Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: T.O.M. on January 07, 2022, 07:35:02 PM
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Federal has introduced a new caliber, the 30 Super Carry. It looks like a .31 caliber, 100-120 grain bullet at between 1000 and 1250 FPS. The benefits are increased mag capacity, stopping power similar to 9mm, and less blast/recoil than 9mm. Federal indicates they designed the round from the ground up for use in the mini 9mm sized guns, and to have better ballistics than .380. They also say that because of the reduced recoil impulse, the recoil spring is lighter, resulting in easier slide racking.
Wonder if this one will catch on, or if it's destined for a Forgotten Weapons episode...
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Saw that and couldn't help comparing it to 7.65×21mm Parabellum, 9mm Para's parent cartridge.
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Looks like they shortened the .30 Carbine round . . . or "magnumized" the .32 ACP?
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I'd love to see a cross-section of the brass - specifically the case head.
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I've been lurking on the THR discussion, which is a roller coaster. So far all I get out of it is a desire for a surplus M1935.
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Hey guys we're in the middle of a ridiculous multi year ammo shortage! What do we do? Let's design a new caliber, hooray! Light and fast or heavy and slow, the war rages on. I keep trying to get as much heavy and fast as I can.
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The first link I found said 100 grain bullet at 1250 FPS and allows 2 more rounds in a standard mag. It also said a S&W Shield Plus would be among the first guns in that caliber. I guess that means a 15 round mag in a Shield plus. If the velocity holds up, it ought to be an effective cartridge. Does it give that velocity out of a short Shield Plus barrel?
I would also ask how the recoil compares to 9mm or 380. Does this provide a more powerful replacement for 380 that is just as easy to shoot and fits in a pistol just as compact? I doubt this would work in something like a Keltec P3AT, but in one of the newer compact 9mm handguns like the Shield plus or P365, it might work just fine.
https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/new-for-2022-30-super-carry/
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Reports are that chamber pressure is supposed to be in the 50,000 PSI range. That could be very problematic.
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Reports are that chamber pressure is supposed to be in the 50,000 PSI range. That could be very problematic.
357Sig is 40k Max SAAMI and it beats up many frames and slides.
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The 2 problems we've identified with this loading are a) high chamber pressure, and b) ammo scarcity. Is the first one that much of a problem, as most owners aren't likely to shoot their .30 SC guns enough to wear them out? The second one might be less of a problem, depending on a couple of things. Are there enough people who carry .380 pistols, but are worried about them being under-powered, and/or can't find ammo for them? If the manufacturers can pump out enough .30 SC to meet or exceed the availability of .380, maybe it'll work out?
From one perspective, this is the perfect time to introduce a round like this. Since the Sig 365, it's been a race to see who can cram the most ammo into a sub-compact carry gun. A 15-round Shield could be another game-changer. Or a 15-round CSX (https://www.guns.com/news/2022/01/03/new-smith-and-wesson-delivers-the-csx-pistol).
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Ah, the quest for a handgun with the power of a .44 magnum, but the recoil of a .22lr.
If it offers a ballistic improvement over the .380, and comes in a pistol like the LCP in terms of size, I might have an interest. Then again, maybe I just get a .380 version and probably save money on the pistol and ammo because it's not the newest, bestest thing on the market.
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Seeing some doing the math concerning the 50k PSI and bolt thrust and one guy came up with
.30 Super Carry = 0.0765 square inches x 50K = 3,823 lbs.
9mm Luger = 0.0990 square inches x 35K = 3,464 lbs.
9mm Luger +P = 0.0990 square inches x 38.5K = 3,811 lbs.
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/16812119/30-super-carry
Not really a problem with a good 9mm sized setup except causing more long term wear and tear but aren't they talking about using this in some 380 size guns? Would be a hand full. Plus I suspect it's going to be LOOOOOUD
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Isn't there a bottleneck cartridge used in the P90 that is designed for lower recoil and way higher magazine capacity?
Why not use that in a shield-type platform for all the same reasons?
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um, I am not well informed on this particular aspect of gun related info, but isn't that three twenty seven round used in the sp101 was going to do this?
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um, I am not well informed on this particular aspect of gun related info, but isn't that three twenty seven round used in the sp101 was going to do this?
Perhaps in a revolver. Same idea I suppose, extra round(s) in the same size gun.
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Isn't there a bottleneck cartridge used in the P90 that is designed for lower recoil and way higher magazine capacity?
Why not use that in a shield-type platform for all the same reasons?
Wonder what kind of performance you'd get from the 5.7 out of a short barrel handgun... In a gun like the SIG P365, you might get 15-16 rounds in the magazine. Recoil wouldn't be bad. Curious about how loud it would be...
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.30 Carbine is a real firecracker in a handgun. Sounds like (as already mentioned) they just shortened it to make it fit.
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5.7x28 is pretty long. (28mm or so :) ). Not conducive to small gun grips.
