Post by: Desertdog on December 21, 2007, 08:01:48 AM
Christmas with a capital "C". Please do watch!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAckfn8yiAQ
Christmas with a Capital “C”
Well I went to the coffee shop
To get myself a mocha
The lady at the counter said, “Happy Holidays”
I said, “Thanks, lady. I am pretty happy, but
there's only one holiday that makes me
feel that way.”
And it's called Christmas...
what more can I say?
It's about the birth
of Christ
and you can't take that away!
You can call it something else
But that's not what it will be
It's called Christmas with
a Capital “C”.
God's got a law
And we pretty much destroyed it
We're gonna get judged
There's no way to avoid it
But Jesus came down
To take the punishment for me
He did it for you, too
So maybe you can see why
It's called Christmas
What more can I say?
It's about the birth of Christ
And you can't take that away
You can it something else
But that's not what it will be
It's called Christmas
with a Capital “C”!
__________________
Post by: drewtam on December 21, 2007, 10:34:15 AM
Post by: Tallpine on December 21, 2007, 10:58:34 AM
Post by: Boomhauer on December 21, 2007, 11:52:52 AM
I could care less about the Christmas season. The only thing it means to me is a couple of days off, large crowds at the stores, and having to hear that damn christmas music all the time.
Post by: Desertdog on December 21, 2007, 01:25:49 PM
Quote
We aren't supposed to say "Merry Christmas", but we get people in who make a point of saying "Merry Christmas" to us b/c they think they are getting away with something for some reason
I say "Merry Christmas and Happy New Year" just because some think it is politically incorrect to do so, not to mention the fact that is what I have been saying all my life, and I wasn't born yesterday.
Post by: drewtam on December 21, 2007, 01:29:28 PM
If I may... Jesus is not the reason for the season, and Christ was never in Christmas.
Post by: Tallpine on December 21, 2007, 02:47:44 PM
Quote
Nollaig Chridheil agus Bliadhna mhath ?r!
(Merry Christmas and Happy New Year)
Winter Solstice this year occurs Dec. 22nd at 1:08 AM EST (6:08 UT)
Me?n Geimhridh (Irish translation: Midwinter) or Grianstad an Gheimhridh (Irish translation: Winter solstice)
The Christmas season is a strange mixture of ancient holidays, festivals, and superstitions passed down to us. Frequently we have little personal knowledge of where many of our holiday traditions started or even why they are done, we do it because it has always been done that way. Or has it?
The Christmas season has been celebrated by people everywhere across Europe and the Middle East, whether Christian or not. The holiday is more pagan than Christian with its association with Nordic divination, Celtic fertility rites, and Roman Mithrais. This was the time of year when Virgin mothers give birth to sacred sons and daughters; Rhiannon to Pryderi, Isis to Horus, Demeter to Persephone; and to gods and heroes such as Oedipus, Heseus, Hercules, Perseus, Jason, Dionysus, Apollo, Mithra, and even Arthur. The stories of many of these gods and heroes possess narratives containing birth, death, and resurrection which predate the story of Jesus. Because of these associations Martin Luther and John Calvin abhorred the season. Did you know that the Yule season (the term Yule is actually Wiccan and was a holiday celebrating the rebirth of the Great God) was nearly banned during the Scottish Reformation of 1649? The conservative protestant beliefs of the time almost made Christmas extinct in Scotland and much of England. The ban was enforced in many locations by the Church of Scotland, but also defied by many people. The Puritans refused to acknowledge it, and even made it illegal in the Massachusetts Bay Colony. Until the first half of the 20th century it looked as if Scots might continue to reject Christmas because of its unacceptable connections to the Church of Rome, plus the habits of heavy feasting which was unacceptable with the ethics of ascetic Presbyterians of the Reformed Scottish Church. Even until the 1960s because of the Churchs strongly held beliefs Christmas Day in Scotland was considered a working day, shops stayed open, life went on as usual. Many who grew up during this time in Scotland, even until the 1970s, did not open presents at Christmas but waited until the day after Hogmanay (New Years Day) for Santas arrival. In some respects you might say that 20th century commercialism saved Christmas in Scotland! Some think the Church of Scotland wasnt so much afraid of the people practicing the old superstitious ways as they were of them adapting the customs of the Roman Church and it was this reason they avoided celebrating Christmas for so long.
The duration of the Yule festival depends upon the account and time period from which one reads. Yule can be either the years shortest day - the winter solstice December 21st or 22nd depending on the year, or the period of time beginning about then and extending though 12th Night or Uphalieday (Feast of the Epiphany) on January 6th. Some in the far north considered it starting on the eve of December 12th, Maunsmass Een, the eve before the feast day of St. Magnus. Yuletide is commonly considered the time beginning December 26th and continuing until 12th Night. Love, family togetherness, and accomplishments from the previous year are celebrated. The name is derived from the sun and in spite of being held at the darkest time of the year, it is also considered a Fire Festival like Beltane and Samhain. As with the other Fire Festivals, massive communal bonfires were lit across the countryside to mark the occasion. The name Yule is derived from the Anglo-Saxon Yula, which means Wheel of the Year.
