts. One of the few textbooks I've seen her use is for her AP class, but that one stays home. The books she carries are supplemental books or other things she's reading, not textbooks per se.
And we wonder why kids today can't read ...
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Soo, we-all want to "turn Orwell up to 11", to fix this?
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People don't like seeing their kids get shot, either. If they REALLY don't want their kids to be at risk of getting shot, then they have to stop listening to the bleating sheep and accept the idea that security means hardening the facility, and that doing so will cost money.
Piffle. Even "hardening the facility" pretty well is like the TSA. It's mind-bogglingly expensive security theater. Let's say you did make everyone pass through metal detectors, nude-o-scopes, and gropey pat downs to get into San Quentin Middle School or Alcatraz Elementary. All those kids are bunched up in a big, soft target outside the door, waiting to get in.
I absolutely hate the idea of kids getting hurt - mine especially. That said, if my school district ever found the money to go all prison chic with hardened security I'm pulling my kids out. As horrific as these cases are, for my own children I'd much rather trade off the tiny risk instead of having my kids indoctrinated into an inmate mindset.
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Soo, we-all want to "turn Orwell up to 11", to fix this?
You'll note, I'm for dispersing the targets to decrease the number of possible victims at each location.
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My oldest is in HS. A backpack is a necessity when you have multiple books, large binders, a laptop (school-provided and necessary for schoolwork), and various other things with no time to get to your locker during the day.
Nobody wants to pay for the schools, teachers, etc.
Also, most of the larger schools I went to, including those in the 3k range, were in lower population areas with lower tax revenues as a result. The larger school provided greater economies of scale.
Just because they have a CCW and some basic training doesn't make them effective under stress, especially in a chaotic active shooter environment. I'm not convinced that's the panacea we think it is.
Chris
I don't think teachers with CCW are a pancea. However, what we have now is basically nothing, with the exception of a few schools that have cops stationed in them. Putting cops in every school, as great as that would be, would be extremely expensive.
Regular joes with weapons have been effective in stopping killers in the past (read about Joel Myrick, a principle who captured a school murderer.)
Mass murderers usually surrender (Woodham) or suicide (Paddock) at soon as they face real resistance. Becoming a victim themselves usually isn't part of their sick fantasies.
Teachers and staff should be allowed to CCW in schools.
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Soo, we-all want to "turn Orwell up to 11", to fix this?
No, Not really.
I was just musing on what it would take to do one of the "SOMETHING's!" many folks push for after these events. And, you know, have some chance at it working rather than being security theater.
I'm not sure the cost, monetarily and socially is worth it.
Mak's idea has some merit as well, but more, smaller schools is not without cost either, and provides more targets to people that are looking for schools.
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Apologies, but I find it perversely and ironically amusing that you mention "books" almost as an after-thought.
It's the digital age. Teachers post articles or texts on Google Docs for the kids to read instead of textbooks. For the most part, writing assignments are submitted electronically, no more printed research papers or essays (which has seriously dropped my printed expenses.) Even math is digital, with problems distributed electronically.
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And we wonder why kids today can't read ...
They read just fine*, they just don't read from textbooks as often as we did.
*My oldest is "honors-level everything" except Chorus, Spanish (her numeric grade is in the high 90s), and her one AP class. She reads non-school-related books regularly. I guess the lack of textbooks isn't that much of a problem...
Chris
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It's the digital age. Teachers post articles or texts on Google Docs for the kids to read instead of textbooks. For the most part, writing assignments are submitted electronically, no more printed research papers or essays (which has seriously dropped my printed expenses.) Even math is digital, with problems distributed electronically.
That's exactly how it works for my oldest. At first, I was dubious. I'm still annoyed at the lack of material to bring home, but it does allow for creative work timelines, the ability to work collaboratively, and the ability to deliver assignments even if you can't get to school (such as when sick).
Chris
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Back at work today, a temporary crown on my broken tooth. Here's where the blame is being placed by the usual suspects around the courthouse...
- Guns (of course)
- Lack of mental health services
- White privilege
- "Toxic masculinity" - yes, I looked it up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_masculinity This is the safest article I found.
- Heterosexual white men (of course)
- The juvenile justice system. This was a new one for me. I have not heard about this shooter having a prior record. But the blame is that this kid "showed all kinds of red flags" and no one did anything. What they want "the system" to do, I don't know. Can't go locking people up for posting pictures of themselves with guns on the internet.
- Violent video games/music/etc.
- Violent games like paintball and airsoft.
- Racism (he was just outed as a member of a white supremacy group)
- Trump
Also heard, and sharing for a sad laugh... "Banning guns because of these mass shootings is like banning dicks because of rape. The owners of both are highly unlikely to use them criminally, and taking them away doesn't really fix the problem. Just makes the criminal choose other methods."
Edited to add "capitalism", which I just heard. If it wasn't for the capitalists making money off of the blood/sweat/tears of the poor working class, more parents could be at home with their kids teaching them right from wrong. And there would be free mental health care. And the world would be a better place because we would all work cooperatively... [barf]
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Back at work today, a temporary crown on my broken tooth. Here's where the blame is being placed by the usual suspects around the courthouse...
- Guns (of course)
- Lack of mental health services
- White privilege
- "Toxic masculinity" - yes, I looked it up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_masculinity This is the safest article I found.
- Heterosexual white men (of course)
- The juvenile justice system. This was a new one for me. I have not heard about this shooter having a prior record. But the blame is that this kid "showed all kinds of red flags" and no one did anything. What they want "the system" to do, I don't know. Can't go locking people up for posting pictures of themselves with guns on the internet.
- Violent video games/music/etc.
- Violent games like paintball and airsoft.
- Racism (he was just outed as a member of a white supremacy group)
- Trump
Also heard, and sharing for a sad laugh... "Banning guns because of these mass shootings is like banning dicks because of rape. The owners of both are highly unlikely to use them criminally, and taking them away doesn't really fix the problem. Just makes the criminal choose other methods."
Edited to add "capitalism", which I just heard. If it wasn't for the capitalists making money off of the blood/sweat/tears of the poor working class, more parents could be at home with their kids teaching them right from wrong. And there would be free mental health care. And the world would be a better place because we would all work cooperatively... [barf]
Unsurprisingly the rejection of Christianity and the general secularization of the culture was not among the possible causes, because most of the people you encounter are likely already secularized.
(But there's another to add to the list for you.)
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SWMBO showed me a map this morning of the "18 school shootings" that have occurred since 1/1/2018. I was explaining to her that it was grossly inflated, she wasn't buying it. The Washington Post, of all MSM outlets, has taken that number and Bloomberg (et. all) to task over it. https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2018/02/15/good-work-wapo-completely-crushes-everytowns-bogus-school-shootings-stat/ (https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2018/02/15/good-work-wapo-completely-crushes-everytowns-bogus-school-shootings-stat/)
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Regular joes with weapons have been effective in stopping killers in the past (read about Joel Myrick, a principle who captured a school murderer.)
I don't think anyone's ever specified what Stephen Willeford is an NRA instructor of, but I notice they don't offer tactical rifle or bullet dodging instructor certifications, and he seems to have done reasonably well under stress too.
Soo, we-all want to "turn Orwell up to 11", to fix this?
Orwell's been done, they're working on Bradbury, hell, maybe Swift is next.
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Orwell's been done, they're working on Bradbury, hell, maybe Swift is next.
https://youtu.be/3tmd-ClpJxA
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Quote from: BTR on Today at 08:34:12 AM
The only potentially effective way of protecting schools that would be inexpensive would be teachers with CCW.
Just because they have a CCW and some basic training doesn't make them effective under stress, especially in a chaotic active shooter environment. I'm not convinced that's the panacea we think it is.
Granted it isn't the panacea some think it is but it beats the hell out of stopping bullets with your body to protect the kids. =|
bob
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Apparently there was an armed school resource officer at the school who never encountered the killer for some reason.
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My answer, armed teachers. A small security staff. Monitoring of video cameras.
Having POSSIBLE resistance has been documented in the past as being a deterrent.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I've heard the half joking solution of three combat vets and a coffee pot, not sure if it wouldn't be a good idea. Screen them, send them to LE academy, give them a cop radio and whatever personal weapons they wanted. No job except friendly interaction with students and shooting what needs shooting.
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SWMBO showed me a map this morning of the "18 school shootings" that have occurred since 1/1/2018. I was explaining to her that it was grossly inflated, she wasn't buying it. The Washington Post, of all MSM outlets, has taken that number and Bloomberg (et. all) to task over it. https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2018/02/15/good-work-wapo-completely-crushes-everytowns-bogus-school-shootings-stat/ (https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2018/02/15/good-work-wapo-completely-crushes-everytowns-bogus-school-shootings-stat/)
Good article. The WaPo considers that there have been five "legitimate" (pardon the term) school shootings in 2018. I only know of four. I wish the WaPo had identified which incidents it counts as school shootings, because I'd like to compare it against my list. I have:
- 1/22/2018 - Italy, TX
- 1/23 - Benton, KY
- 2/1 - Los Angeles (Sal Castro Middle School)
- 2/14 - Parkland, FL
I don't pretend to have a solution. Part of the problem is simply the fact that news is more ubiquitous these days. When I was in high school, I never read any part of the newspaper except the sports section and the comics. I paid no attention to politics, finance, fashion, or other subjects that everyone is now exposed to on a daily and regular basis by the Internet and the feeds on their cell phones. That factor, alone, has to contribute to the spread of the misguided notion that shooting up a school might be a good idea. We know that the Sandy Hook shooter compiled a database of school shootings, and I believe I've read that other school (and mass) shooters have likewise studied previous events in planning their own moment of infamy.
So part of the solution probably would require the media to stop acting like the media and rushing to saturate the headlines with the gory details. That's a tough sell. I had a good friend who was a newspaper editor who went on to become a professor of journalism at a well-known university with a respected (then) school of journalism. He died more than twenty years ago, and even well before his death he bemoaned more than twice the axiom that "body count sells newspapers." That's a sad truth, and it hasn't changed in decades.
