Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: WLJ on May 18, 2020, 08:53:38 AM
-
It would appear the plane caught fire after takeoff from a witness in the BBC report
Witness Annette Schonewille told CBC News: "The one plane continued and the other one, there was two puffs, it looked like puffs of smoke and one... was a ball of fire," she said.
"No noise, it was strange, and then the plane just did a cartwheel and fell right out of the sky. Just boom, straight down, and then a burst of black, black smoke."
One dead after Canadian Snowbirds jet crashes into home
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52701421
Update – Canadian Forces member killed, another injured after a Snowbird plane crashes into Kamloops house
https://www.radionl.com/2020/05/17/reports-of-a-plane-down-over-brock/
No word yet if Trudeau is going to ban assault planes
-
The RCAF has suffered another tragic loss of a dedicated member of the RCAF team. We are deeply saddened and grieve alongside Jenn’s family and friends. Our thoughts are also with the loved ones of Captain MacDougall. We hope for a swift recovery from his injuries. – Comd RCAF pic.twitter.com/UZKJa6OT3S
— CF Snowbirds (@CFSnowbirds) May 18, 2020
A Nova Scotian storyteller, she was a journalist before joining as a Public Affairs Officer.
Across Canada and the United States, she brought stories and smiles.
She was one of us, our sister.
Captain Jenn Casey died today.
Please say her name.
Remember Jenn.
-30- pic.twitter.com/irCwKc5ThY
— Canadian Forces in 🇺🇸 (@CAFinUS) May 18, 2020
-
Will Canada count this as a Covid-19 death?
-
Video and photos of the incident plus some details of the team, plane, and the ejection system.
It would appear the fire/smoke reported by a witness in the BBC report was from the ejection.
Snowbirds CL41 Tutor Crash 17 May 2020
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10Og_7sqU7s
-
This is what I worried about when we started those stupid flyovers. Unnecessary combination of combat aircraft and densely populated areas. Never a big fan of air shows, too much risk, no reward. As for this one my bet is engine ate a bird and then spontaneously disassembled.
-
I had questions. The video gives a little more information about what kind of jets these were and the ejection. Sounds like they hit the ground hard even with ejection.
-
I hate to see the death of a pilot, but I'm also relieved no one in the house was hurt.
-
The Snowbirds aerobatics team was scheduled to leave Kamloops at 10 a.m. and head to Kelowna via Merritt, Princeton, and Vernon today. The Operation Inspiration tour started in Nova Scotia earlier this month and was aimed at boosting morale as Canadians continue to struggle with the COVID-19 pandemic.
I don't understand how sending a bunch of highly-paid adults out to play in public with toys the average person can't afford is in any way a morale booster to people who can't work because their employers' businesses have been shut down.
-
I had questions. The video gives a little more information about what kind of jets these were and the ejection. Sounds like they hit the ground hard even with ejection.
I was wondering about the ejection seat envelope and the video answered that. From the looks of the video they were in a bad attitude when they initiated the ejection sequence and it kind of shot them into the ground with no chute deployment. As an older trainer type of plane I didn't think they had zero/zero seats but you never know.
bob
-
This is what I worried about when we started those stupid flyovers. Unnecessary combination of combat aircraft and densely populated areas. Never a big fan of air shows, too much risk, no reward.
The Snowbirds do not fly combat aircraft. They fly old, slow trainers. I know you were referencing the US flyovers, though.
"John Cuday, president of the Virginia-based International Council of Air Shows, contends air shows are safe for spectators. No spectator at an airshow – which has different rules than air races -- has been killed since the 1950s because of safety measures in place, he said." https://www.daytondailynews.com/news/local/how-safe-are-air-shows-here-how-many-crashes-occurred-past-decade/BUvmdtqlXZXAUYumQvpzSP/
Safer than racing cars. https://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/nascar-auto-racing/thatsracin/article9152399.html
As for this one my bet is engine ate a bird and then spontaneously disassembled.
You might have this piece right.