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Let's just treat 7.62x25 with modern bullets and powders and see how fast we can make it.
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Let's just treat 7.62x25 with modern bullets and powders and see how fast we can make it.
YIKES!!
I think that is a great idea, I recall hearing ( 20 yrs ago or so ) that they were great SD rounds for the time they were created, I think that it is a great idea.
Can I subscribe to your newsletter?
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High chamber pressure in a short barrel compact pistol sounds like a recipe for some pretty impressive muzzle blast. Even if they use flash-suppressed powder so it's not too bright, I would still expect it to be loud.
Wonder if an FMJ round would penetrate a soft kevlar vest . . . and how fast you could drive the .32 ACP's typical 71 grain FMJ slug.
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Looks like an overly complicated solution in search of a problem to me.
More power to 'em but, meh, whatever.
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I would be worried about amping up one of the old small cartridges in a blowback gun. The Tokerav is (I think) locked breech, but it's not a particularly small gun.
There are certain size limits that come with locking lugs that can hold 50k psi of chamber pressure.
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5.7x28 is pretty long. (28mm or so :) ). Not conducive to small gun grips.
I thought I heard that 5.7 can't be used with a blowback system. It requires a locked breech system which complicates the design.
For this stuff, I am sure there will be reviews and we will see how it works in reality. 224 Valkyrie had a lot of hype and promise and didn't quite do what a lot of people thought it should do.
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High chamber pressure in a short barrel compact pistol sounds like a recipe for some pretty impressive muzzle blast. Even if they use flash-suppressed powder so it's not too bright, I would still expect it to be loud.
Wonder if an FMJ round would penetrate a soft kevlar vest . . . and how fast you could drive the .32 ACP's typical 71 grain FMJ slug.
Meh, use blue dot. Concealed subcompact pistol, flamethrower and flashlight all in one.
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Meh, use blue dot. Concealed subcompact pistol, flamethrower and flashlight all in one.
I tried Blue Dot in .30 Carbine revolver loads. Blew two case heads off. (did the same thing with .357 Magnum) That's not a big deal in a revolver, except it was a bitch getting the stuck cases out, but could be tragic in a semiauto. I don't use Blue Dot anymore.
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Blue Dot (IIRC) and Hercules were my "go-to" powders for 9mm. Real nice Snap to it in a +P+ load!
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Blue Dot (IIRC) and Hercules were my "go-to" powders for 9mm. Real nice Snap to it in a +P+ load!
Ise Hercules the same as Herco? I love Herco in revolver cartridges; never tried it in 9mm because it's so bulky I didn't think a full load would fit.
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Ise Hercules the same as Herco? I love Herco in revolver cartridges; never tried it in 9mm because it's so bulky I didn't think a full load would fit.
I don't think so. It was a Hot pistol powder. Quick burning. 5 grains behind a 115 gr 9mm was fairly potent.
I must be misremembering the powder name: https://www.alliantpowder.com/general/about_us.aspx
Bullseye perhaps? I know it was discontinued in the 80/90s. My memory SUCKS! :old:
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Blue Dot (IIRC) and Hercules were my "go-to" powders for 9mm. Real nice Snap to it in a +P+ load!
Hercules was a powder manufacturer. They never had a specific powder called Hercules.
"I don't think so. It was a Hot pistol powder. Quick burning. 5 grains behind a 115 gr 9mm was fairly potent."
What you're describing does sound like Herco. Although not an optimal powder for 9mm, I know some people who did use it.
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I would be worried about amping up one of the old small cartridges in a blowback gun. The Tokerav is (I think) locked breech, but it's not a particularly small gun.
There are certain size limits that come with locking lugs that can hold 50k psi of chamber pressure.
The Tokarev TT30 and TT33 pistols both use the same locking system as the 1911.
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. . .
What you're describing does sound like Herco. Although not an optimal powder for 9mm, I know some people who did use it.
Though I never tried it myself, I remember reading articles extolling the virtues of Herco for loading 9mm P. Newer powders seem to have displaced it somewhat, but my old Speer and Sierra loading manuals show some of the highest 9mm P velocities were delivered by Herco.
(I usually used 700-X or SR-4756 for loading the 9 since I bought them in large cannisters - up to 12 lbs - for loading shotshells.)
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Back towards the original topic. I just watched this video about the 30 Super Carry:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJBDWAj4h44&t=283s
In the video, they say that the caliber was designed to fill a gap between .380 and 9mm. Say that it will allow for 9mm performance from .380 sized handguns, or an increase in capacity for bigger guns. They show full sized 1911 handguns from Nighthawk custom in the new round, with 12 round capacity in the magazines. They are talking ballpark 20% increase in mag capacity. At the same time, an LCP with 9mm power would be interesting.
Might actually be worth keeping an eye on...