It should be clear that more anti-gun laws aren't the solution. Schools are, by existing law, "gun-free" zones. Murder is a felony. When someone has made a conscious decision to ignore multiple felony laws to commit an armed attack on a school only a lunatic would think that adding one more law to be ignored is going to make a difference.
I guess turning schools into TSA checkpoints isn't practical, either. At the same time, it still should not have been possible for a kid who had been expelled to enter the building in the middle of the day (not with the morning in-rush), carrying an AR-15, a gas mask, and smoke grenades, without being detected or confronted until after he had opened fire. Metal detectors and TSA screening at the entrance may be security theater, but whatever this school has for security apparently doesn't even rise to the level of security theater. It would appear they had no effective security whatsoever.
I favor arming teachers and staff. That's one prong of the solution. What else?
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Apparently there was an armed school resource officer at the school who never encountered the killer for some reason.
Wrong place. It was a large, multi-story building. If he was on the other end, on a different floor, the shooter could have easily fired 100 rounds before the cop even got near the area of operations.
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It's my understanding that the football coach that was killed was also a "resource officer". While not a certainty, had been he been properly armed and trained the outcome could have been very different.
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It's my understanding that the football coach that was killed was also a "resource officer". While not a certainty, had been he been properly armed and trained the outcome could have been very different.
Even then, might have just had bad luck vs a guy with a rifle.
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I understand that but better any chance than no chance.
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It's my understanding that the football coach that was killed was also a "resource officer". While not a certainty, had been he been properly armed and trained the outcome could have been very different.
I've seen him described as a "security" officer, not "resource" officer. The term "school resource officer" typically (but I guess maybe not universally) refers to a sworn police officer who is assigned to duty with a school or group of schools. Our local high school now has a security team, but they aren't police officers and they aren't armed. They're two or three middle-aged guys who sit behind a desk in the entrance lobby and check IDs when visitors arrive at the school. I'm pretty sure their response if a shooter were to materialize would to maybe press an alrm button, and then run like hell.
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Update: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5394229/Florida-high-school-shooting-plunges-city-mourning.html
A local politician told DailyMail.com that the high school has high-definition surveillance cameras that captured every single shot by Cruz and authorities are pouring through them now.
The cameras allegedly picked up Cruz walking across the empty parking lot toward the school carrying his rifle, as classes were in session.
The two school resource officers, from the Broward County Sheriff's Office, are supposed to monitor the perimeter.
DailyMail.com reached out to the sheriff's office for comment, but they did not respond.
So my question still stands: How was a person carrying an AR-15, a gas mask, and smoke grenades -- who had been expelled from the school -- able to just walk into the building in the middle of the day? If there were supposed to be TWO school resource officers monitoring the perimeter, it becomes even more mystifying. Small wonder the sheriff's office hasn't responded -- they need time to get their cover story straight.
Columbine had an armed school resource officer, too. At Columbine, when the balloon went up the SRO was outside the building, in his squad car, so the guy who was supposed to be inside guarding the school ended up on the outside, along with the other cops who had to (sort of) "fight" their way in.
Maybe we don't need more gun laws, maybe we need better training and better protocols for SROs. It certainly needs to be looked at.
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[tinfoil]
How many times have we heard that the "proper authorities" had prior warning about one of these events yet did nothing to intervene?
It's enough to make a person wonder if they are actually getting the results they want; more carnage to use as a bludgeon against the 2nd Amendment.
Not so long ago I was unwilling to believe that our government was that evil. These days I'm not so sure.
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https://youtu.be/3tmd-ClpJxA
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weE4yUwfdeM
Welfare is expensive, and many of the recipients are quite large.
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[tinfoil]
How many times have we heard that the "proper authorities" had prior warning about one of these events yet did nothing to intervene?
It's enough to make a person wonder if they are actually getting the results they want; more carnage to use as a bludgeon against the 2nd Amendment.
Not so long ago I was unwilling to believe that our government was that evil. These days I'm not so sure.
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence."
There were so many missed opportunities along the way with this shooter (he was 19, which makes him an adult no matter how many times his public defender refers to him as a "child") that it's difficult to blame it on a conspiracy -- and I love conspiracy theories. At this point, everyone is heavily into CYA mode.
- The FBI was warned but they "couldn't positively identify the individual." Come on. The United States government managed to track one cow from Canada to a barn somewhere in Washington. The FBI couldn't find someone who posted in public on Youtube that he wanted to become a school shooter?
- The superintendent of schools continues to claim they had "no warnings." (Apparently what he means is that the shooter failed to pick up the phone on Wednesday to inform them that he was on the way, locked and loaded.)
- There were supposed to be two school resource officers monitoring the perimeter of the school site, yet high-res surveillance cameras that picked him up walking across the parking lot with the AR-15 visible weren't noticed. And, despite the fact that there was supposed to be only one way into the building, he was able to walk in -- with an AR-15 -- unchallenged.
- The mayor has said there was no way to "connect" with the shooter. BS. He had been in treatment -- he dropped out of treatment when his mother died -- which would have been when he needed it most. Somebody could have realized that and reached out.
I fully expect that we'll read about other examples of ball dropping before this incident disappears from the news cycle.
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Here is an interesting tidbit on his supposed "white nationalist" "militia" connections, http://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/2018/02/15/florida-school-shooting-suspect-nikolas-cruz-member-white-nationalist-militia-tallahassee-leader-say/341751002/
- "Toxic masculinity" - yes, I looked it up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_masculinity This is the safest article I found.
You are just now hearing this term? ???
I had read some article where a security guard saw him coming up to the building and had recognized who he was and had radioed it in right before he started shooting, not sure if he saw his weapons or if he just knew who he was.
Also read a comment on facebook where they mentioned that his girlfriend had just broken up with him, and it was Valentines Day. Haven't read any article myself on that one though.
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Also read a comment on facebook where they mentioned that his girlfriend had just broken up with him, and it was Valentines Day. Haven't read any article myself on that one though.
That has been mentioned in more than one article, but she didn't "just" break up with him. The breakup was last year, she had found a new boyfriend, and the shooter's expulsion was at least in part for picking a fight with the new boyfriend. The same articles also reported that he had been abusive toward the ex-girlfriend when they were an item.
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How many times have we heard that the "proper authorities" had prior warning about one of these events yet did nothing to intervene?
How many times do people freak out when someone is "detained" due to those "prior warnings" without yet committing a crime?
Chris
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Granted it isn't the panacea some think it is but it beats the hell out of stopping bullets with your body to protect the kids. =|
bob
I know we all like to think we're steely-eyed warriors with our gat in our hands, but few are. I'm concerned about a shaky teacher trying to head shot the one bad guy in a crowd of kids from down the hall.
Chris
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I know we all like to think we're steely-eyed warriors with our gat in our hands, but few are. I'm concerned about a shaky teacher trying to head shot the one bad guy in a crowd of kids from down the hall.
That doesn’t concern me too much. Any armed opposition to an active shooter threat - even incompetent opposition that creates more innocent casualties - is likely to reduce deaths overall.
I will say to all of the steely-eyed warriors on this site: The instant cops get there put your guns away or you are going to get shot. A lot.
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I know we all like to think we're steely-eyed warriors with our gat in our hands, but few are. I'm concerned about a shaky teacher trying to head shot the one bad guy in a crowd of kids from down the hall.
Chris
Better to try and fail than not try at all.
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I know we all like to think we're steely-eyed warriors with our gat in our hands, but few are. I'm concerned about a shaky teacher trying to head shot the one bad guy in a crowd of kids from down the hall.
Chris
Does that mean you don't want there to be any teachers having guns at schools? Or do you mean that arming teachers will require a lot of expensive training? What do you think is the difference between your concern about this, and the generic fear that an armed citizenry will mean too many accidental shootings?
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I know we all like to think we're steely-eyed warriors with our gat in our hands, but few are. I'm concerned about a shaky teacher trying to head shot the one bad guy in a crowd of kids from down the hall.
Chris
I find that scenario unlikely.
But I also agree with cordex, and I've expressed it when talking about the Vegas shooter.
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I know we all like to think we're steely-eyed warriors with our gat in our hands, but few are. I'm concerned about a shaky teacher trying to head shot the one bad guy in a crowd of kids from down the hall.
Somehow, I don't think the guy with the AR-15 is going to be in the middle of a crowd.
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Better to try and fail than not try at all.
Until it's your kid that gets shot by the teacher.
Does that mean you don't want there to be any teachers having guns at schools? Or do you mean that arming teachers will require a lot of expensive training? What do you think is the difference between your concern about this, and the generic fear that an armed citizenry will mean too many accidental shootings?
I specifically want to move beyond the trite statement that CCW will magically prevent this sort of occurrence. We need to understand that an active shooter scenario in a crowded and chaotic school is not the same as defending yourself against an armed mugger at bad breath ranges.
Most of the training required to qualify for CCW is all but useless in a mass shooting scenario. So, when someone bloviates about a "teacher with a CCW", I will assume the minimal amount of training and a teacher who is carrying a gun that might see a box of ammo a year, who doesn't do anything more advanced than shoot at static targets from a static position. Or, we can be a bit more specific and talk about the environment, the scenario, and the skills that will ensure a successful outcome and push for those to be incorporated into the discussion. CCW is a less than minimal spec to me.
I'm interested in people and processes, not tools.
Chris
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Somehow, I don't think the guy with the AR-15 is going to be in the middle of a crowd.
He's not going to be standing fully clear of people with a clear background and a safe backstop either. He's going to be moving and firing and kids are going to be screaming and running. Miss Beadle will have to pull her barely used KelTec 9mm and deal with the threat in that environment.