-
I was wondering about the ejection seat envelope and the video answered that. From the looks of the video they were in a bad attitude when they initiated the ejection sequence and it kind of shot them into the ground with no chute deployment. As an older trainer type of plane I didn't think they had zero/zero seats but you never know.
bob
Plane was upright when they ejected. Not sure why they rolled it before that. Maybe trying to point it into a field.
-
Not sure why they rolled it before that. Maybe trying to point it into a field.
Think they tip stalled
-
...
-
Plane was upright when they ejected. Not sure why they rolled it before that. Maybe trying to point it into a field.
From what I saw in the video they were upright (possibly > 60 degrees nose down) and the smoke trails from the seat motors were going down at about a 45 degree angle. With the 60/60 seats there may not have been time for a full chute deployment before hitting the ground.. It will make the news when the CAF finishes their investigation. I think the bottom line (or major contributing factor) for the fatality of one and injuries to the other will be ejecting outside the seat envelope. Seldom does an ejection result in a fatality if done inside the seat envelope.
bob
-
May Captain Casey rest in peace.
Tragic, but the reporting was a bit annoying in this sense:
It sure would have been nice to find out what a Snowbird was before getting halfway through the RADIO NL article. I suspected some kind of aero team (perhaps an elite military team, for example), but no confirmation unil then.
At first glance at the topic heading ("Snowbird down"), I thought it was the NCAR (National Center for Atmospheric Research --U.S.) weather plane...
Sounds more like a joint New York/Florida civil air corps project.
-
May Captain MacDougall rest in peace.
Captain Jenn Casey is the deceased
MacDougall was injured
-
^^ Actually, fistful, that was my second guess. I was just being crabby about the assumption being, "just everybody knows what a Canadian Snowbird is."
My third guess had something to do with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police foot-racing in snowshoes.
I'm just full of irks this morning, is all. =(
Who, What, When, Where, and How.
Terry, 230RN
-
Captain Jenn Casey is the deceased
MacDougall was injured
Doh!
-
Seldom does an ejection result in a fatality if done inside the seat envelope.
My father-in-law can attest to that. He has ejected. Twice.
-
The Snowbirds do not fly combat aircraft. They fly old, slow trainers. I know you were referencing the US flyovers, though.
"John Cuday, president of the Virginia-based International Council of Air Shows, contends air shows are safe for spectators. No spectator at an airshow – which has different rules than air races -- has been killed since the 1950s because of safety measures in place, he said." https://www.daytondailynews.com/news/local/how-safe-are-air-shows-here-how-many-crashes-occurred-past-decade/BUvmdtqlXZXAUYumQvpzSP/
Safer than racing cars. https://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/nascar-auto-racing/thatsracin/article9152399.html
You might have this piece right.
I am aware of our air show record. I also think of the aircrew and of foreign shows. Working in the F-18 community you become aware that the sketchiest maintenance title belongs to the Blues. I know when an Oceana jet went splat on an apartment I was so happy that I read it was a two seater since at the time we only had single seats so I knew it wasn’t something I touched. It’s a terrible feeling. To my knowledge I never worked on a mishap bird.
-
On another note, I was not familiar with the Snowbirds. I have heard snowbird used to decribe people from up North traveling down to their Winter homes further South.
-
Saw the Snowbirds perform at the Reno air races back in the late '70s. An impressive aerobatic team.
Condolences to Captain Casey and her family.
-
Video and photos of the incident plus some details of the team, plane, and the ejection system.
It would appear the fire/smoke reported by a witness in the BBC report was from the ejection.
Snowbirds CL41 Tutor Crash 17 May 2020
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10Og_7sqU7s
Great, great video, WLJ ! It seemed they were too high for a bird strike when the "pop" occurred --yes, no?
A. Is there any way to enhance the images to see if that was the case?
B. Do they have black (actually orange) box flight recorders on those planes in the aerobatic function?
C. Do those GE engines send performance reports to satellites the way some P&W and R-R engines do?
-
Great, great video, WLJ ! It seemed they were too high for a bird strike when the "pop" occurred --yes, no?
