Student Refusing To Be RFID Tagged Loses Appeal

[roo_ster]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20957587

But Andrea Hernandez, 15, stopped wearing the badge on religious grounds, saying it was the "mark of the beast".

After John Jay High School suspended her, she went to court and won a temporary injunction to continue her studies at the school, without the tag.

The federal court ruling overturned that, saying if she was to stay at the school, she would be required to wear the badge. Otherwise, she would have to transfer to a new school.

Reason 1378-712 not to send your children to the government feed lots known as "public schools."

Where they can be videoed nude by must-have gov't issue laptops and have the kiddie-porn sent over the wires with no consequences to the kiddie-porno-purveyors who work for the gov't schools.

[HankB]

Wonder what 10 seconds in a microwave oven would do to the tag?

[SADShooter]

Wonder what 10 seconds in a microwave oven would do to the tag?

Great, for an hour or a day, until the drone notices the calculated count discrepancy and new tag is issued.

[drewtam]

Wonder what 10 seconds in a microwave oven would do to the tag?

If it damages the tag: likely a 10 day suspension with no make up work (a semester of failed grades) and $1000 bill to reimburse/replace a $1 item and prosecution for destruction of state property.

There is no winning except not to play. In other words, move, private school, or home-school.

[RevDisk]

Bit overblown. Student has badge at school, which solely has an ID number in it. Student can take it off immediately after leaving the property, and put it in a faraday cage. It's not significantly different than an ID card with a barcode or magstrip.

This should be an argument if badges can be mandatory in a government facility. The RFID part is kinda misdirection.


Re the school in PA. Yes, U.S. Attorney's Office, the FBI and the Montgomery County District Attorney recommended no criminal charges. Because the pictures were taken automatically, and not manually. Yes, it annoyed us. On the plus side, the district got whacked with a $610k settlement and insurance companies scrambled to make sure future privacy-invasion claims will not be covered under policy. Lower Merion School District passed the buck onto the IT department. Pretty much every other school has put out policies forbidding remote video or picture capture.

Yes, criminal charges should have been filled at a minimum. For the encouragement of the others. But it probably would not have led to a conviction. But, it's been handled. I'd prefer "fear of prison sentence" instead of "fear of expensive lawsuit", but it's still a win.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

My kids school uses those badges to run the kids through the lunch line. I like it. It works well

[Balog]

Bit overblown. Student has badge at school, which solely has an ID number in it. Student can take it off immediately after leaving the property, and put it in a faraday cage. It's not significantly different than an ID card with a barcode or magstrip.

Ummm...

Is it really reasonable to say "You have to keep this ID card, but don't worry you can put it in a Faraday cage after you leave school if you don't wanna be tracked!"?

[Bob F.]

I think a budding industry could be lockers-for-rent. In this case, decently secure; in gun-free (i.e. target rich) areas better security. Leave school, go across the street & put your ID in a "bus-station" locker.

[charby]

As poor as schools claim to be, I'm going to guess that this tag at most can be read 1-2m so being tracked outside of school would be pretty absurb. For greater distances one would need an active RF tag that has a much higher per unit cost.

I think the student feels that the tag is something resembled from Revelation 13:15-18.

I have been looking at RF tags for inventory control purposes so I know a bit about them. RF tags are a great way to passively keep track of items or people. I can see the school using them to see if a student enters/leaves the school, use it for a lunch ticket, etc. I don't think the school has any evil intent behind using RF tags. Maybe the school has had a problem with non students entering the school or studens skipping out during the day, etc.

[seeker_two]

As a TX school employee & taxpayer, I'm outraged at this decision....and not for Biblical reasons. The RFID tracking system is a way for that school district to defraud the state funding mechanism by substituting the tracking data for actual attendance verification. As long as the tracker can see that the ID is on-campus, it counts the student "present".....even if the ID is in a locker or up in the ceiling tiles or in a friend's pocket. Meanwhile, the actual student can be off-campus smoking dope or raiding the shopping mall or worse. Doesn't matter to the district....as long as they get paid for the student being "present"....

[charby]

As a TX school employee & taxpayer, I'm outraged at this decision....and not for Biblical reasons. The RFID tracking system is a way for that school district to defraud the state funding mechanism by substituting the tracking data for actual attendance verification. As long as the tracker can see that the ID is on-campus, it counts the student "present".....even if the ID is in a locker or up in the ceiling tiles or in a friend's pocket. Meanwhile, the actual student can be off-campus smoking dope or raiding the shopping mall or worse. Doesn't matter to the district....as long as they get paid for the student being "present"....