How did our Christmas end up on the 25th of December? Well that is another story unto itself. Tradition said Mary bore the child Jesus on the twenty-fifth day, but no one could confirm the month. Finally in 320 AD the Roman Catholic Church decided to make it December 25th in an effort to co-opt the Mithraic celebration by the Romans and the Yule of the Celts and Saxons. Before being Christianized as the Mass of Christ (Christmas), there was a festival honoring the God of the Sun known as the Birthday of the Invincible Sun (Dies Natalis Invicti Solis) celebrated on this date in ancient Rome. In 272 AD it was made a public holiday, even consisting of the lightning of sacred bonfires. Under the Julian calendar (before 1752, Britain was a holdout on accepting the Gregorian calendar established in 1582 by Papal decree you guessed it Protestant/Catholic politics again) Yule was celebrated on January 5th. When the calendar was changed many people refused to hold Christmas on the new date of December 25th and in some locations, such as the Shetlands, even up until the Second World War the old customs were maintained and the Auld Yule celebrated on the 5th. Whoever said the Scots were stubborn!
Proto-Celtic Neolithic tribes, Celts and Druids (the word Druid mean wise man of the oak, or One who has knowledge of the oak ) were also known to have held a festival during this time of year calling it Nuadhulig or New All-Heal or new mistletoe. Everyone joined the priests in searching the forest for mistletoe growing on the scared oak tree. It is described that once the mistletoe was found the Druid priest climbed the tree, cut the mistletoe off with a golden knife and wrapped the parasitic plant in a white cloth. At the tree where the mistletoe was found two white bulls were sacrificed, and it is said at one time it was humans who were the sacrifice. The wrapped plant was carried back to the village where a religious ceremony was held followed by feasting, singing and dancing. On the next day the plant was divided up among everyone and taken to their homes to be hung up inside or above doors to ward off evil and to give fairies a shelter from the winter chill. In the Druid calendars, the solstices and equinoxes all occurred at about midpoint in each season. The passage and chamber of Newgrange (Pre-Celtic or possibly Proto-Celtic 3,200 BCE), a tomb in Ireland, is illuminated by the winter solstice sunrise. A shaft of sunlight shines through the roof box over the entrance and penetrates the passage to light up the chamber. The dramatic event lasts for 17 minutes at dawn from the 19th to the 23rd of December. The point of roughness is the term for the winter solstice in Wales which in ancient Welsh mythology, was when Rhiannon gave birth to the sacred son, Pryderi.
The Romans celebrated this season and called it Saturnalia in honor of Saturnus, the Sower. For seven days there was a feast celebrating the fruits of the earth and hope for their renewal. Bacchus, the god of wine, played a major role in this festival. Many of the customs from that time have survived in various forms such as the giving of gifts, decorating a tree with lights, paper party hats, balloons and the blowing of paper party trumpets.
(Merry Christmas and Happy New Year)
Winter Solstice this year occurs Dec. 22nd at 1:08 AM EST (6:08 UT)
Me?n Geimhridh (Irish translation: Midwinter) or Grianstad an Gheimhridh (Irish translation: Winter solstice)
The Christmas season is a strange mixture of ancient holidays, festivals, and superstitions passed down to us. Frequently we have little personal knowledge of where many of our holiday traditions started or even why they are done, we do it because it has always been done that way. Or has it?
The Christmas season has been celebrated by people everywhere across Europe and the Middle East, whether Christian or not. The holiday is more pagan than Christian with its association with Nordic divination, Celtic fertility rites, and Roman Mithrais. This was the time of year when Virgin mothers give birth to sacred sons and daughters; Rhiannon to Pryderi, Isis to Horus, Demeter to Persephone; and to gods and heroes such as Oedipus, Heseus, Hercules, Perseus, Jason, Dionysus, Apollo, Mithra, and even Arthur. The stories of many of these gods and heroes possess narratives containing birth, death, and resurrection which predate the story of Jesus. Because of these associations Martin Luther and John Calvin abhorred the season. Did you know that the Yule season (the term Yule is actually Wiccan and was a holiday celebrating the rebirth of the Great God) was nearly banned during the Scottish Reformation of 1649? The conservative protestant beliefs of the time almost made Christmas extinct in Scotland and much of England. The ban was enforced in many locations by the Church of Scotland, but also defied by many people. The Puritans refused to acknowledge it, and even made it illegal in the Massachusetts Bay Colony. Until the first half of the 20th century it looked as if Scots might continue to reject Christmas because of its unacceptable connections to the Church of Rome, plus the habits of heavy feasting which was unacceptable with the ethics of ascetic Presbyterians of the Reformed Scottish Church. Even until the 1960s because of the Churchs strongly held beliefs Christmas Day in Scotland was considered a working day, shops stayed open, life went on as usual. Many who grew up during this time in Scotland, even until the 1970s, did not open presents at Christmas but waited until the day after Hogmanay (New Years Day) for Santas arrival. In some respects you might say that 20th century commercialism saved Christmas in Scotland! Some think the Church of Scotland wasnt so much afraid of the people practicing the old superstitious ways as they were of them adapting the customs of the Roman Church and it was this reason they avoided celebrating Christmas for so long.