Don't we want to step away from the trite CCW discussion and talk about real qualifications and capabilities, to discuss actual standards that exceed the minimum spec for individual armed defense? Or shall we continue with the gun-as-a-talisman trope?
CCW in the context of these scenarios means the absolute minimum requirements to carry a gun. We should expect more for those we expect to defend masses of students. Define the training requirement, fund it, and provide incentives for teachers and staff willing to reach for that goal.
Chris
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Brits in my facebook feed are going absolutely *expletive deleted*ing nuts.
Seems that everyone of them is going on about how no massacres since handguns were banned at Dunblane 20 years ago.
Why don't you worry about your vaunted, failing, health system and let us not give a *expletive deleted*ck about you?
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Don't we want to step away from the trite CCW discussion and talk about real qualifications and capabilities, to discuss actual standards that exceed the minimum spec for individual armed defense? Or shall we continue with the gun-as-a-talisman trope?
CCW in the context of these scenarios means the absolute minimum requirements to carry a gun. We should expect more for those we expect to defend masses of students. Define the training requirement, fund it, and provide incentives for teachers and staff willing to reach for that goal.
Where has anyone suggested that armed teachers have only bare minimum CCW qualifications?
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And the media seem to be piling on with the fake news. Update! The Florida school massacre was Trump's fault!
https://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb/nicholas-fondacaro/2018/02/15/nets-push-fake-news-trump-made-it-easier-mentally-ill-buy
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Until it's your kid that gets shot by the teacher.
I specifically want to move beyond the trite statement that CCW will magically prevent this sort of occurrence. We need to understand that an active shooter scenario in a crowded and chaotic school is not the same as defending yourself against an armed mugger at bad breath ranges.
Most of the training required to qualify for CCW is all but useless in a mass shooting scenario. So, when someone bloviates about a "teacher with a CCW", I will assume the minimal amount of training and a teacher who is carrying a gun that might see a box of ammo a year, who doesn't do anything more advanced than shoot at static targets from a static position. Or, we can be a bit more specific and talk about the environment, the scenario, and the skills that will ensure a successful outcome and push for those to be incorporated into the discussion. CCW is a less than minimal spec to me.
I'm interested in people and processes, not tools.
Chris
I would only interject (and those here with LE experience or other relevant involvement can correct me) that the above would apply to cops as well, in that just because someone with a badge is on site, it doesn't mean it's a person with a badge AND qualified to handle such a situation.
In several of the training classes I have taken, some of the instructors were LE. They may have been blowing smoke up our asses, but in the "get off the X" classes, they all pointed out that we were getting better training than the average cop. I will point out that the closest training I had in any of those classes to "mass shooting" was stuff like restaurant scenarios, and they all involved clear targets (i.e., no "hostage" or "innocent bystander" blocking targets, etc.).
That's average cop, not SWAT, etc. Many CCW holders just get a permit and a gun and nothing more than basic safety training (I suppose not even that in constitutional carry states). Many cops get some minimal training, then consider their gun an inconvenience for the remainder of their careers, while others take jobs that require extensive firearms and tactical training.
If a cop happened to be on site at a school shooting, I'm betting there's a higher likelihood that they would be the cop that gives the "don't do drugs" talk (and considers their firearm an inconvenience) than a cop with advanced training. So it could be a cop with little more training than NRA Defensive Pistol I, which many CCW holders take as a required class.
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http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-mclaughlin-parkland-shooting-20180215-story.html
An amazingly balanced article in the LA Times of all places.
And it brings up my preferred response on this: We need common sense media control. These maniacs want infamy, and ought to be denied it. There is no reason anyone other than the police and prosecutors (judges, too, I guess) ever need to know his name. Automatic 1 year in prison and a $50,000 fine per instance of any media person publicizing his name.
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He's not going to be standing fully clear of people with a clear background and a safe backstop either. He's going to be moving and firing and kids are going to be screaming and running. Miss Beadle will have to pull her barely used KelTec 9mm and deal with the threat in that environment.
Don't we want to step away from the trite CCW discussion and talk about real qualifications and capabilities, to discuss actual standards that exceed the minimum spec for individual armed defense? Or shall we continue with the gun-as-a-talisman trope?
CCW in the context of these scenarios means the absolute minimum requirements to carry a gun. We should expect more for those we expect to defend masses of students. Define the training requirement, fund it, and provide incentives for teachers and staff willing to reach for that goal.
Chris
From the reporting in this case, he went room to room and just picked off hiding people. Seems to me the teacher would have a pretty easy job: Gun trained on the door, shoot the guy with a rifle that comes through it.
Yes, every scenario would not necessarily be like that, but this one appears to be.
In your scenario, he gets the drop on the first classroom. What happens in the next one he moves on to?
CCW doesn't have to prevent every single instance and every death, but it would clearly mitigate the damage and decrease the potential number of victims.
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http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-mclaughlin-parkland-shooting-20180215-story.html
An amazingly balanced article in the LA Times of all places.
And it brings up my preferred response on this: We need common sense media control. These maniacs want infamy, and ought to be denied it. There is no reason anyone other than the police and prosecutors (judges, too, I guess) ever need to know his name. Automatic 1 year in prison and a $50,000 fine per instance of any media person publicizing his name.
That has been tried, to far lesser degree, in Ohio. Judges were putting gag orders on reporters, prohibiting reporting the names of juvenile offenders. Newspapers sued and won on 1A grounds.
That said, I agree that to many of these broken individuals, the fame that comes with a mass shooting is far too appealing. This one seems especially broken, as it appears he not only planned to become a mass shooter, but also wanted to live to enjoy his fame.
Back when Columbine happened, and Klebold and Harris got all of the fame, I was sitting in a bar drinking with a criminal psychologist we worked with (I was a prosecutor then). We were talking about it, and he finished a shot, and said to me that it was only the beginning. With the taboo of shooting children broken, and the publicity the shooters got, others would follow in their path. He then called for more shots, and finished by saying that he didn't think it would ever end. Time has proven him right.
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From the reporting in this case, he went room to room and just picked off hiding people. Seems to me the teacher would have a pretty easy job: Gun trained on the door, shoot the guy with a rifle that comes through it.
Yes, every scenario would not necessarily be like that, but this one appears to be.
In your scenario, he gets the drop on the first classroom. What happens in the next one he moves on to?
CCW doesn't have to prevent every single instance and every death, but it would clearly mitigate the damage and decrease the potential number of victims.
I've sort of been waiting for the wildly swinging reporting to level out, but if the above is accurate, it would certainly be similar to the Texas Luby's shooting, which could have been stopped by a determined individual with basic handgun skills (the resulting legislation seemed to agree).
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Holy Hell, I just heard one I had to share. Legislative aid in the hallway just said that they are looking into the idea of requiring that gun purchases be delayed for a 30 day period for a full background check and (here's the good part), the proposed purchase be published so that the public knows and can provide feedback on whether the buyer has issues that should prevent the purchase from being completed!!!
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Holy Hell, I just heard one I had to share. Legislative aid in the hallway just said that they are looking into the idea of requiring that gun purchases be delayed for a 30 day period for a full background check and (here's the good part), the proposed purchase be published so that the public knows and can provide feedback on whether the buyer has issues that should prevent the purchase from being completed!!!
Wow. The problems arising from that one are myriad. Please congratulate him on quite possibly the worst idea I've ever heard to "solve" this problem. I think he deserves recognition for that monumental failure of an idea.
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Holy Hell, I just heard one I had to share. Legislative aid in the hallway just said that they are looking into the idea of requiring that gun purchases be delayed for a 30 day period for a full background check and (here's the good part), the proposed purchase be published so that the public knows and can provide feedback on whether the buyer has issues that should prevent the purchase from being completed!!!
Lets apply that to alcohol and cars.
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Holy Hell, I just heard one I had to share. Legislative aid in the hallway just said that they are looking into the idea of requiring that gun purchases be delayed for a 30 day period for a full background check and (here's the good part), the proposed purchase be published so that the public knows and can provide feedback on whether the buyer has issues that should prevent the purchase from being completed!!!
What's thirty days? This shooter bought the AR-15 in February of 2017 -- over a year before the incident. He went through a one-week wait before he could pick it up -- what's another three weeks?
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Until it's your kid that gets shot by the teacher.
Nonsense. I would much rather someone try to stop the perp and accidentally kill my child than for everyone to stand around and wait/hope/pray for help.
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What's thirty days? This shooter bought the AR-15 in February of 2017 -- over a year before the incident. He went through a one-week wait before he could pick it up -- what's another three weeks?
Do you know why there was a one week wait? I don't think Florida requires a waiting period.
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I would only interject (and those here with LE experience or other relevant involvement can correct me) that the above would apply to cops as well, in that just because someone with a badge is on site, it doesn't mean it's a person with a badge AND qualified to handle such a situation.
In several of the training classes I have taken, some of the instructors were LE. They may have been blowing smoke up our asses, but in the "get off the X" classes, they all pointed out that we were getting better training than the average cop. I will point out that the closest training I had in any of those classes to "mass shooting" was stuff like restaurant scenarios, and they all involved clear targets (i.e., no "hostage" or "innocent bystander" blocking targets, etc.).
Local gun shop (3 miles from my home) is owned and operated by two former police officers. One left the force after ten years and went into another line of work, the second stayed in for 20 or 25 years and then retired. #2 is clear that he fired his duty handgun only when required for qualification, and he retired when the department switched from revolvers to semi-autos.
Current training for most (if not all) departments for active shooter situations is for the first to arrive to go right in. The days of "establishing a perimeter" and waiting for SWAT are behind us. So the first person into a school could well be a cop like my friend at the gun store, who hates handguns and ONLY shoots them when necessary for qualification.
If a cop happened to be on site at a school shooting, I'm betting there's a higher likelihood that they would be the cop that gives the "don't do drugs" talk (and considers their firearm an inconvenience) than a cop with advanced training. So it could be a cop with little more training than NRA Defensive Pistol I, which many CCW holders take as a required class.