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I'd be interested in a S&W Shield. Here in CT I can theoretically get +10-round mags by virtue of my military service, but in practicality the shops rarely have any in stock. My last trip to Maine, for example, I was finally able to buy some Beretta PX4 9mm 17-rounders that have been on my wish list for almost three years.
Anyway, ten rounds in a flush-fit Shield mag would be of interest to me.
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I am curious about the muzzle blast and such considering this will be a higher pressure round. Considering one of the guns planned for it is a S&W Shield Plus, that is a pretty short barrel. Hopefully, we will see some reviews and shooting video soon.
SHOT show is this week so I expect it to be there.
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As far as I know we still haven't gotten around F=ma.
350 ft-lbs in a small gun is going to be snappy, kinda no matter what. In a 9mm sized gun it gives you a couple more rounds, but with the P365/Hellcat guns, that's less of an issue then it used to be.
I predict some of these will sell, ammo will be pricey, they won't get shot much, and fade away.
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As far as I know we still haven't gotten around F=ma.
350 ft-lbs in a small gun is going to be snappy, kinda no matter what. In a 9mm sized gun it gives you a couple more rounds, but with the P365/Hellcat guns, that's less of an issue then it used to be.
I predict some of these will sell, ammo will be pricey, they won't get shot much, and fade away.
Either way, I think the SHOT Show Industry day at the range is today. Hopefully we will see some video and commentary of people actually shooting it.
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As far as I know we still haven't gotten around F=ma.
350 ft-lbs in a small gun is going to be snappy, kinda no matter what. In a 9mm sized gun it gives you a couple more rounds, but with the P365/Hellcat guns, that's less of an issue then it used to be.
I predict some of these will sell, ammo will be pricey, they won't get shot much, and fade away.
So, .327 Federal Magnum for pocket autos?
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So, .327 Federal Magnum for pocket autos?
Is that like .357mag for derringers?
https://youtu.be/CKu0RXCB6G4
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So, .327 Federal Magnum for pocket autos?
The .327 almost equals the .357 for kinetic energy - momentum and impact aree, though, are less. That's because the .327 operates at 45,000 PSI vs. 35,000 PSI for the .357. (Not going to get into the apparent disparity between loads at the PSI vs. CUP pressure limits for the .357.)
Similarly, the .30 Super Carry almost equals the 9mm P for kinetic energy - and again, momentum and impact area are less.
The .30 Super Carry seems to be not quite as potent as the .327, but then you get into things like barrel length, cylinder gap of a revolver vs. solid pistol barrel, etc.
I don't expect to see +P or +P+ loads for the .30 SC, but if you throw those into the mix, the 9mm pulls further ahead. (Disclaimer: some 9mm P pistols should not be used with +P or +P+ ammo.)
I don't see the .30 SC as a bad round, it's just one of those rounds (like the mutually incompatible short .300 mag rifle rounds Ruger, Win, & Rem introduced) that really don't seem to have much point.
Is that like .357mag for derringers?
https://youtu.be/CKu0RXCB6G4
Notice in the link the guy had his hand over the muzzle(s) of that pistol when he closed the action?
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I don't see the .30 SC as a bad round, it's just one of those rounds that really don't seem to have much point.
Kind-a the point I was trying to make. Yet another round, in a market swarming with them. If you've never bought a gun before, you might listen to the salesman and buy one.
(At least with a .327 Federal gun, you can shoot the smaller .32 revolver rounds (if you can find them). I don't see .32 anything much around here.)
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I have one of the Beretta 81 pistols in 32 ACP with a 12 round capacity. Those shoot pretty good. I am trying to picture that pistol with a hotter round and having trouble. Something to think about.
I met a guy at my range with a big Ruger Blackhawk in 327 Mag. It had no recoil, but the muzzle blast was substantial with a 5" or 6" barrel. I never fired one out of a pocket revolver.
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"I have one of the Beretta 81 pistols in 32 ACP with a 12 round capacity. "
Same. I absolutely love it.
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I don't expect to see +P or +P+ loads for the .30 SC, but if you throw those into the mix, the 9mm pulls further ahead. (Disclaimer: some 9mm P pistols should not be used with +P or +P+ ammo.)
What's a 9mm P pistol?
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What's a 9mm P pistol?
I would assume P for Parabellum
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Not much here other than oooohs and aaahs
30 Super Carry SHOT Show 2022 Range Day
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6z03nP5SuOg
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https://youtu.be/GP_c1Pp2JUI
Here is a video from TFB. Includes a short quote from Gun Jesus. Everyone says it's just like shooting a 9mm. No mention of excessive blast. Just extra rounds in the magazine.
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The guns do look like they are recoiling sharply, but it is hard to tell from the video.
I guess we will see what things look like once terminal ballistics info starting coming out and ammo pricing/availability is more apparent.
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Having fired the Kel-Tec P40 and a Scandium-framed .357 snubby, recoil is relative.
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Anyone seen any 30SC vs 9mm gel tests that aren't basically an ad for the round?