The duration of the Yule festival depends upon the account and time period from which one reads. Yule can be either the years shortest day - the winter solstice December 21st or 22nd depending on the year, or the period of time beginning about then and extending though 12th Night or Uphalieday (Feast of the Epiphany) on January 6th. Some in the far north considered it starting on the eve of December 12th, Maunsmass Een, the eve before the feast day of St. Magnus. Yuletide is commonly considered the time beginning December 26th and continuing until 12th Night. Love, family togetherness, and accomplishments from the previous year are celebrated. The name is derived from the sun and in spite of being held at the darkest time of the year, it is also considered a Fire Festival like Beltane and Samhain. As with the other Fire Festivals, massive communal bonfires were lit across the countryside to mark the occasion. The name Yule is derived from the Anglo-Saxon Yula, which means Wheel of the Year.
How did our Christmas end up on the 25th of December? Well that is another story unto itself. Tradition said Mary bore the child Jesus on the twenty-fifth day, but no one could confirm the month. Finally in 320 AD the Roman Catholic Church decided to make it December 25th in an effort to co-opt the Mithraic celebration by the Romans and the Yule of the Celts and Saxons. Before being Christianized as the Mass of Christ (Christmas), there was a festival honoring the God of the Sun known as the Birthday of the Invincible Sun (Dies Natalis Invicti Solis) celebrated on this date in ancient Rome. In 272 AD it was made a public holiday, even consisting of the lightning of sacred bonfires. Under the Julian calendar (before 1752, Britain was a holdout on accepting the Gregorian calendar established in 1582 by Papal decree you guessed it Protestant/Catholic politics again) Yule was celebrated on January 5th. When the calendar was changed many people refused to hold Christmas on the new date of December 25th and in some locations, such as the Shetlands, even up until the Second World War the old customs were maintained and the Auld Yule celebrated on the 5th. Whoever said the Scots were stubborn!
Proto-Celtic Neolithic tribes, Celts and Druids (the word Druid mean wise man of the oak, or One who has knowledge of the oak ) were also known to have held a festival during this time of year calling it Nuadhulig or New All-Heal or new mistletoe. Everyone joined the priests in searching the forest for mistletoe growing on the scared oak tree. It is described that once the mistletoe was found the Druid priest climbed the tree, cut the mistletoe off with a golden knife and wrapped the parasitic plant in a white cloth. At the tree where the mistletoe was found two white bulls were sacrificed, and it is said at one time it was humans who were the sacrifice. The wrapped plant was carried back to the village where a religious ceremony was held followed by feasting, singing and dancing. On the next day the plant was divided up among everyone and taken to their homes to be hung up inside or above doors to ward off evil and to give fairies a shelter from the winter chill. In the Druid calendars, the solstices and equinoxes all occurred at about midpoint in each season. The passage and chamber of Newgrange (Pre-Celtic or possibly Proto-Celtic 3,200 BCE), a tomb in Ireland, is illuminated by the winter solstice sunrise. A shaft of sunlight shines through the roof box over the entrance and penetrates the passage to light up the chamber. The dramatic event lasts for 17 minutes at dawn from the 19th to the 23rd of December. The point of roughness is the term for the winter solstice in Wales which in ancient Welsh mythology, was when Rhiannon gave birth to the sacred son, Pryderi.
The Romans celebrated this season and called it Saturnalia in honor of Saturnus, the Sower. For seven days there was a feast celebrating the fruits of the earth and hope for their renewal. Bacchus, the god of wine, played a major role in this festival. Many of the customs from that time have survived in various forms such as the giving of gifts, decorating a tree with lights, paper party hats, balloons and the blowing of paper party trumpets.
Post by: Finch on December 21, 2007, 02:53:00 PM
Post by: Ron on December 21, 2007, 03:33:52 PM
Christians right or wrong celebrate Christs birth that day.
That is all.
Post by: K Frame on December 21, 2007, 03:57:50 PM
You're perfectly welcome to respond with a hearty EFF YOU!
Post by: Finch on December 21, 2007, 04:43:00 PM
Don't like the fact that I wished you a Merry Christmas?
You're perfectly welcome to respond with a hearty EFF YOU!
Or I could just say thanks...You're perfectly welcome to respond with a hearty EFF YOU!
People don't get riled up when you wish someone a Merry Christmas, it when you say happy holidays that all the Bill O'Riley sheep start flying off the handle. I could care less if someone wished me a happy Kwanza, Huannakah, Christmas, Eid ul-Adha, or whatever. But when people start crying because stores or individuals use the generic all-inclusive "happy holidays" instead of picking their chosen religious celebration, I find it kind of lame.
Post by: GigaBuist on December 21, 2007, 04:50:56 PM
Why do people get so riled up about a pagan holiday, that was pretty much ignored or banned until after the Civil War?
Ah, yes, the tree -- symbol of fertility.
I don't like the pagan roots of that symbol being displayed during Christmas, but I'm not a dick about it. I just don't put one up in my house. That was a little easier when I was single. This year I compromised... she gets to put some lights on a tree in the living room.
The rubber tree.
Post by: atomd on December 21, 2007, 05:32:10 PM
Quote
Don't like the fact that I wished you a Merry Christmas?
You're perfectly welcome to respond with a hearty EFF YOU!
You're perfectly welcome to respond with a hearty EFF YOU!
I think that should be the standard greeting for every occasion!