The SRO at my town's grammar school for a number of years was an older officer who must have weighed close to 300 pounds. When he wasn't being the SRO (and, yes, the D.A.R.E. officer) he was the department's photographer. He might have had some specialized firearms/tactical training, but I very much doubt it.
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Do you know why there was a one week wait? I don't think Florida requires a waiting period.
Article didn't say. Maybe because he was under 21?
Link: https://nypost.com/2018/02/16/suspected-school-shooter-says-attack-was-instructed-by-demons/
[Edit to add]Apparently some counties in Florida have waiting periods in excess of state law. Mannlicher -- true?
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I specifically want to move beyond the trite statement that CCW will magically prevent this sort of occurrence. We need to understand that an active shooter scenario in a crowded and chaotic school is not the same as defending yourself against an armed mugger at bad breath ranges.
Most of the training required to qualify for CCW is all but useless in a mass shooting scenario. So, when someone bloviates about a "teacher with a CCW", I will assume the minimal amount of training and a teacher who is carrying a gun that might see a box of ammo a year, who doesn't do anything more advanced than shoot at static targets from a static position. Or, we can be a bit more specific and talk about the environment, the scenario, and the skills that will ensure a successful outcome and push for those to be incorporated into the discussion. CCW is a less than minimal spec to me.
I'm interested in people and processes, not tools.
Chris
You might have stopped with "most of the training required to qualify for CCW is all but useless." Saying "arm the teachers" may be trite, but pointing out that guns aren't magical talismans is equally trite, isn't it? I don't think anyone here is unwilling to have a discussion about what, realistically, can be done. Well, maybe Ben, but ya know how he is. Kinda old and senile these days.
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Here it comes: https://nypost.com/2018/02/16/store-owners-are-scared-after-selling-rifle-to-alleged-gunman/
Another lawyer, Stuart Kaplan, who is representing the corporate entity of Sunrise Tactical Supply [the gun store that sold the AR-15], noted that Cruz filled out a firearms transaction form issued by the Department of Justice and included a copy of his Florida driver’s license.
Regarding form questions about whether he had ever been adjudicated for mental illness or whether he had ever been institutionalized related to mental health illness, Cruz answered “no,” Kaplan said.
“I think the bigger question is: We know that he suffered from some sort of mental health illness. I guess we need to decide or find out whether or not he was being treated … and I think that loophole is whether or not a mental health professional who is treating an individual should have some sort of reporting requirement or is there some sort of database that would collect this information so that in an event that a particular person would go to purchase a weapon, we could at least screen them?” said Kaplan.
You're a lawyer, *expletive deleted*tard. There was no "loophole." The law is crystal clear (unless you're the Social Security Administration or the Veterans Administration): a person is prohibited if they have been "adjudicated" mentally defective. I hate it when people (or the media) try to portray compliance with the law as "exploiting a loophole." By that standard, I exploit a loophole every day, when I drive at or below the posted speed limit in order to avoid getting a speeding ticket.
As for treatment -- we already know that he was not being treated. He had been treated in the past, and he stopped going for treatment when his mother died.
Now we get into some really deep kimchee. If the therapist who was treating him had any inklings about his propensity for violence and/or the voices he now claims he was hearing since age 12, did the mental health practitioner have any legal or moral responsibility/duty to try to follow up when the shooter stopped coming for sessions? Where do you draw the line between trying to be proactively helpful vs. being an ambulance chaser to maintain your cash flow vs. butting into a patient's personal life without justification?
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Do you know why there was a one week wait? I don't think Florida requires a waiting period.
[Edit to add]Apparently some counties in Florida have waiting periods in excess of state law. Mannlicher -- true?
FL has a state mandated min. waiting period. 3 days I think. It's waived if you have a CCW (which is why I'm not 100% sure of it's length)
Counties can add to it, and some do.
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Wrong place. It was a large, multi-story building. If he was on the other end, on a different floor, the shooter could have easily fired 100 rounds before the cop even got near the area of operations.
Worse than that it was a large muti-story, multi-building campus. https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1YAM8uxWYwqJR1Lgd5HZVzKKVwUX5J0X0&hl=en-US&gl=us&ll=26.304197629983225%2C-80.26902516434859&z=18 (https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1YAM8uxWYwqJR1Lgd5HZVzKKVwUX5J0X0&hl=en-US&gl=us&ll=26.304197629983225%2C-80.26902516434859&z=18)
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Well, maybe Ben, but ya know how he is. Kinda old and senile these days.
Eh? What's that sonny? Pipe down and go fetch me my Vicks Vaporub and a bottle of whiskey!
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Now we get into some really deep kimchee. If the therapist who was treating him had any inklings about his propensity for violence and/or the voices he now claims he was hearing since age 12, did the mental health practitioner have any legal or moral responsibility/duty to try to follow up when the shooter stopped coming for sessions? Where do you draw the line between trying to be proactively helpful vs. being an ambulance chaser to maintain your cash flow vs. butting into a patient's personal life without justification?
Yes. Most states follow a version of the Tarasoff doctrine in which you are either allowed or required to report a patient who is threatening bodily harm against someone. The sticky wicket, having dealt with many of these cases, is the patient who says they were 'just kidding' or are making vague, non-specific threats; the therapist then has to decide if the patient's statements are actionable and should be reported to LE. It is a big thing for a therapist to violate confidentiality, so most of them ponder this long and hard before deciding to do so.
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Brits in my facebook feed are going absolutely *expletive deleted*ing nuts.
Seems that everyone of them is going on about how no massacres since handguns were banned at Dunblane 20 years ago.
Why don't you worry about your vaunted, failing, health system and let us not give a *expletive deleted*ck about you?
Wasn't there a terrorist attack in London recently on some bridge?
How about regular acid attacks?
Manchester arena...
Subway bombings...
Knife attacks routine enough that "pointy" knives are now "evil".
Yeah, I don't give a crap for the opinions of "enlightened Europeans" about how we ought to do things here.
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Wasn't there a terrorist attack in London recently on some bridge?
How about regular acid attacks?
Manchester arena...
Subway bombings...
Knife attacks routine enough that "pointy" knives are now "evil".
Yeah, I don't give a crap for the opinions of "enlightened Europeans" about how we ought to do things here.
Well, they are right, England does have a lower rate of mass shooting (and fewer deaths!) than the U.S. does. It's also an island with (at least theoretically) an easier time controlling borders than the U.S. would.
France, on the other hand, is not an island. And has the type of gun restrictions the gun grabbers here in the U.S. dream about:
https://crimeresearch.org/2015/06/comparing-death-rates-from-mass-public-shootings-in-the-us-and-europe/
Oh, look at that. Both in number of incidents (per capita) and deaths (per capita) France is worse than the U.S. in mass shootings. (As noted in the article, this doesn't include bombings which they have FAR more of.)
I wonder what that says about the usefulness of said gun control measures.
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Current training for most (if not all) departments for active shooter situations is for the first to arrive to go right in. The days of "establishing a perimeter" and waiting for SWAT are behind us. So the first person into a school could well be a cop like my friend at the gun store, who hates handguns and ONLY shoots them when necessary for qualification.
As I think I've said before, active shooter doctrine in my county is that the first three units on the scene go in together. Never one. The SWAT guys also train to never enter a room with just one guy. Of course, the situation is different for an SRO who is already in the school and probably alone - they have to do what they can with what they have. But yeah, some cops are shooters and some are not and the initial responders will not wait for the SWAT callout.
The SRO at my town's grammar school for a number of years was an older officer who must have weighed close to 300 pounds. When he wasn't being the SRO (and, yes, the D.A.R.E. officer) he was the department's photographer. He might have had some specialized firearms/tactical training, but I very much doubt it.
Another good point. The cops that I know who put in for SRO are not usually the same kinds of guys who put in for SWAT duty. Other than the periodic active shooter training the department gives all cops, I don't think the SROs get any particular enhanced training.
He's not going to be standing fully clear of people with a clear background and a safe backstop either. He's going to be moving and firing and kids are going to be screaming and running. Miss Beadle will have to pull her barely used KelTec 9mm and deal with the threat in that environment.
As others have pointed out, most cops won't make a clean shot in that scenario either. Doesn't mean it wouldn't be better to have one there.
Don't we want to step away from the trite CCW discussion and talk about real qualifications and capabilities, to discuss actual standards that exceed the minimum spec for individual armed defense? Or shall we continue with the gun-as-a-talisman trope?
CCW in the context of these scenarios means the absolute minimum requirements to carry a gun. We should expect more for those we expect to defend masses of students. Define the training requirement, fund it, and provide incentives for teachers and staff willing to reach for that goal.
Of course guns are not a magical talisman. But neither do we have to expect everyone who carries one in a school (or anywhere else) to all be elite marksmen to see a potential value to it.
To realistically train people (teachers, cops, whomever) to the point they could make the kinds of high-stress shots in the scenarios you're talking about with would take lots and lots and lots of training. Then you have to keep them sharp. I'm thinking significant monthly training at minimum with both force-on-force and range components. Good luck finding a budget or volunteers for that kind of commitment at all 100,000ish public schools we've got in the US.
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Holy Hell, I just heard one I had to share. Legislative aid in the hallway just said that they are looking into the idea of requiring that gun purchases be delayed for a 30 day period for a full background check and (here's the good part), the proposed purchase be published so that the public knows and can provide feedback on whether the buyer has issues that should prevent the purchase from being completed!!!
I bet BFA will kill that quickly.
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I know we all like to think we're steely-eyed warriors with our gat in our hands, but few are. I'm concerned about a shaky teacher trying to head shot the one bad guy in a crowd of kids from down the hall.
Chris
Thank goodness there were no armed teachers on the scene or someone might have been hurt!
How well did the lack of armed teachers work in this case?
Armed folks have been effective in stopping mass killers multiple times in the USA. It doesn't stop everyone from being killed, but it does help. This is a fact. Look up the stories below if you don't believe me.