I don't think you understand how RF tags work, if they worked how you describe above the theft sensor at the local walmart would be constantly going off from reading the tags on all the easily stolen merchandise sitting on the shelves. Most RF tags have at most a 2 m (2 yards, 6 foot) range in which they can be read.

[MechAg94]

I don't think you understand how RF tags work, if they worked how you describe above the theft sensor at the local walmart would be constantly going off from reading the tags on all the easily stolen merchandise sitting on the shelves. Most RF tags have at most a 2 m (2 yards, 6 foot) range in which they can be read.

But if a friend carries the tag for them, it might still work if no one misses the student. 

[cordex]

I don't think you understand how RF tags work, if they worked how you describe above the theft sensor at the local walmart would be constantly going off from reading the tags on all the easily stolen merchandise sitting on the shelves. Most RF tags have at most a 2 m (2 yards, 6 foot) range in which they can be read.

Yep.  These are almost certainly used exclusively to increase speed of identification at chokepoints.

They could do the exact same thing with barcodes or the magnetic strip, it would just take a little bit longer.  Or they could have a make-work program for low-skilled workers and it could take a lot longer.

As to a friend carrying the tag ... we're not talking about a fully-automated school complex.  There are still teachers and faculty.  If someone's tag checks in the door (if they even scan on entry) but little Timmy doesn't show up to first period then they know he's skipping - maybe not where, but at least that he is.  They might get away with scanning an absent buddy's tag at lunch ("No ma'am, Timmy was tired so I said I'd get his lunch for him.") to get another portion, but that's not a major issue or unique to RFIDs.

[MechAg94]

My first reaction upon seeing the thread title was wondering if a school was trying to implact RFID tags.  An ID badge falls well short of that or any "number of the beast" issue IMO.

[charby]

An ID badge falls well short of that or any "number of the beast" issue IMO.

Perhaps for you and I, but that student felt strongly otherwise.

[T.O.M.]

We're using an RFID system here at work in place of traditional keys on many doors.  Basically, it's because the chips are cheaper than keys, easier to "change the lock" if a chip-key is lost or stolen, and because it does allow security to see what chip opened what door at what time.  For me, it's great because I went from carrying seven keys to carrying one blue disc, about half an inch across.  My understanding is that reader/scanner range can be adjusted from actual contact being required (our setting) to around four feet.

As to the school story, I don't think it's a problem within the school building.  After all, you could accomplish the same basic idea with proper classroom attendance checks and hallway monitoring/CCTV.  Where's the privacy interest within the school building for a student?  

[RevDisk]

Ummm...

Is it really reasonable to say "You have to keep this ID card, but don't worry you can put it in a Faraday cage after you leave school if you don't wanna be tracked!"?

Yes..?  Tracking is very short range.

125 kHz. and 134.3 kHz cards are under a foot read max distance. Essentially made for near contact.
13.56 MHz cards are ten meters, max. Realistically one meter.

You'd only need a faraday cage if you're paranoid. Otherwise, folks scanning you must be close and even then, they can only get the type of card and a numeric value. Sure, they could easily clone your card. Which sucks for security. Theoretically, they could ID you to that captured number. But they'd only be able to ID you to within 1-10m meters of active readers. Now, using this same tech for credit cards or official ID would be a bad idea (which is exactly why they've been implemented in passports, sigh...)

[lupinus]

Perhaps for you and I, but that student felt strongly otherwise.

A lot of people feel very strongly about all manner of things.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

You'd only need a faraday cage if you're paranoid.


you say paranoid like its a bad thing

[Balog]

I think the precedents here (tracking of students is a-ok and suppression of religious practice is fine if we think your religion is odd) are more important than the technical issues of the range of this iteration of the tracking device.

[roo_ster]

I think the precedents here (tracking of students is a-ok and suppression of religious practice is fine if we think your religion is odd) are more important than the technical issues of the range of this iteration of the tracking device.

Indeed.

[RevDisk]

I think the precedents here (tracking of students is a-ok and suppression of religious practice is fine if we think your religion is odd) are more important than the technical issues of the range of this iteration of the tracking device.

Correct. And I agree with you. I'm just arguing the technology aspect is BS, and should be a losing argument.

BUT, there has to be a line somewhere. Otherwise, I can invent a religion, claim any taxes are an abomination and happily freeload off the government dole (which is encouraged by Bob the Magically Pineapple, blessed be his Vitamin C). This is about mandatory ID in a government facility.

[Scout26]

ALL HAIL BOB !!!!

[charby]

ALL HAIL BOB !!!!

and his sweet/sour spiney goodness.

[Boomhauer]

ALL HAIL BOB !!!!

Bob saves! The end is near! Praise Bob! Insha'Boblah!