A. Is there any way to enhance the images to see if that was the case?
B. Do they have black (actually orange) box flight recorders on those planes in the aerobatic function?
C. Do those GE engines send performance reports to satellites the way some P&W and R-R engines do?
They weren't too high for a bird strike.
A. I doubt it, but I'm no expert.
B. No idea.
C. Not likely considering the age of the plane and the fact they are military.
4. I'm not WLJ.
-
4. I'm not WLJ.
?
-
?
230RN's post mentioned you by name, which sort of sounds like he wanted you to answer his questions. I just wanted 230RN to know that I am not trying to answer for you.
-
230RN's post mentioned you by name, which sort of sounds like he wanted you to answer his questions. I just wanted 230RN to know that I am not trying to answer for you.
Got it, I was just wondering
-
Great, great video, WLJ ! It seemed they were too high for a bird strike when the "pop" occurred --yes, no?
Birds can be hit at nearly any altitude although most birds fly below 1500ft.
An aircraft over the Ivory Coast collided with a Rüppell's vulture at the altitude of 11,300 m (37,100 ft), the current record avian height.
https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/36493/whats-the-greatest-height-at-which-a-bird-has-collided-with-an-aircraft
Just some more random knowledge to store. ;)
bob
-
I don't know that plane but the F-18 has a nasty habit that it's engines are very close together so a FOD of one can blow a compressor and it chunks through the fuselage and gets the one motor you need to get home with. That's what happened with the F-18D that went splat in VA Beach a few years ago. Midday, landed on an apartment complex, God looking out for fools that day, the only casualty was one house cat.
-
the only casualty was one house cat.
(https://www.funnycatsite.com/pictures/oh_noooo353.jpg)
-
I don't know that plane but the F-18 has a nasty habit that it's engines are very close together so a FOD of one can blow a compressor and it chunks through the fuselage and gets the one motor you need to get home with. That's what happened with the F-18D that went splat in VA Beach a few years ago. Midday, landed on an apartment complex, God looking out for fools that day, the only casualty was one house cat.
The one house cat foolish enough to be in the house.
-
I was complimenting WLJ for posting the video and had some questions that kind of looked like I was asking WLJ, but Fly230 answered.
Ooops. Answered already above.
-
https://youtu.be/AER-zXA5fHg
-
Very interesting, HeroHog, apart from the Snowbird maintenance issue itself. Up to now, I thought all counter-liberal viewpoints and information outlets in Canada had been thoroughly squashed.
It's nice to know I was wrong in that respect. Ms. Gunn-Reid provides the evidence. I note the symbolic megaphone in the backdrop. Good show !
My one problem is I wish she would stop calling liberals "liberals" and start calling them what they are.
Terry
-
The woman who made that video may be more than a little lacking in her understanding of the logistics involved. Here's what a friend (who follows aviation stuff avidly) had to say about it:
Interesting, but more than a little bit silly. And quite a bit misleading.
Yes, the planes are old. Crazy old.
The USAF's trainers are older.
And unlike the Canadian jet, which is only used for demo purposes, the T-38 (in USAF service) is still the advanced/transition trainer (the bulk of the training being done with a much smaller and newer turboprop). It is also used operationally, specifically as an aggressor (aka "Red Air") for F-22 pilots. And in this role, it's not upgraded at all, it still has all its 1950s avionics; the ones used for training have been modernized a little bit.
(Trump approved the replacement for the T-38, but it will take a while for them to go into service and replace the T-38 completely)
Anyway... the contract this lady refers to clearly refers to the plane's engine, that's what "J85" is. Guess what, USAF's T-38s also use this engine. Not identical (the T-38 has the afterburning version, the Canadian jets don't) but there are still a lot of these engines out there. Some old Learjets had this engine as well, and a newer version of it is also used in the Northrop F-5 (still used by the Marines and others for aggressor training). Many F-5E/F jets are still in active use around the world, mainly in Central/South America and Asia.