Post by: mustanger98 on December 21, 2007, 05:42:38 PM
Quote
Don't like the fact that I wished you a Merry Christmas?
You're perfectly welcome to respond with a hearty EFF YOU!
You're perfectly welcome to respond with a hearty EFF YOU!
I think that should be the standard greeting for every occasion!
What should be? Merry Christmas? or EFF YOU!?
Seriously now, if somebody wishes me a Merry Christmas, I generally say "you too". But, I don't personally do Christmas and haven't put up a tree in a lot of years...
Ya'll realize what a fire hazzard it is? I recall a test they did on the Atlanta news about 15 years ago... they took a plain tree, a tree treated with fake snow, and a third tree treated with fire retardent fake snow... anyhow, they set fire to each one and timed it. Slowest to burn was the one treated with fake snow. The fastest to burn was the one treated with the fire retardent stuff.
Post by: RevDisk on December 21, 2007, 07:12:26 PM
Why do people get so riled up about a pagan holiday, that was pretty much ignored or banned until after the Civil War?
Ah, yes, the tree -- symbol of fertility.
I don't like the pagan roots of that symbol being displayed during Christmas, but I'm not a dick about it. I just don't put one up in my house. That was a little easier when I was single. This year I compromised... she gets to put some lights on a tree in the living room.
The rubber tree.
Fair enough. I won't be rude about you weirdos corrupting our holiday and you don't have to diss our symbolism.
I say 'happy holidays' or 'merry christmas' more or less interchangably. Even though Yule is my thing, I don't care that much to start a "War on Yule" campaign to combat the hijacking of our holiday schedule, or whatnot. To each their own, and as long as folks have decent intentions about things and don't get too militant, a style of seasonal greeting makes no difference to me.
Post by: Perd Hapley on December 21, 2007, 07:28:54 PM
What's so pagan about it?
Post by: K Frame on December 21, 2007, 07:59:33 PM
Not the evergreen it isn't.
In Nordo-Germanic mythology the evergreen was worshiped, and even brought into homes, because it was seen as a home for the various Gods when everything else died in the winter.
To say that Christmas is a "pagan holiday" is bullcrap.
It may have its roots in pagan celebrations, but the concept of Christmas as we celebrate it certainly was not a pagan concept.
Post by: Perd Hapley on December 22, 2007, 04:23:21 AM
To say that Christmas is a "pagan holiday" is bullcrap. It may have its roots in pagan celebrations, but the concept of Christmas as we celebrate it certainly was not a pagan concept.
Right. Just like Halloween is a celebration of candy and costumes and scary stuff, with no pagan significance, except for a small minority.
Roots in pagan celebrations? Not really. Christmas may be somewhat influenced by pagan celebrations, but that's not nearly the same. Even the major "pagan" points of similarity (the winter solstice and the tree) were not necessarily pagan in origin. We don't really know why that time of year was chosen, or why trees came to be used in Christmas celebrations.
Post by: Harold Tuttle on December 22, 2007, 05:51:52 AM
The Battle for Christmas
by Stephen Nissenbaum
http://www.amazon.com/Battle-Christmas-Stephen-Nissenbaum/dp/0679740384
This scholarly analysis of our modern celebration of Christmas pulls together a thoroughly convincing case for the widely accepted notion that it is a 19th-century creation, indeed a deliberate reformation and taming of a holiday with wilder pagan origins. Christmas was set at December 25 in the fourth century, not for any biblical link with Christ's birth, but because the church hoped to annex and Christianize the existing midwinter pagan feast. This latter was based on the seasonal agricultural plenty, with the year's food supply newly in store, and nothing to do in the fields. It was a time of drinking and debauchery from the Roman Saturnalia to the English Mummers. The Victorians hijacked the holiday, and Victorian writers helped turn it into a feast of safe domesticity and a cacophonous chime of retail cash registers.
From Publishers Weekly
Christmas in America hasn't always been the benevolent, family-centered holiday we idealize. The Puritans of the Massachusetts Bay Colony so feared the day's association with pagan winter solstice revels, replete with public drunkenness, licentiousness and violence, that they banned Christmas celebrations. In this ever-surprising work, Nissenbaum (Sex, Diet, and Debility in Jacksonian America), a professor of history at the University of Massachusetts, conducts a vivid historical tour of the holiday's social evolution. Nissenbaum maintains that not until the 1820s in New York City, among the mercantile Episcopalian Knickerbockers, was Christmas as we know it celebrated. Before Washington Irving and Clement Clarke Moore ("A Visit from St. Nicholas") popularized the genteel version, he explains, the holiday was more of a raucous festival and included demands for tribute from the wealthy by roaming bands of lower-class extortionists. Peppering his insights with analysis of period literature, art and journalism, Nissenbaum constructs his theory. Taming Christmas, he contends, was a way to contain the chaos of social dislocation in a developing consumer-capitalist culture. Later, under the influence of Unitarian writers, the Christmas season became a living object lesson in familial stability and charity, centering on the ideals of bourgeois childhood. From colonial New England, through 18th- and 19th-century New York's and Philadelphia's urban Yuletide contributions, to Christmas traditions in the antebellum South, Nissenbaum's excursion is fascinating, and will startle even those who thought they knew all there was to know about Christmas.
