Author Topic: Nuclear Questions  (Read 1245 times)

Nick1911

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Nuclear Questions
« on: January 09, 2007, 04:00:14 PM »
So, I am a computer geek, and by no means a nuclear engineer.  That said, I find nuclear topics very interesting but I have a hypothetical question.

Seeing as U-238 isn't particularly hard to get, (those terrorists at United Nuclear have it) wouldn't it be possible for an individual in the united states to construct a mini-nuclear reactor?

I'm well aware that by it's self U-238 isn't particularly powerful seeing as it's half-life is really long.  (A web site suggests about 0.1 watt's of natural decay per ton)  But, if you had U-238 and bombarded it with neutrons, wouldn't it convert to fissionable Plutonium-239,?  Plutonium-239, hit by neutrons splits, giving off energy.

The only problem is getting a neutron source, right?  Well, the individual can (and has) built a device to generate neutrons - the Fusor.  Even without this device, Beryllium will emit neutrons when hit with Alpha radiation, and alpha radiation sources aren't hard to get either.

So, I think that the chain of thought is sound.  The question remains, would you end up getting past break even?

Thoughts? 

Legality?  (I'm pretty sure the NRC would maim anyone who actually tried this, and for good reason...)

The Rabbi

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Re: Nuclear Questions
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2007, 04:43:49 PM »
1) Dont try this at home.
2) It's pronounced "nyuculur".
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Fly320s

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Re: Nuclear Questions
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2007, 04:58:47 PM »
Sounds simple... on paper.

I think that you will need more specialized equipment, costing more money and using more energy, than you probably have the space or budget to allow.

As for the NRC, several universities have nuke plants.  You can have one too, if you have enough ink in your pen.
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AJ Dual

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Re: Nuclear Questions
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2007, 05:00:28 PM »
Yeah, it would work, but if it were that efficient, Iran would be doing it that way, instead of pulling out the U-235 isotopes via gas centrifuge separation.

I don't know why that is, but one must assume if it were easy or efficient, everybody, the U.S., Russia, China etc. would do it that way.

I'm guessing that it's not practical or possible to channel significant neutron radiation from a Fusor, or the Beryllium/Alpha/Neutron conversion, and get those neutrons into the U238.

I'd further guess that the most efficient way is gas-separation of U235, running a breeder reactor with it, and just letting the statistical mass of all the fissioning atoms build up the P239 supply when you go to reprocess the "spent" fuel.

Then the problem with "breeder" reactors is that they're "touchy". The best way to go is probably a traditional reactor with a moderate breeding capacity, or just use the U235 that you enriched as the primary in a larger less efficient device.

I ain't a nookular scientist neither, but those be my semi-edumacated guesses.
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MechAg94

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Re: Nuclear Questions
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2007, 05:10:52 PM »
Didn't someone come up with a theoretical home reactor design a few years ago?  I thought I read something about that.  Pebble bed or some such name.  Can't remember.
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Re: Nuclear Questions
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2007, 05:21:40 PM »
IIRC, come pebble bed designs were not suitable for a home reactor, but rather for a minimal staff/automated facility that did not come with the risk of the fuel core melting its way out of the containment shell should the coolant flow stop.  I think the Chinese are building 'em as fast as they can, while we in the U.S. squabble over the very idea of building more reactors.

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Nick1911

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Re: Nuclear Questions
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2007, 06:43:50 PM »
Quote
1) Dont try this at home.

Who, me?  grin  Now where'd I put my fusor...

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Sounds simple... on paper.

I think that you will need more specialized equipment, costing more money and using more energy, than you probably have the space or budget to allow.

Probably true.

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Yeah, it would work, but if it were that efficient, Iran would be doing it that way, instead of pulling out the U-235 isotopes via gas centrifuge separation.

I don't know why that is, but one must assume if it were easy or efficient, everybody, the U.S., Russia, China etc. would do it that way.

Basically what I'm proposing is a breeder reactor that uses an external source of neutrons.  I have little doubt that it's far easier/cost effective to just enrich uranium, and that's why it's done.  I'm proposing a more complex system because all the material are avavliable on the open market in the US to the experimenter.

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As for the NRC, several universities have nuke plants.  You can have one too, if you have enough ink in your pen.

Money in wallet is of more concern then ink in pen, but this is probably true as well.

K Frame

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Re: Nuclear Questions
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2007, 05:13:27 AM »
Sure it's possible to make something that will give you fission.

You'll also give yourself a lethal dose of radiation without trying.
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Re: Nuclear Questions
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2007, 05:17:36 AM »
Playing with this stuff.

Hmm say hello to radiation sickness
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Nick1911

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Re: Nuclear Questions
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2007, 05:38:13 AM »
Quote
The zircon encrusted reverstatic vacuum modulators are darned hard to come by. Without those, well, what would be the point? Three magnetic isolation or Faraday sources complicate that geometrically not arithmetically.