Joel Myrick, a principles with a pistol he retrieved from his car off campus captured a school shooter.
Stephen Willeford wounded the texas church killer, chased him down and forced him to suicide.
An uber driver stopped a mass shooting in Chicago by shooting the perp; no innocents were harmed.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-uber-driver-shoots-gunman-met-0420-20150419-story.html (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-uber-driver-shoots-gunman-met-0420-20150419-story.html)
I can find more stories if you want, these are ones I thought of off the top of my head. They are not hard to find.
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Holy Hell, I just heard one I had to share. Legislative aid in the hallway just said that they are looking into the idea of requiring that gun purchases be delayed for a 30 day period for a full background check and (here's the good part), the proposed purchase be published so that the public knows and can provide feedback on whether the buyer has issues that should prevent the purchase from being completed!!!
What legislature?
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What legislature?
Ohio.
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Has anyone seen a story with how he got into the school? I haven't seen or heard anything about that.
Even in my quiet little town he would need to be let in by someone in the office or of shot the doors out.
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Apparently there was an armed school resource officer at the school who never encountered the killer for some reason.
I'm skipping to the end of the thread, but I am REALLY interested in the answer to that question. if it's already been answered I'll find it eventually...
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Holy crap FBI
https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2018/02/16/holy-sht-fbi-got-tip-about-nikolas-cruz-last-month-and-did-nothing/
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http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-mclaughlin-parkland-shooting-20180215-story.html
An amazingly balanced article in the LA Times of all places.
And it brings up my preferred response on this: We need common sense media control. These maniacs want infamy, and ought to be denied it. There is no reason anyone other than the police and prosecutors (judges, too, I guess) ever need to know his name. Automatic 1 year in prison and a $50,000 fine per instance of any media person publicizing his name.
Mass shootings are not all *that* common and they are still sensational. They would never admit it but I think the media intentionally make the maniacs into rockstars to encourage more crazies to do the same -- because it makes good television. It will keep happening until the shootings become boring, then they will go back to just being local news.
The events are newsworthy, but they should never show the perp's face, and only refer to him using terms like "loser" and maybe the more progressive or edgy news source can use "*expletive deleted*bag".
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Holy crap FBI
https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2018/02/16/holy-sht-fbi-got-tip-about-nikolas-cruz-last-month-and-did-nothing/
Why are you surprised? The FBI is just another bloated, inept government agency. Neither the FBI nor local law enforcement have an obligation to protect people.
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A bit dated, but worth mentioning:
https://crimeresearch.org/2015/06/comparing-death-rates-from-mass-public-shootings-in-the-us-and-europe/
(https://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Screen-Shot-2016-04-05-at-Tuesday-April-5-1.05-AM.png)
(https://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Screen-Shot-2016-04-05-at-Tuesday-April-5-1.06-AM.png)
We really need to expose the lie that "This only happens in the United States!"
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Why are you surprised? The FBI is just another bloated, inept government agency. Neither the FBI nor local law enforcement have an obligation to protect people.
The FBI has lost a lot of credibility in the last two years as far as I'm concerned. I believe there have been 4 mass shootings in the US in the last two years.
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Holy crap FBI
https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2018/02/16/holy-sht-fbi-got-tip-about-nikolas-cruz-last-month-and-did-nothing/
Further information here: https://nypost.com/2018/02/16/fbi-failed-to-investigate-tip-on-school-shooter-last-month/
And: https://nypost.com/2018/02/16/rick-scott-calls-for-fbi-director-to-resign-after-shooter-tip-was-missed/
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I'm skipping to the end of the thread, but I am REALLY interested in the answer to that question. if it's already been answered I'll find it eventually...
By skipping you missed my link: http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=56717.msg1150025#msg1150025 (http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=56717.msg1150025#msg1150025)
We are talking about a very large campus for 3000 students, not an elementary school like Sandy Hook.
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This made me chuckle:
(https://scontent.fsnc1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/27867322_2401892333173539_109167689187468400_n.png?oh=2982da5d7aa3eb5e8a53d044b32ea91b&oe=5B212847)
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A bit dated, but worth mentioning:
https://crimeresearch.org/2015/06/comparing-death-rates-from-mass-public-shootings-in-the-us-and-europe/
(https://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Screen-Shot-2016-04-05-at-Tuesday-April-5-1.05-AM.png)
(https://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Screen-Shot-2016-04-05-at-Tuesday-April-5-1.06-AM.png)
We really need to expose the lie that "This only happens in the United States!"
That first one is kinda cherry picked since the date range gets that Brevik scum in there for Norway, and with such a small population it spikes the rate.
But now if we opened the date range up to back to around 1914...
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The media found a way to blame the Florida shooting on the NRA -- because they helped support the school's junior ROTC shooting team.
http://www.wbrc.com/story/37525712/shooting-suspect-was-on-school-rifle-team-that-got-nra-grant
Why not just blame the Army?
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The media found a way to blame the Florida shooting on the NRA -- because they helped support the school's junior ROTC shooting team.
http://www.wbrc.com/story/37525712/shooting-suspect-was-on-school-rifle-team-that-got-nra-grant
Why not just blame the Army?
Give them time...
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One more question answered: how did he get into the building?
Answer: It wasn't locked. http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/parkland/florida-school-shooting/fl-florida-school-shooting-20180215-story.html
Apparently, due to being a multi-building campus, their security consists of locking gates around the perimeter of the site, but the buildings themselves aren't locked. So, by simply showing up 20 minutes before dismissal, when the gates are unlocked to allow people to leave, he was able to just walk right in.
And there's a possibility that the SRO wasn't present on the campus. The sheriff's office isn't saying, which means either that they don't know ... or that they DO know and don't want to admit that they left the school unprotected.
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The media found a way to blame the Florida shooting on the NRA -- because they helped support the school's junior ROTC shooting team.
http://www.wbrc.com/story/37525712/shooting-suspect-was-on-school-rifle-team-that-got-nra-grant
Why not just blame the Army?
They probably don't want to go that direction. https://www.facebook.com/ABCNews/videos/10156913634718812/
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They probably don't want to go that direction. https://www.facebook.com/ABCNews/videos/10156913634718812/
Can't see the link without a Facebook account, which I don't have. What is it?
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Can't see the link without a Facebook account, which I don't have. What is it?
http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/florida-shooting-students-detail-actions-protect-classmates-shooter-53111854
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http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/florida-shooting-students-detail-actions-protect-classmates-shooter-53111854
Interesting. I had read a report on the guys with the Kevlar, but it didn't say anything about the Police Explorer aspect.
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Some states make that illegal. Body armor/body armor in schools/armored backpacks. Check state laws 1st!!!
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We need to invite her here!
Florida Teacher of the Year's gun violence post goes viral after school shootinghttp://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/16/florida-teacher-years-gun-violence-post-goes-viral-after-school-shooting.html
“Until we, as a country, are willing to get serious and talk about mental health issues, lack of available care for the mental health issues, lack of discipline in the home, horrendous lack of parental support when the schools are trying to control horrible behavior at school (oh no! Not MY KID. What did YOU do to cause my kid to react that way?), lack of moral values, and yes, I’ll say it – violent video games that take away all sensitivity to ANY compassion for others’ lives – as well as reality TV that makes it commonplace for people to constantly scream up in each others’ faces and not value any other person but themselves, we will have a gun problem in school,” the sixth-grade language arts teacher wrote.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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We need to invite her here!
Florida Teacher of the Year's gun violence post goes viral after school shootinghttp://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/16/florida-teacher-years-gun-violence-post-goes-viral-after-school-shooting.html
Spot on. And it won't win her many friends among parents, unfortunately.
“But you know what? I never dreamed of shooting anyone with his guns. I never dreamed of taking one! I was taught respect for human life, compassion, rules, common decency, and most of all, I was taught that until I moved out, my life and bedroom wasn’t mine...it was theirs. And they were going to know what was happening because they loved me and wanted the best for me.”
Such un-American thoughts must be eradicated. Send her off to the reeducation gulag.
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Did the media get this wrong? If so -- mistake, or "spin"?
https://nypost.com/2018/02/17/school-shooters-brother-committed-to-mental-facility/
The shooter's younger brother has been admitted to a mental health facility under Florida's Baker Act. This allows someone to be involunraily admitted for observation and evaluation. The article uses the term "committed," which would seem to be the legal trigger for making him a prohibited person. However, it has always been my understanding that admission for evaluation, such as under the Baker Act, is not "involuntarily committed" under the law as it pertains to disqualifying a person from firearms possession.
Would any of the resident legal eagles kindly chime in and clarify how this works?
Reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_Mental_Health_Act
http://www.dcf.state.fl.us/programs/samh/mentalhealth/laws/BakerActManual.pdf
It seems to me that what's happening is what the law actually refers to as an "involuntary examination." I don't think that's a, involuntary committment under the law (although it may lead to one).
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Anyone have a non-tinfoily link to a source for the SSRI connection to school shooters?
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SSRI? ???
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Anti-depressants.
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They affect different people in different ways. For me, Prozac WORKS. It greatly reduces my depression and helps with my anger issues (I get ticked quickly and go from 0 to 8-10 like a light switch). Now, it's not near as bad and I "get over it" quickly. Even when I'm ticked, 99.999% of the time it's that I am frustrated at life, myself or some doo-dad that won't do what it's supposed to/I want it to do. People sometimes piss me off with their stupidity but that's usually other "drivers." Most times, if no one is endangered, I just point and laugh at them.