Post by: Desertdog on December 22, 2007, 06:18:35 AM
Post by: grislyatoms on December 22, 2007, 03:18:20 PM
Quote
People don't get riled up when you wish someone a Merry Christmas, it when you say happy holidays that all the Bill O'Riley sheep start flying off the handle. I could care less if someone wished me a happy Kwanza, Huannakah, Christmas, Eid ul-Adha, or whatever. But when people start crying because stores or individuals use the generic all-inclusive "happy holidays" instead of picking their chosen religious celebration, I find it kind of lame.
I do as well. I use "Happy Holidays" because it IS generic and all-inclusive. I find it quite pretentious to wish someone a "Merry Christmas" when I don't know their beliefs. Not that I give a rip what they celebrate anyway, but the "Happy Holidays" part at least is sincere.
I told the checker at the grocery store just last night "Happy Holidays" and he responded with "No, Merry Christmas." I found that even more pretentious and irritating. He wasn't wishing me a "Merry Christmas", he was making a personal statement about himself. Good for him.
Again, as if I care...Post by: Desertdog on December 22, 2007, 03:57:18 PM
Quote
I do as well. I use "Happy Holidays" because it IS generic and all-inclusive.
Which holiday are you talking about when you say "Happy Holidays"? New Years, Martin Luther King Day, Easter, 4th of July, Armistice Day, Labor Day, Thanksgiving, Christmas, Ramadan, Hanukkah, Yon Kippur?
When I say "Merry Christmas" I am talking about December 25th. When I say "Happy New Year" I am actully wishing them to be happy for the upcoming year.
To me and many other people I know, "Happy Holidays" is not generic, it is PC talk.
Post by: grislyatoms on December 22, 2007, 04:35:35 PM
Quote
To me and many other people I know, "Happy Holidays" is not generic, it is PC talk.
How is it not generic, and how is it PC? If I wish someone "Happy Holidays" I am expressing my desire that whatever holiday they choose to celebrate is happy. I don't give a fart what particular holiday they celebrate, but I do hope it's enjoyable.
It's also lot easier than saying "Happy RamadanChanukahChristmasYuleSolsticeKwanzaaBuddha's Birthday" or "Happy<insert holiday of your choice>".
By the way, Merry Christmas.
Post by: onions! on December 22, 2007, 05:10:41 PM
I enjoy telling some of my co-workers that I'm actually Christ reborn.
Yep,I'm going to hell.
Post by: gunsmith on December 22, 2007, 05:21:26 PM
Christmas being pagan and hating Christmas music.
Now that I'm an old right wing Christian anarchist I love saying merry Christmas especially if it makes young depressed liberals scream in agony.
American Christmas music is really great, we have much more humor in our songs (grandma got run over by a reindeer etc) Then for instance, the Irish.
I spent 3 Christmas's in Ireland and their Christmas music really stank!
Plus they do not watch "Its A Wonderful Life" either....the infidels!
Post by: Tallpine on December 22, 2007, 06:14:07 PM
Quote
I spent 3 Christmas's in Ireland and their Christmas music really stank!
Uill, you just have to have an ear for harp and bagpipe
Post by: Desertdog on December 22, 2007, 06:17:59 PM
Quote
By the way, Merry Christmas.
Merry Christmas ans Happy New Year to all.
Post by: mustanger98 on December 22, 2007, 06:54:22 PM
When I was a depressed angst ridden teen age punk rock lefty anarchist, I used to go on and on about
Christmas being pagan and hating Christmas music.
Now that I'm an old right wing Christian anarchist I love saying merry Christmas especially if it makes young depressed liberals scream in agony.
American Christmas music is really great, we have much more humor in our songs (grandma got run over by a reindeer etc) Then for instance, the Irish.
I spent 3 Christmas's in Ireland and their Christmas music really stank!
Plus they do not watch "Its A Wonderful Life" either....the infidels!
Christmas being pagan and hating Christmas music.
Now that I'm an old right wing Christian anarchist I love saying merry Christmas especially if it makes young depressed liberals scream in agony.
American Christmas music is really great, we have much more humor in our songs (grandma got run over by a reindeer etc) Then for instance, the Irish.
I spent 3 Christmas's in Ireland and their Christmas music really stank!
Plus they do not watch "Its A Wonderful Life" either....the infidels!
When I was a young un-depressed Christian, I told anyone who'd listen about it being pagan. Now, I respond to "Merry Christmas" with "you too".
Watch it there... I may be an American first, but I'm at least partially of Irish ancestry. I may be a redneck, but "Grandma Got Run Over..." and the "Redneck 12 Days..." don't cut it for me. "The Second Week of Deer Camp" is much funnier.
"It's A Wonderful Life" isn't a Christmas movie... it's just that they show it at Christmas.
Post by: Perd Hapley on December 22, 2007, 07:59:57 PM
Post by: gunsmith on December 22, 2007, 11:19:15 PM
Quote
Uill, you just have to have an ear for harp and bagpipe
Ah, IF ONLY THEY WOULD PLAY IRISH TRAD!!
Hardly anyone over there listens to trad, it's all generic stuff striving so hard to be inoffensive.