Can you explain this further or point me to a link?

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Sure it's possible to make something that will give you fission.

You'll also give yourself a lethal dose of radiation without trying.

That would be my luck, however I don't have intentions to actually do this.  It's more of a "what if" theory.


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Re: Nuclear Questions
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2007, 05:52:15 AM »
Quote
wouldn't it be possible for an individual in the united states to construct a mini-nuclear reactor?
Short answer - no. For reasons why see long answer below.

Based on my experience in the Navy as a nuclear reactor operator I can say:

Assuming you could get permission and unless one is very, very rich building a home reactor wouldn't be feasible IMO.

You need enriched U238 for a reactor which is very hard to get and would be very expensive even if you could. You could use Plutonium also. There are a few other isotopes of uranium and some non uranium isotopes that are fissionable that would work too. The primary requirement though is the the material be fissionable with thermal neutrons. Materials that fission with fast neutrons (like U235) will work but are difficult to control and are generally restricted to use in breeder reactors.

You don't need a neutron source. Enough neutrons are given off by the normal decay process to start the fission reaction going IF there is enough fissile material and it is in the correct geometry. With out a way to absorb and moderate the neutrons the fissile material will go supercritical (this is a bad thing - a really, really bad thing). You use an absorber to control the number of neutrons available in order to control the rate of fission and a moderator to thermalize the neutrons since U238 splits when a thermalized (low energy neutron) hits it.  It is necessary to thermalize the neutrons because a fast neutron just bounces of the uranium atom kind of like a ping pong ball bouncing off of a pool ball - it will not be absorbed and in order for the fission reaction to occur the neutron must be absorbed. NOTE: there are isotopes that will fission when a fast neutron hits them but reactors that use fast neutrons are difficult to control so they are not common.

In order to keep the reaction from going supercritical you need a neutron absorber like hafnium (expensive materials) which is what the reactor control rods are made of. The most common moderator is water which thermalizes neutrons and that in and of itself is what allows a controlled fission reaction to take place. Usually the water is also the medium by which the heat of the core is transferred to what ever medium is used to generate power. In US Naval reactors the hot water goes thru a heat exchanger called a steam generator and that steam drives turbines hooked up to electric generators or to the reduction gears and the shaft. The actual core size for a pressurized water reactor (most common) is about the size of a garbage can though core sizes for can be larger and much, much larger in a boiling water reactor (most common type used for commercial production of electricity).

Add to all of the above the electronics you would need to monitor and control the reactor, the expense of shielding it, the expense of the high quality steel that goes into the piping, all the auxiliary control systems, pumps, containment vessel, the containment building, then the expense of disposing of the waste after 20 years or so and building a home reactor becomes an exercise in wasting money.

On the other hand one might be able to make what is called a snap reactor which uses radioactive materials to somehow make electricity. The Russians used to use those to power their satellites but that is a technology I am not familiar with.
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Gewehr98

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Re: Nuclear Questions
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2007, 01:16:26 PM »
Not just the Russians.

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On the other hand one might be able to make what is called a snap reactor which uses radioactive materials to somehow make electricity. The Russians used to use those to power their satellites but that is a technology I am not familiar with.

Uncle Sam uses them, for both terrestrial and satellite (Remember the outcry over the Cassini launch) power applications.  We call them "RTGs", or Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generators".  I know where several of them are powering seismic arrays in the wilderness of Alaska. No fission, just decay of radioisotopes, and the resulting heat drives a thermocouple to power whatever the RTG is needed for.



You need slow (thermal) neutrons to get things done when it comes to neutron capture and changing isotopes. 

Thorium is another good feed material, and is what the Indians use in their enrichment plants. 

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Re: Nuclear Questions
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2007, 02:15:47 PM »

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In order to keep the reaction from going supercritical you need a neutron absorber like hafnium

If you squish hafnium hard enough do you get holnium?

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Nick1911

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Re: Nuclear Questions
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2007, 03:17:29 PM »
Uncle Sam uses them, for both terrestrial and satellite (Remember the outcry over the Cassini launch) power applications.  We call them "RTGs", or Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generators".  I know where several of them are powering seismic arrays in the wilderness of Alaska. No fission, just decay of radioisotopes, and the resulting heat drives a thermocouple to power whatever the RTG is needed for.

The issue here for the individual is gaining legal access to a material that naturally decays quickly enough to produce a useful amount of power.  I do however, love the concept and always have.  I once looked into constructing a Radioisotope Photoelectric Generator that uses a beta emitter exciting phosphor to create light, which could be converted to electricity by using a solar cell.  Ultimately, the light energy was too weak to be useful for even a demonstration.