I have never and would never think to grab a gun, knife, club and attack anyone. I HAVE broken offending objects (https://youtu.be/N9wsjroVlu8) and, before Prozac, punched the occasional wall, door, or broken a toe kicking a HEAVY 55 gal oil drum. :facepalm: :rofl: :old:
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Did the media get this wrong? If so -- mistake, or "spin"?
https://nypost.com/2018/02/17/school-shooters-brother-committed-to-mental-facility/
The shooter's younger brother has been admitted to a mental health facility under Florida's Baker Act. This allows someone to be involunraily admitted for observation and evaluation. The article uses the term "committed," which would seem to be the legal trigger for making him a prohibited person. However, it has always been my understanding that admission for evaluation, such as under the Baker Act, is not "involuntarily committed" under the law as it pertains to disqualifying a person from firearms possession.
Would any of the resident legal eagles kindly chime in and clarify how this works?
Reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_Mental_Health_Act
http://www.dcf.state.fl.us/programs/samh/mentalhealth/laws/BakerActManual.pdf
It seems to me that what's happening is what the law actually refers to as an "involuntary examination." I don't think that's a, involuntary committment under the law (although it may lead to one).
Upon court order, a person can be held for evaluation and observation to determine if a more lengthy order is warranted. I don't do this kind of work, but my limited knowledge is that the term "commitment" refers to the lengthy stay, the short stay is just called an evaluation.
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^^^Many people get around the involuntary commitment and subsequent legal issues by agreeing to voluntary treatment. This is often used as a bargaining chip by the mental health facilities.
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The SRO at my town's grammar school for a number of years was an older officer who must have weighed close to 300 pounds. When he wasn't being the SRO (and, yes, the D.A.R.E. officer) he was the department's photographer. He might have had some specialized firearms/tactical training, but I very much doubt it.
Breaching specialist. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fjEViOF4JE)
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Hey, Hawkmoon. It may be a commie rag, but I thought you might want to see someone else's mass shooting spread-sheet.
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/mass-shootings-mother-jones-full-data/
This article is about racist comments, etc, made by the Florida shooter.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/16/us/exclusive-school-shooter-instagram-group/index.html
Obviously, if CNN had found any pro-Trump comments from the guy, they would have focused on those for the next 100 years. Guess they didn't find any. Poor guys.
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Hey, Hawkmoon. It may be a commie rag, but I thought you might want to see someone else's mass shooting spread-sheet.
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/mass-shootings-mother-jones-full-data/
This article is about racist comments, etc, made by the Florida shooter.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/16/us/exclusive-school-shooter-instagram-group/index.html
Obviously, if CNN had found any pro-Trump comments from the guy, they would have focused on those for the next 100 years. Guess they didn't find any. Poor guys.
The ROF connection to the shooter happens to be 4chan trolling the media again.
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I’m not a lawyer. This is how the ATF defines “comitted.”
...that the statutory term “committed to a mental institution” applies to involuntary inpatient or outpatient treatment.
From here: https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/docs/agorder0001pdf/download
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The ROF connection to the shooter happens to be 4chan trolling the media again.
The article I linked to wasn't about ROF.
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Hey, Hawkmoon. It may be a commie rag, but I thought you might want to see someone else's mass shooting spread-sheet.
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/mass-shootings-mother-jones-full-data/
Thanks. There are a few on theirs that I don't have. I'll research them and see if they meet the criteria to be included.
How would you all define "mass shooting"? For example, I don't include any that are family/domestic disputes. If the Hatfields wipe out a bunch of McCoys, that's a feud, not a "mass shooting" as the term is generally taken to mean: a shooter (or shooters) targeting random victims who are killed or wounded because they happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, not because they have any direct relationship to the shooter. I also don't include gang shootouts.
Here's an article http://time.com/3432950/fbi-mass-shooting-report-misleading/ that says mass shootings have NOT been increasing.
But at least two prominent criminologists have taken issue with the FBI report’s findings. James Alan Fox, a Northeastern University criminal justice professor, and Grant Duwe, a director of research for the Minnesota Department of Corrections and author of a book on the history of mass murder in the U.S., are both known for being mass shooting contrarians. And both think the FBI numbers are misleading.
“These events are exceptionally rare and not necessarily on the increase,” Fox says.
One of the problems, they say, lies with the definition of “active shooter” and “mass shooter.” The FBI report analyzed “active shooter” incidents generally, a term defined by the federal government as an individual actively engaged in killing or attempting to kill others in a confined and populated area. (The FBI report modified that definition a bit to include multiple individuals as well as events in locations not considered “confined.”)
The problem in conflating the two terms, Fox argues, is that an active shooter doesn’t necessarily have to kill anyone. And in fact, only 64 incidents involving “active shooters” met the federal government’s definition of a “mass killing,” in which three or more people were murdered in a single incident. In 31 incidents identified by the FBI report, no one was killed.
“A majority of active shooters are not mass shooters,” Fox says. “A majority kill fewer than three.”
If active shooters are removed from the equation, Fox says, mass shootings in fact have not been rising over the last few decades, and both the number of incidents and the number of victims has remained relatively steady since the 1970s.
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I’m not a lawyer. This is how the ATF defines “comitted.”
From here: https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/docs/agorder0001pdf/download
Correct. And the shooter's brother was not "committed" for treatment, he was involuntarily admitted for evaluation. Don't know if was intentional or an honest misunderstanding, but the media's report that the younger brother was just "committed" was not correct.
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Hey, Hawkmoon. It may be a commie rag, but I thought you might want to see someone else's mass shooting spread-sheet.
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/mass-shootings-mother-jones-full-data/
Right off the top, the second one on their list is a question mark for my list. It was apparently a domestic dispute. Four people were killed, but should it be classified as a "mass shooting" and added to statistics that people should be afraid of? It was at a car wash -- at 3:00 a.m. Car washes aren't open for business at 3:00 a.m., so something else was going on. The shooter knew at least one of the victims.
I honestly don't know if I should count this one or not. Four people were killed, so it meets the FBI criteria for a "mass killing." And yet the average innocent person isn't parked behind a car wash in a pickup truck at 3:00 a.m., so the chances of someone else falling prey to a similar incident are astonishingly small.
Should I include it, or not?
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It was at a car wash -- at 3:00 a.m. Car washes aren't open for business at 3:00 a.m.,
The sign out front says open 24 hrs:
https://www.google.com/maps/uv?hl=en&pb=!1s0x88352cb0ddf99b31:0x814544a75e499fab!2m22!2m2!1i80!2i80!3m1!2i20!16m16!1b1!2m2!1m1!1e1!2m2!1m1!1e3!2m2!1m1!1e5!2m2!1m1!1e4!2m2!1m1!1e6!3m1!7e115!4s/maps/place/Ed%25E2%2580%2599s%2BCar%2BWash%2Bin%2BMelcroft,%2BPa/@40.0517957,-79.3891016,3a,75y,340.04h,90t/data%3D*213m4*211e1*213m2*211sJJEPnKJB5NLLDIAcBZ4Arw*212e0*214m2*213m1*211s0x88352cb0ddf99b31:0x814544a75e499fab!5sEd%E2%80%99s+Car+Wash+in+Melcroft,+Pa+-+Google+Search&imagekey=!1e2!2sJJEPnKJB5NLLDIAcBZ4Arw&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwio7NDM86_ZAhVBjK0KHXJ3B-UQpx8IigEwCg (https://www.google.com/maps/uv?hl=en&pb=!1s0x88352cb0ddf99b31:0x814544a75e499fab!2m22!2m2!1i80!2i80!3m1!2i20!16m16!1b1!2m2!1m1!1e1!2m2!1m1!1e3!2m2!1m1!1e5!2m2!1m1!1e4!2m2!1m1!1e6!3m1!7e115!4s/maps/place/Ed%25E2%2580%2599s%2BCar%2BWash%2Bin%2BMelcroft,%2BPa/@40.0517957,-79.3891016,3a,75y,340.04h,90t/data%3D*213m4*211e1*213m2*211sJJEPnKJB5NLLDIAcBZ4Arw*212e0*214m2*213m1*211s0x88352cb0ddf99b31:0x814544a75e499fab!5sEd%E2%80%99s+Car+Wash+in+Melcroft,+Pa+-+Google+Search&imagekey=!1e2!2sJJEPnKJB5NLLDIAcBZ4Arw&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwio7NDM86_ZAhVBjK0KHXJ3B-UQpx8IigEwCg)
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The sign out front says open 24 hrs:
In that it's a self-serve, coin-operated type car wash, yes it's "open" 24 hours. But I doubt they have an attendant there at 3:00 a.m.
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Interview with the family that the shooter was staying with. I really feel for them -- all they did was try to help a kid they thought was in need, and I'm sure they're going to be having a massive guilt trip for a long time. Once again, no good deed shall go unpunished.
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/parkland/florida-school-shooting/fl-school-shooting-family-helped-nikolas-cruz-20180217-story.html
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^^^I wonder when the first lawsuit against them will be filed.
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^^^I wonder when the first lawsuit against them will be filed.
Tuesday morning, tomorrow is a federal holiday. =|
bob
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Tuesday morning, tomorrow is a federal holiday. =|
bob
If that ain't the sad and sorry truth...
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I thought we had a thread around here just for outrageous lies about the Florida Massacre, but I can't find it. So here:
https://www.dailywire.com/news/27394/fake-news-cnns-chris-cuomo-pushes-false-story-ben-shapiro
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I thought we had a thread around here just for outrageous lies about the Florida Massacre, but I can't find it. So here:
https://www.dailywire.com/news/27394/fake-news-cnns-chris-cuomo-pushes-false-story-ben-shapiro
Currently right next to this one. :P :laugh:
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=56759.0
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Congress should pass a bill containing all the stuff the anti-gun-nuts have been calling for that’s already law and call it a victory.
https://ricochet.com/497158/trump-bump-stock-ban-good-bad-or-meh/
(quoted passage from comment section)
:rofl:
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I had a question pop into my reptilian brain last night while watching the news. It showed some really nice busses getting ready to take the kids from the FL school to the capitol. I thought to my self, where did the money come from on the spur of the moment? Nice buses, overnight in Tallahassee. Probably not from the kids or the parents. I just wonder if following the money would end up back at Bloomberg or one of his groups. My wife and I think so.