If you visit Ireland in December you'll hear "Driving Home For Christmas"
a billion times a day...check it out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THcbQyFtCqg
Post by: gunsmith on December 23, 2007, 12:00:17 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltiY-BqvOIU&feature=related
Post by: Bigjake on December 23, 2007, 04:34:58 AM
Quote
Now that I'm an old right wing Christian anarchist I love saying merry Christmas especially if it makes young depressed liberals scream in agony.
Isn't that the point?
Post by: Tallpine on December 23, 2007, 06:03:20 AM
Quote
Merry Christmas ans Happy New Year to all
Nollaig Chridheil agus Bliadhna mhath ?r dhuibh uile!
Post by: atomd on December 23, 2007, 06:35:35 AM
There is only ONE great Irish Christmas tune
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltiY-BqvOIU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltiY-BqvOIU&feature=related
I love that song. Shane MacGowan is great...despite having the worst smile on the planet and completely uncontrollable alcoholism.
Post by: RevDisk on December 23, 2007, 01:58:51 PM
I still have to ask, what's so pagan about Christmas? The name? Christian. The churchy stuff going on? Christian. The little figurines of Middle-Eastern characters? Christian. The star on top of the tree? Christian. The guy in the red suit who gives gifts? Christian in origin.
What's so pagan about it?
What's so pagan about it?
It started off as Yule, the winter solstice. It was the half way point of winter, and everyone partied to celebrate the fact. Different pagan groups dressed it up with different traditions. The Romans celebrated the birth of Sol (sun god) on Dec 25th, so good enough.
Constantine and the church largely adopted the pagan holiday schedule, based on the season and mid season dates, to ease the conversion process. Naturally, the overtly pagan aspects were supposed to be suppressed, but plenty leaked through and endured. Tis why you have trees for Christmas, bunnies and eggs for Easter, etc etc. Considering early Church folks miscalculated the year Jesus was born, chosing a political date for his birth can easily be forgiven. (Herod was definitely king when Jesus was born. Herod was pretty reliably recorded to have died in the Spring of 4 BC.)
An interesting perspective I've read was "Natal Day", Catholic Encyclopedia (1908 ed., V. 3, pg. 724).
Quote
To me and many other people I know, "Happy Holidays" is not generic, it is PC talk.
To borrow from LawDog, ::gigglesnort::
Part of my religious beliefs incorporate Nordic pagan traditions. Most folks who more or less are similar in my belief structure typically do say "happy holidays". If you equate the term to being PC and if you consider Viking style behavior to be politcally correct, I DEFINITELY want to come to your holiday party regardless of what ya celebrate. I promise to bring weapons, copious amounts of alcohol and wenches.
Post by: Scout26 on December 24, 2007, 10:59:34 AM
Post by: El Tejon on December 24, 2007, 11:08:10 AM
Played that for the girlfriend. All I received were eye rolls and "we don't have time, we have to go shopping." You would think quasi-hippie chicks would be more open.
I loved those guys when they were together. Used to be on "Bob & Tom" regularly. Remember "Elvis was a Narc?"
Post by: Scout26 on December 24, 2007, 02:52:31 PM
http://www.bobandtom.com/gen3/index.htm
I would advise against playing "I want a boob job for Christmas" for the girlfriend.......
We don't get them up here in Chicago. I remember when they first started out on Q95 back in the early 80's......
Post by: BridgeWalker on December 24, 2007, 09:44:55 PM
Now I'm Roman Catholic and just got back from a tridentine mass, complete with Latin, kneeling at the alter rail, wonderful music, and lots of vatican calisthenics (stand-sit-kneel-stand-sit-kneel). It was incredible. I defy anyone to go to a service of that kind and resolve that at least for the attendees Christmas is not about Christ. It would be pretty hard.
So, it's not the actual anniversary of His birth. So what? Heck, I've celebrated two birthdays for much of my life--the Hebrew calendar one and the regular one, sometimes occurring several weeks apart. Dates and years are all human inventions. An evergreen? So what, who cares? I like my Christmas tree. Someone else holds a different meaning by it, or used to? So? This makes my holy day less holy how?
Nah, I don't care if random people on the street say "Merry Christmas" or not. Frankly, I rarely do, mostly because I'm just too shy and I grew up in a Jewish community, so I'm still getting used to the idea that a whole lot, maybe most, of the folks I interact with are at least nominally Christian. I like being wished a Merry Christmas.
I find "Happy Holidays" hokey though. Disrespects everyone equally.
But Christmas is about Christ for a whole lot of people. If it isn't to you, that is cool. But don't go messing with my holy days.
Post by: Perd Hapley on December 25, 2007, 08:24:13 PM
So, it's not the actual anniversary of His birth. So what? Dates and years are all human inventions.
Well, there's nothing man-made about the cycles of the stars, planets, moon, etc. But I know what you mean. We don't know the date of Christ's birth, so why not Dec. 25? I think that's what you're saying, and I agree. The fact that this was chosen to occlude some pagan holiday DOES NOT mean that Christmas used to be pagan, or really, actually is pagan, or has pagan roots, or is really a celebration of the solstice, for which the Incarnation is but a symbol, or anything of the sort. The fact that a bunch of pagans used to celebrate a holiday at this time, or that neo-pagans currently celebrate a holiday, or that some pagan traditions have worked their way into a very Christian holiday, doesn't change much, either.