(Greece used to have A LOT of F-5s. When they were retired their J85 engines were all sent to our training squadron, which uses the T-2 Buckeye trainer, which has the non-afterburning J85 like the Canadians. That helped keep those jets flying for so long)
The lady in the video makes a big deal of the secrecy in the contract. She may have a point there, but it's pretty common for military contractors to be told to keep quiet about contract details.
She also puts emphasis on the term "cannibalizing", used to describe the process of sourcing parts from grounded jets for keeping other jets flying, or transferring parts from a working jet whose airframe has reached its 'end-of-life', on to another previously retired and stored jet, which still has hours left on its wings. Her use of the term is pretty stupid. The term has been used this way since WWII, if not before, and its common practice when you still have a few of something you're still using, with many more in storage. That's exactly why the US keeps so many jets in desert fields!
I'm no fan of Trudeau but I don't think this is really his doing, Canada managed to put itself in a catch-22 with the Snowbirds, and it started over a decade ago, when they decided to outsource their military's flight training -- way before Trudeau came into being: training is being handled by a company (whose name escapes me right now) in Canada, which uses British-made Hawk trainers -- an updated version of the birds flown by the Red Arrows, USN is using a carrier-capable variant of that jet, too (as the T-45 'Goshawk'). It's an older design than some others out there, but quite capable and still in production so maintenance is a non-issue. The company trains the Canadian military, as well as a number of participating NATO countries' pilots.
Usually, if an airforce has a demo team, it uses whatever plane they have as a trainer -- the US is the exception, using bigger, meaner, cooler fighters*. Everyone else sticks to trainers. The Canadians did the same with the Tutor, when it was being used in the training role. Well now they've outsourced their training, so they had to either a) keep flying the same old plane, using available spares, or b) buy a dedicated type for demo purposes only. IMHO either option is pretty bad, but it doesn't surprise me they went with keeping the old. It would be pretty silly to buy and stock up spares for just a handful of planes. They probably should have negotiated a deal with that company, i.e. buy some of the same Hawk trainers and arrange to have them maintained by that company... or something. But maybe it wasn't that simple, since there was NATO funding involved there, who knows. Otherwise, buying only a handful of demo planes, with no commonality with their existing fleet, would probably be more expensive than repainting some of their CF-188 (better known as F/A-18A and B, i.e. what the Blue Angels use) jet fighters, and use those instead. Except that they're a bit short of F/A-18s, but that's another long story (a funny one, though, and that one DOES feature some stupidity from Trudeau).
I know these details because Canada's way of dealing with training has been discussed at length in Greece as a 'model' that they might imitate (...), since they too have some very, very, VERY old trainers, and are basically skint: Greece has good flying weather, and very few restrictions on military flying, compared to elsewhere in Europe, so the idea was to create a "flying academy" with NATO and/or EU support (hah!) and fund the purchase of some new jets this way, either at the state level or via a private entity. Interesting in theory, except NATO already funds that company in Canada, plus the Italians next door, have pretty much the same deal going in the south of Italy (also good weather, also with little flight traffic and restrictions)... and unlike Greece, Italians MAKE military jet trainers of their own, and they're actually good at it.
So Greece may be stuck with T-2s (also older than the Canadian Tutors) for some time to come... or bite the bullet and send their pilots over to Italy for training. If we keep the T-2s, at least they have two engines each... and they DID receive an upgrade for their ejection seats at some point, so pilots can eject even when they're on the ground. The Canadians haven't done that.
*...except during the oil crisis in the 70s, when USAF's Thunderbirds used the T-38.
-
Very interesting, HeroHog, apart from the Snowbird maintenance issue itself. Up to now, I thought all counter-liberal viewpoints and information outlets in Canada had been thoroughly squashed.
....
Terry
Boldface added.
Terry, 230RN
-
Birds can be hit at nearly any altitude although most birds fly below 1500ft.
https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/36493/whats-the-greatest-height-at-which-a-bird-has-collided-with-an-aircraft
Just some more random knowledge to store. ;)
bob
Great general info on the question ! Thanks !
Terry