Maybe somebody should try to follow this money and see just who is behind this push, as if we don't already know.
Just a random thought from last night.
bob
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I had a question pop into my reptilian brain last night while watching the news. It showed some really nice busses getting ready to take the kids from the FL school to the capitol. I thought to my self, where did the money come from on the spur of the moment? Nice buses, overnight in Tallahassee. Probably not from the kids or the parents. I just wonder if following the money would end up back at Bloomberg or one of his groups. My wife and I think so.
Maybe somebody should try to follow this money and see just who is behind this push, as if we don't already know.
Just a random thought from last night.
bob
I saw some FL state rep had to fire one of his employees for suggesting some of the "kids" are shills. I'm pretty sure his statement was accurate. Which didn't change his being run over by a bus. We can't be interjecting truth and facts when we need to be emotional.
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I saw some FL state rep had to fire one of his employees for suggesting some of the "kids" are shills. I'm pretty sure his statement was accurate. Which didn't change his being run over by a bus. We can't be interjecting truth and facts when we need to be emotional.
FWIW i have not yet seen anything beyond unsubstantiated comments that David Hogg was not a student at the high school in question. Obviously that may change. Regardless, the children of that school--all of them--are being ruthlessly exploited by the Blue Church. Not all of them unwillingly.
My two cents.
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Some good news: https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/another-ohio-school-board-votes-incorporate-armed-trained-staff-members-safety-plan (https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/another-ohio-school-board-votes-incorporate-armed-trained-staff-members-safety-plan)
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I had a question pop into my reptilian brain last night while watching the news. It showed some really nice busses getting ready to take the kids from the FL school to the capitol. I thought to my self, where did the money come from on the spur of the moment? Nice buses, overnight in Tallahassee. Probably not from the kids or the parents. I just wonder if following the money would end up back at Bloomberg or one of his groups. My wife and I think so.
Maybe somebody should try to follow this money and see just who is behind this push, as if we don't already know.
Just a random thought from last night.
bob
Not exactly a short trip either. I know that the Million Mom March has it's hand in it.
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http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/florida-students-began-with-optimism-then-they-spoke-to-lawmakers/ar-BBJqsAY?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=ientp
[quote}“We can’t stop crazies,” she told the group.
Afterward, Amanda De La Cruz, 16, looked distraught. “I want the ban on semiautomatic weapons,” she said. “I don’t care about the crazies.”[/quote]
This pretty much explains their thinking. They don't actually care about coming up with working solutions. They just want to ban things.
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Any chance of a ban working starts with 100% border security. Let that sink in with them for a while.
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I had a question pop into my reptilian brain last night while watching the news. It showed some really nice busses getting ready to take the kids from the FL school to the capitol. I thought to my self, where did the money come from on the spur of the moment? Nice buses, overnight in Tallahassee. Probably not from the kids or the parents. I just wonder if following the money would end up back at Bloomberg or one of his groups. My wife and I think so.
Maybe somebody should try to follow this money and see just who is behind this push, as if we don't already know.
Just a random thought from last night.
Bloomberg + Soros
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So it appears an armed Sheriff's Deputy was on site, but did not actively seek the shooter. An Internal Affairs investigation was started and he has resigned his position.
At this point, with no further info, I am hesitant to be "infuriated" as others seem to be. Perhaps the deputy was completely in the wrong. Perhaps he was trying to figure out what was going on. Perhaps it was standard procedure, or he was ordered, to take a position and wait. Perhaps he's being made a scapegoat (I am less and less impressed with the Broward Sheriff). More info needed.
https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2018/02/22/unbelievable-broward-county-sheriffs-latest-confession-sets-blood-boiling-video/
Edit: more recent info may indicate the deputy screwed the pooch. At the building, knew there was an active shooter, and according to the Sheriff, SOP is to engage the shooter.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/22/cop-assigned-to-florida-school-never-went-in-amid-shooting-sheriff-says.html
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So it appears an armed Sheriff's Deputy was on site, but did not actively seek the shooter. An Internal Affairs investigation was started and he has resigned his position.
At this point, with no further info, I am hesitant to be "infuriated" as others seem to be. Perhaps the deputy was completely in the wrong. Perhaps he was trying to figure out what was going on. Perhaps it was standard procedure, or he was ordered, to take a position and wait. Perhaps he's being made a scapegoat (I am less and less impressed with the Broward Sheriff). More info needed.
https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2018/02/22/unbelievable-broward-county-sheriffs-latest-confession-sets-blood-boiling-video/
Edit: more recent info may indicate the deputy screwed the pooch. At the building, knew there was an active shooter, and according to the Sheriff, SOP is to engage the shooter.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/22/cop-assigned-to-florida-school-never-went-in-amid-shooting-sheriff-says.html
I'm too weary to be infuriated. I'm not even amazed. I'll withhold my opinion as to what kind of officers generally apply for school resource officer duty but let's just say it's not the same guys who try out for the SWAT team.
https://www.leoaffairs.com/deputy-sro-school-shooting-not-fire-weapon-actions-scrutinized-sros-given-rifles/
He also said BSO was reviewing whether the first officers on the scene rushed into the school, as they are trained to do when an active shooter is on the rampage. So far, police have not determined which officers from which agencies were first to enter Building 12, the scene of the violence. Israel did say BSO deputies “pulled people out, saved lives.”
Jeff Bell, the president of the Broward Sheriff’s Office Deputies Association, said the union was satisfied with the response time of the cops who rushed to the scene. “Our guys could still hear the final barrage of gunfire as they arrived,” Bell said.
The shooter, however, slipped away before cops could find him in the chaos.
“Forty-five acres, just over 3,000 students and you’re looking for one. Certainly makes it more difficult,” Bell said.
BS the responding cops saved lives. The SRO who should have responded didn't. When the cavalry arrived, the shooter ditched his weapon and blended in with the crowd. The responding cops did what they were supposed to do, but the honest truth is that, as usual, by the time they arrived and made entry the game was over. Any lives they saved were by performing first aid, not by taking on (or taking out) the shooter. But it makes a great sound bite to tell the media that the responding officers "saved lives."
[Edit to add] Furthermore, it appears that it wasn't Sheriff Israel's deputies who were the first to go in and the first to start saving lives -- it was Coral Springs officers.
In 2014, Peterson [the SRO deputy] was named School Resource Officer of the Year in Parkland, WSVN reported. The district stated "Deputy Peterson has proven to be reliable in handling issues with tact and judgment.”
Translation: He was part of the "Broward County Solution" to high numbers of students of color being suspended and expelled. It would appear that Deputy Peterson bought into the Broward County Solution and helped rig the statistics by handling problem students with "tact and judgment" rather than by making arrests. Good job, Broward County.
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When seconds count the police are
minutes away cowering in fear.
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It's spreading:
https://www.redstate.com/brandon_morse/2018/02/23/hundreds-teachers-signed-gun-training-country/
Butler County Sheriff Richard Jones offered the training to teachers after the Parkland school shooting which left 17 dead, and the response was far greater than he had originally anticipated, with hundreds signing up within hours.
...Fox Business reports that 225 districts in a dozen states have teachers partaking in firearms training.
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Perhaps (just perhaps) reports of the demise of sanity were a bit premature.
I hope.
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The Wall Street Journal had a long-ish article about the warning tip that the FBI received -- and fumbled. They still haven't said who called, but this article refers to the caller as a "she," and includes references that make it clear it was not the woman of the household where he was living. I'd say it has to be the late mother's sister. Can't think of anyone else who would know the kid and have that kind of inside dope on him, but I'm sure the sisters talked.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/fbi-tip-line-caller-said-nikolas-cruz-is-going-to-explode-1519415442
So many screwups, and so many innocent lives lost as a result. It's mind boggling.
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It is not mind boggling; it is business as usual for a government entity.
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CNN is now reporting that 4 deputies were outside the school during the shooting who didn't go in.
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I am beginning to wonder if firearms ownership is going to end up being treated and looked upon as smoking is now: still legal, but with lots of restrictions, seen as a public and personal health risk, and those who still do it are seen as people in need of help to kick their habit.
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CNN is now reporting that 4 deputies were outside the school during the shooting who didn't go in.
So... will any of these be fired?
Silly question, I know! :mad:
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I am beginning to wonder if firearms ownership is going to end up being treated and looked upon as smoking is now: still legal, but with lots of restrictions, seen as a public and personal health risk, and those who still do it are seen as people in need of help to kick their habit.
People that own, or want to own, firearms will be considered to have a mental illness and people with a mental illness can't own firearms.
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I am beginning to wonder if firearms ownership is going to end up being treated and looked upon as smoking is now: still legal, but with lots of restrictions, seen as a public and personal health risk, and those who still do it are seen as people in need of help to kick their habit.
Looked on and treated that way by whom? The media?
Is there some data that says the number of gun owners is shrinking?
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Looked on and treated that way by whom? The media?
Is there some data that says the number of gun owners is shrinking?
The media would have you believe it's shrinking.
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After hearing a radio report that TV media stated the Florida school shooter was armed with one rifle, and then 5 rifles, and then 10 assault rifles, I typed in "Florida shooting discrepancies" in Google search...
Interesting coincidence that both Sandy Hook and Parkland schools had active shooter drills scheduled on the same day they were allegedly shot up.
Interesting that the media immediately blacked out eye-witness reports of multiple shooters, some in full body armor.
I even learned about "crisis actors", the same people showing up as victims in multiple mass shootings.
Odd that there are so many discrepancies in recent mass shootings. And I don't even wear a tinfoil hat.
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The media would have you believe it's shrinking.
That is what has me concerned. How many gun owners see that and think they are in a small minority. They might forget that the media has an approval rating as low or lower than Congress.
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Here is my question, who makes a video during/right after an active shooter situation?
http://www.latimes.com/visuals/video/95939817-132.html (http://www.latimes.com/visuals/video/95939817-132.html)
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https://theralphretort.com/marchforourlives-media-darling-caught-bullying-nikolas-cruz-on-twitter-back-in-october-2017-2025018/
Looks like one of the main kids speaking wasn't quite so nice.
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Here is my question, who makes a video during/right after an active shooter situation?
http://www.latimes.com/visuals/video/95939817-132.html (http://www.latimes.com/visuals/video/95939817-132.html)
Have you met any people recently? Everyone grabs a cell camera record instead of actually doing something productive.
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthefederalist.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2018%2F02%2Fsheriff.jpeg&hash=f3af77ff00201c130add77a766cdc55e8c785d06)
From 2016: (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/fl-sheriff-political-hires-20160827-story.html)
Israel's opponents say he's built a publicly funded political machine, paying back supporters with jobs and using them to keep him in office. They say the money could be better spent, particularly after the sheriff complained about not having enough funding to secure the county courthouse, where a murder suspect recently escaped.
Israel said he built the outreach wing from nearly nothing, aiming to foster "a love affair with the community." He said it would engender trust with the community that was lacking under the tenure of predecessor Al Lamberti. He defending the tapping of people he knew, some from the campaign trail, into outreach and other roles.
"What have I done differently than Don Shula or Abraham Lincoln or Martin Luther King, Ghandi?" asked Israel. "Men and women who assume leadership roles surround themselves with people who are loyal, who they can depend on and who they appreciate their skill set."
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From 2016: (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/fl-sheriff-political-hires-20160827-story.html)
Israel's opponents say he's built a publicly funded political machine, paying back supporters with jobs and using them to keep him in office. They say the money could be better spent, particularly after the sheriff complained about not having enough funding to secure the county courthouse, where a murder suspect recently escaped.
Israel said he built the outreach wing from nearly nothing, aiming to foster "a love affair with the community." He said it would engender trust with the community that was lacking under the tenure of predecessor Al Lamberti. He defending the tapping of people he knew, some from the campaign trail, into outreach and other roles.
"What have I done differently than Don Shula or Abraham Lincoln or Martin Luther King, Ghandi?" asked Israel. "Men and women who assume leadership roles surround themselves with people who are loyal, who they can depend on and who they appreciate their skill set."
This is more of our institutional/moral/societal rot.
In the 90s, we had people saying "I take full responsibility" and then clearly not taking responsibility for horrific government actions. (See: Waco, Janet Reno)
We've now progressed to the point where "leaders" won't even mouth platitudes about "taking responsibility".
The quote most appropriate is "Hypocrisy is the tribute vice pays to virtue."
As bad as hypocrites are, they at least know and recognize what is right. (For example, a leader OUGHT to take responsibility for what is done by his organization.)
We're now to the point where they don't even believe in what is right (AND failing to do it.)
Honestly, I'd prefer the hypocrite. (I'd prefer one who actually does what is right, but at least recognizing what is right is a step up from not.)
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthefederalist.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2018%2F02%2Fsheriff.jpeg&hash=f3af77ff00201c130add77a766cdc55e8c785d06)
From 2016: (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/fl-sheriff-political-hires-20160827-story.html)
Lamborghini ?!?!!!? He's a veritable legend in his own mind ... ... ... ...
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Lamborghini ?!?!!!? He's a veritable legend in his own mind ... ... ... ...
Asset forfeiture FTW?
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http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/broward/article202486304.html
Well this is interesting! Looks like he might of have only used 10 round mags because because larger ones wouldn't fit in his bag, which also doesn't really make much sense to me.
Also apparently he was having issues with the rifle either jamming or problems reloading. Probably never cleaned it or perhaps he was having issues manipulating the 10 round mags; I've got a 10 round mag that's parkerized that doesn't like to extract well in one of my builds
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https://crimeresearch.org/2018/02/good-day-la-teachers-armed/
John Lott on an LA news show. You probably already know this stuff, but it was good hear it.
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http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/broward/article202486304.html
Well this is interesting! Looks like he might of have only used 10 round mags because because larger ones wouldn't fit in his bag, which also doesn't really make much sense to me.
Also apparently he was having issues with the rifle either jamming or problems reloading. Probably never cleaned it or perhaps he was having issues manipulating the 10 round mags; I've got a 10 round mag that's parkerized that doesn't like to extract well in one of my builds
That is interesting. Usually 20 round mags are not significantly bigger than the smaller mags.
One of the lessons I had to learn when I first got an AR was to bypass the cheap mags at the gun show and get mil-spec magazines. My first AR rifle was an Armalite that wasn't the best, but the cheap magazines I bought (along with some cheap ammo) make it seem like an unreliable POS. I also had to learn some lessons about how to clean and lube it or at least which parts to keep clean and lubed. Cheap polymer mags from Magpul and others that work well has changed the AR magazine market a lot.
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https://crimeresearch.org/2018/02/good-day-la-teachers-armed/
John Lott on an LA news show. You probably already know this stuff, but it was good hear it.
Still rockin' the disheveled wonk look, I see.
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As I think I've said before, active shooter doctrine in my county is that the first three units on the scene go in together. Never one.
I talked to some cops about this since I posted it, and while the official policy has not changed, they've added a little nuance. A team of three is the maximum you wait for (i.e., if there are three guys on site you had better be in the school), but whether you wait for even one other guy depends on the situation. If backup is close, you can wait for a team of as many as three, but if there is any significant wait for backup you go in with whatever you have even if it is just you. That's an improvement, I think.
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Update: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/broward/article204226584.html
The school resource officer- the one who cowardly hid outside while children were being murdered and then later claimed that he thought the shots were coming from outside- that guy, was on the radio the day of the shooting reporting the shots were coming from inside the building and warning all the other responders to stay back 500 feet.
I honestly have no words for how low this mendacious coward is.
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http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/broward/article203903054.html
And two officers who were training nearby showed up uninvited and are being punished.
“This is not their area, this is not their jurisdiction,” said Franklin, who consults with law enforcement agencies on internal affairs investigations. “You don’t want to let those guys loose into something that’s chaotic where they might take inappropriate action. It is prudent to have them stand down unless there is a plan.”
The memo told Gilbert and Schlosser that they acted “without the knowledge or authorization from your chain of command” and created an “officer safety situation due to dispatch not knowing your location or activity.”
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Update: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/broward/article204226584.html
The school resource officer- the one who cowardly hid outside while children were being murdered and then later claimed that he thought the shots were coming from outside- that guy, was on the radio the day of the shooting reporting the shots were coming from inside the building and warning all the other responders to stay back 500 feet.
I honestly have no words for how low this mendacious coward is.
I missed this earlier and caught it off Twitter. Another good example to throw back at people who say you should just call the police.
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On another forum, there are still people defending that worthless pile of excrement.
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Good law enforcement, particularly in a difficult situation, is very high standard. In my experience the sunk cost fallacy of never getting rid of officers who show they aren't up to snuff but have already had gov money spent on training and personal vouching means the percentage whom we can have no faith in rising to the occasion is way higher than it should be. I'd much rather live in the world when we can take it for granted positions we think so heroic they are common Halloween costumes for children ain't going to come with crushing disillusionment.
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Sounds like that Emma Gonzalez just admitted to the fact that they bullied and ostracized the shooter, and doesn't care that they did.
https://www.facebook.com/the.political.muscle/posts/10157277044268327
Sorry that's it's a BookFact link, only way I found it.
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I find it unfortunately normal of our msm that only AP and Fox are reporting that there were calls for the shooter to be Baker Acted in 2016. Still no info on why he wasn't put in a hospital at that point.
Jim
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Sounds like that Emma Gonzalez just admitted to the fact that they bullied and ostracized the shooter, and doesn't care that they did.
https://www.facebook.com/the.political.muscle/posts/10157277044268327
Sorry that's it's a BookFact link, only way I found it.
Maybe with a longer video clip, but it cuts off before she can explain what she means (if she did explain it). Did she go on to say that they ostracized him because he was a total loser? Or did she say they avoided him because he was scary and violent?
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Update
Nikolas Cruz Dodges the Death Penalty, Will Spend the Rest of His Life in Prison Without Parole
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/nikolas-cruz-dodges-the-death-penalty-will-spend-the-rest-of-his-life-in-prison-without-parole/
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^^^His defense lawyers earned every cent of their fee by escaping the death penalty.
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Update
Nikolas Cruz Dodges the Death Penalty, Will Spend the Rest of His Life in Prison Without Parole
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/nikolas-cruz-dodges-the-death-penalty-will-spend-the-rest-of-his-life-in-prison-without-parole/
Too bad they don't take volunteers to kill that worthless piece of crap.
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Father suing the US govt for human rights violations under international law
Joaquin Oliver was one of 17 killed in the 2018 massacre. His father, Manuel Oliver, argues in the lawsuit filed Thursday that the United States was obligated under international law to protect his son against such gun violence.
“Joaquin Oliver was killed as a consequence of the actions and omissions of the United States of America that enabled and facilitated high-risk firearm sales to unsuitable civilian buyers and prevented the adoption of widely accepted measures to protect persons from being injured or killed by guns,” Oliver’s lawsuit said.
Arturo Carrillo, director of the George Washington University Civil and Human Rights Law Clinic, helped file the suit on Oliver’s behalf, saying the United States is not above international human rights laws.
“We’re in an international tribunal that can tell the United States as a nation on the globe bound by international human rights law that it must do more by its people. It must protect their right to live free from gunfire,” Carrillo said.
Parkland Victim's Dad at Center of 'Human Rights Lawsuit' Over Gun Laws
https://bearingarms.com/tomknighton/2023/11/12/human-rights-lawsuit-n77183
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Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
So they can blame your freedoms for their misfortunes,
Using them as an excuse to remake your land into the same sort of stinking mess they fled from.
Yeah, close the border until further notice.