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An evergreen? So what, who cares? I like my Christmas tree. Someone else holds a different meaning by it, or used to? So? This makes my holy day less holy how?
Right. In any case, the tree is only one aspect of possible paganism in a sea of Christian traditions. In fact, there is even a story of a Saint Boniface, who invented the Christmas tree as a direct affront to pagan deities. Pagan or Christian, it doesn't mean that much anymore.Quote
I find "Happy Holidays" hokey though. Disrespects everyone equally.
I'm not sure how it's hokey, or how it's disrespectful to those are celebrating a holiday. But not everyone is celebrating a holiday at this time of year. So if people won't say "Merry Christmas," then they shouldn't say "Happy Holidays," either.
Post by: 230RN on December 26, 2007, 09:12:44 PM
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=%22Feast+of+the+Circumcision%22
Post by: Scout26 on December 27, 2007, 09:43:33 AM
What's the appropriate meal for "The Feast Of The Circumcision."
Post by: 230RN on December 27, 2007, 09:04:19 PM
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230RN,
What's the appropriate meal for "The Feast Of The Circumcision."
What's the appropriate meal for "The Feast Of The Circumcision."
Beats me. I've wondered about that for years, but I've been afraid to ask. I can't wait for it 'cause "The Feast of the Circumcision" starts at 00:00:01 hours 01 Jan 2008. Woo hoo!
Post by: Iapetus on December 28, 2007, 01:48:19 AM
The guy in the red suit who gives gifts? Christian in origin.
What's so pagan about it?
What's so pagan about it?
I think the "guy in red" is the result of a merging of Christian and Pagan traditions.
Partly derived from the Christian story of St. Nicholas (who, in a number of European countries, is normally portrayed dressed in a bishop's robes, and delivers his gifts on 5th/6th of December, not on Christmas Eve. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_nicholas#Celebration_in_the_Netherlands
But also partly from Norse/Lapland pagan mythology. (That's where the elves, reindeer, and living in Lapland/ the North Pole aspects come from).
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Claus and also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_Christmas (the traditional English name for the character).
Post by: Perd Hapley on December 28, 2007, 02:01:58 AM
It has been said that bishops' (or cardinals') robes are the inspiration for the red Santa suit. And then there's the whole "Kris Kringle" thing, which is is just wierd. Look that one up on Wiki.
Post by: Desertdog on December 28, 2007, 08:37:50 AM
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I think the "guy in red" is the result of a merging of Christian and Pagan traditions.
Does it really matter where it started? It's here. To many there seems to be a effort to kill any Christian relationship to it by totally abolishing Christmas(Christ Mass) and return it to the Pagan ritual only.
Post by: gaston_45 on December 28, 2007, 04:53:03 PM
230RN,
What's the appropriate meal for "The Feast Of The Circumcision."
What's the appropriate meal for "The Feast Of The Circumcision."
Fried squid rings with cocktail sauce?
Post by: Tecumseh on December 29, 2007, 02:22:33 AM
I understand the "Happy Holidays" point of view. For a while, it even made sense to me. After all, not everyone celebrates Christmas. But to take that point further, not everyone is celebrating a holiday at this time of the year. So, "Happy Holidays" could be just as "offensive" as "Merry Christmas."
They dont have to celebrate the holiday but NEw Years is a holiday. If you say I hope you have a happy holiday it is not necessarily offensive.
I just think X-mas should not be a federal holiday. It is a violation of the 1st amendment. Unless they give every religious holiday off. Ramadan, Hanukkah, and Easter come to mind. Why not just make government employees use a sick day on X-mas if they want it off? Private business can do as they see fit.
Post by: Tecumseh on December 29, 2007, 02:23:22 AM
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Now that I'm an old right wing Christian anarchist I love saying merry Christmas especially if it makes young depressed liberals scream in agony.
Isn't that the point?
Because 'lil baby Jesus would want you to go around offending people in his name.
Post by: Perd Hapley on December 29, 2007, 04:22:55 AM
I understand the "Happy Holidays" point of view. For a while, it even made sense to me. After all, not everyone celebrates Christmas. But to take that point further, not everyone is celebrating a holiday at this time of the year. So, "Happy Holidays" could be just as "offensive" as "Merry Christmas."
They dont have to celebrate the holiday but NEw Years is a holiday. If you say I hope you have a happy holiday it is not necessarily offensive.
Because everyone in America celebrates the new year on Dec. 31/Jan. 1, right?
Even if they did, it still wouldn't make any sense to wish someone "Happy Holidays" until about the last week of Dec. Post by: SteveS on December 29, 2007, 05:18:58 AM
It is a violation of the 1st amendment. Unless they give every religious holiday off. Ramadan, Hanukkah, and Easter come to mind.
A day off somehow rises to the level of an 'establishment' under the 1st amendment? That is absolutely ridiculous. I guess we should make them work on Saturday and Sunday, since not working on those days has religious origins.
This religious group agrees with you: http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive2007/12-24-07.asp
Post by: Tecumseh on December 29, 2007, 05:48:17 AM
Saturday and Sunday are just days in a sense with religious origins. Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday all have religious origins in their name as well. The 7th day off is a Christian one. They can make their day off the 7th day, which is fine. I dont care.
My point is that I should not be paid extra for working Christmas because it is a government holiday. Holiday = holy day. Why not Ramadan? Or Channukah? Or Yom Kippur? What about some of the Hindu festivals? Why dont we get overtime pay for them if we work them? Or better yet, get them off if we are government workers?
What is wrong with having employees use personal days? Or private business working this out with their employees? If they have employees work, they are forced to pay them more. I thought conservatives were against government regulation and interference with private business?
Post by: Desertdog on December 29, 2007, 05:54:31 AM
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My point is that I should not be paid extra for working Christmas because it is a government holiday.
I'll bet a lot of employers would be willing to not pay you extra for working on holidays, Christmas or any others, if you request to work those days for straight pay.
Post by: BridgeWalker on December 29, 2007, 05:59:34 AM
Chanukah is a minor holiday and is not subject to the restrictions of holidays/sabbath. Also, it is eight days long. Ya really think no one should work for eight days to celebrate a holiday the celebration of which does not traditionally involve skipping working?
See, to answer Fistful's question from a couple days ago, this is why "happy holidays" is mildly irritating. It creates in the general public the impression that they are somehow aware of/participating in Jewish/black/other culture merely by wishing someone a happy holiday. When I was practicing Jew, it made sense to offer me holiday greetings on succos, pesach, the high holy days, and shavuous. Not so much chanukah.
Also, not everyone celebrates the New Year on Jan. 1. I used to celebrate it on Rosh Hashanah (or the first of Nissan, depending on how one counts). Now I celebrate it at the beginning of Advent. And yet, I'm still fine with Dec. 31/Jan. 1 as a generally celebrated New Year's.
Also, Ramadan is twenty eight days long (I believe). I'm pretty sure that Muslims, in Muslim theocracies, do not skip work for a month.
And no, a day off does not qualify as an establishment of religion.
Post by: Perd Hapley on December 29, 2007, 06:24:29 AM
What if government employees took Monday and Tuesday off instead? I dont care. Sunday and Saturday are the weekends here in the USA.
And Christmas is a cultural holiday here in the USA, which most non-religious people celebrate. Ramadan and Yom Kippur are not. Quote
My point is that Christmas is a non-secular holiday unlike 4th of July, Thanksgiving, or MLK day.
While Thanksgiving is not as specifically Christian as Christmas, it is no more secular than Christmas.
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Saturday and Sunday are just days in a sense with religious origins. Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday all have religious origins in their name as well. The 7th day off is a Christian one. They can make their day off the 7th day, which is fine. I dont care.
The religious origin of the name has nothing do with it. (And Christians worship on the first day, thank you.)Post by: Perd Hapley on December 29, 2007, 06:31:00 AM
See, to answer Fistful's question from a couple days ago, this is why "happy holidays" is mildly irritating. It creates in the general public the impression that they are somehow aware of/participating in Jewish/black/other culture merely by wishing someone a happy holiday.
No. No, it doesn't.
Post by: BridgeWalker on December 29, 2007, 06:37:11 AM
Quote from: fistful
No. No, it doesn't.
I think you might just not qualify as "general public"
If I wasn't horrifically late, I could give you about a zillion examples of folks who have somehow mentally turned Chanukah into THE major Jewish holiday, and are really delighted at their "knowledge" of Jewish culture because they know what chanukah is, reading into it a parallel with Christmas not just in timing but in significance as well. Everyone in this country knows what chanukah is. Most have no clue what succos/succot is. But, since I am horrifically late, I'll stop here.
Post by: Perd Hapley on December 29, 2007, 08:13:35 AM
I really don't think that most people think of "Happy Hanukkah" as participation. And when I used to get Christmas presents from Jewish clients, I didn't think they were trying to participate in a Christian holiday. I certainly don't think they did.
Do you also find it a little disappointing that Christmas is perceived as the major Christian holiday? I would put Good Friday at the top, myself, then Easter.
Post by: Tallpine on December 29, 2007, 12:09:25 PM
Post by: SteveS on December 29, 2007, 01:07:17 PM
And Christmas is a cultural holiday here in the USA, which most non-religious people celebrate.
Very true. Just read this quote from Richard Dawkins, who is not exactly a friend of religion.
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But of course [Christmas] has long since ceased to be a religious festival. I participate for family reasons, with a reluctance that owes more to aesthetics than atheistics. I detest Jingle Bells, White Christmas, Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer, and the obscene spending bonanza that nowadays seems to occupy not just December, but November and much of October, too.”
He added: “So divorced has Christmas become from religion that I find no necessity to bother with euphemisms such as happy holiday season. In the same way as many of my friends call themselves Jewish atheists, I acknowledge that I come from Christian cultural roots. I am a post-Christian atheist. So, understanding full well that the phrase retains zero religious significance, I unhesitatingly wish everyone a Merry Christmas.
He added: “So divorced has Christmas become from religion that I find no necessity to bother with euphemisms such as happy holiday season. In the same way as many of my friends call themselves Jewish atheists, I acknowledge that I come from Christian cultural roots. I am a post-Christian atheist. So, understanding full well that the phrase retains zero religious significance, I unhesitatingly wish everyone a Merry Christmas.
From: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/17/weekinreview/17kennedy.html?ex=1324011600&en=5617d1d1e70c27d5&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss