Author Topic: CERN Black Hole maybe not so benign?  (Read 11262 times)

AZRedhawk44

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CERN Black Hole maybe not so benign?
« on: January 30, 2009, 09:41:16 AM »
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,483477,00.html?=done

Quote
Still worried that the Large Hadron Collider will create a black hole that will destroy the Earth when it's finally switched on this summer?

Um, well, you may have a point.

Three physicists have reexamined the math surrounding the creation of microscopic black holes in the Switzerland-based LHC, the world's largest particle collider, and determined that they won't simply evaporate in a millisecond as had previously been predicted.

Rather, Roberto Casadio of the University of Bologna in Italy and Sergio Fabi and Benjamin Harms of the University of Alabama say mini black holes could exist for much longer — perhaps even more than a second, a relative eternity in particle colliders, where most objects decay much faster.

Under such long-lived conditions, it becomes a race between how fast a black hole can decay — and how fast it can gobble up matter to grow bigger and prevent itself from decaying.

Casadio, Fabi and Harms think the black hole would lose out, and pass through the Earth or out of the atmosphere before it got to be a problem.

"We conclude that ... the growth of black holes to catastrophic size does not seem possible. Nonetheless, it remains true that the expected decay times are much longer (and possibly >> 1 second) than is typically predicted by other models," the three state in a brief paper posted at the scientific discussion Web site ArXiv.org.

FoxNews.com can think of a few other things that didn't seem possible once — the theory of continental drift, the fact that rocks fall from the sky, the notion that the Earth revolves around the sun, the idea that scientists could be horribly wrong.

We're also wondering how often the LHC might create individual black holes, since longer-lived ones have a greater chance of merging with each other, and, um, well, see ya.

If the worst comes to pass, and there's now a slightly greater chance that it might, at least it might explain why we've never heard from extraterrestrial civilizations: Maybe they built Large Hadron Colliders of their own.


Who here is a physics expert?  I got me a couple questions.

Do black holes expel any energy at all?  Obviously not light.  Do they radiate heat?  How about X-rays, gamma rays or anything in the non-visible spectrum?

If an object such as a black hole is incapable of expelling energy yet has sufficient gravitational force to continue to attract mass, won't it become a perpetual motion machine and continue to be fed by the mass near it?

These scientists suggest that the black hole may exist for as long as a second.  Considering that the subatomic particles are moving at the speed of light prior to creation of the object, the black hole has the potential to move a great distance in that 1 second if not contained by the magnetic fields of the atom smasher.  Can a black hole even be contained via magnetic force?  Does it have a charge of its own?  If the smasher fails and the hole is released, or the hole's force is greater than that of the atom smasher's force, the black hole would be attracted downwards into the gravity of the Earth.  It would continue to attract mass to itself unless able to expel energy somehow.

How exactly does a black hole dissipate?  The way these scientists talk about it in their paper, they suggest it decays into a 4th dimension, excepting gravitons.  And... what the heck is a brane?

Here's the actual document cited in the news article, written by Casadio, Fabi and Harms.
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0901/0901.2948v1.pdf

I read the paper and the math was WAY over my head.  Their conclusion is that the growth of a black hole to catastrophic size does not seem possible.  The closer a black hole gets to sufficient mass to be catastrophic, it will take longer to reach that mass and also will exit the Earth before reaching that mass. (Hooray, for us!  Sending out little self-sustaining baby black holes into space!)

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BrokenPaw

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Re: CERN Black Hole maybe not so benign?
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2009, 09:55:53 AM »
Black holes do not radiate energy, as such, because the very definition of a black hole is that it has a gravity well strong enough that not even energy can escape from within the event horizon.

However, they appear to evaporate because of something called "Hawking Radiation" (after Stephen Hawking).  As I understand it (and I may have the details wrong, but the gist of it is this): 

Empty space is not truly empty; fluctuations in the quantum probabilities that still exist in empty space lead to the creation of "virtual particles" in pairs: a particle and its anti-particle.  Because they have opposite charges, they attract one another and annihilate, but because they're "virtual", the annihilation uses up the same amount of energy as the virtual creation required, and so the net energy balance of the area is zero (the fact that they're giving up energy that was already used up sounds sort of like short-selling of stock -- you're selling something you didn't own, in order to get back to the amount you didn't have).

Near the event horizon of a black hole, a virtual pair can spawn, and then one of the pair can cross the event horizon and be taken in, while the other does not, and radiates as energy into the universe.  Since energy can neither be created nor destroyed, the fact that the universe outside the event horizon has a net energy gain in this situation means that the area inside the event horizon has to have a net energy (and therefore mass) loss.  Over time, this is what causes black holes to evaporate.

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Manedwolf

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Re: CERN Black Hole maybe not so benign?
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2009, 09:57:42 AM »
Black holes radiate nothing, of course. Matter falling into it, however, releases energy as gravity squeezes it to an absolute state, as it falls towards the singularity, before it crosses the event horizon. It's why we can detect the things.

K Frame

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Re: CERN Black Hole maybe not so benign?
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2009, 10:00:37 AM »
"Black holes radiate nothing, of course."


Two words...

Hawking Radiation.
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Manedwolf

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Re: CERN Black Hole maybe not so benign?
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2009, 10:04:39 AM »
"Black holes radiate nothing, of course."


Two words...

Hawking Radiation.

X-rays from the accretion disk of gases as well, if you're talking in terms of stellar ones, not mini ones.

K Frame

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Re: CERN Black Hole maybe not so benign?
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2009, 10:05:39 AM »
The physics that work for a massive black hole should also parallel a mini black hole. At least that's my understanding. So, theoretically, a mini black hole should be able to emit radiation... I think.


OK, from the Wikipedia write up on it...

'Smaller micro black holes (MBHs) are predicted to be larger net emitters of radiation than larger black holes, and to shrink and dissipate faster.'

Yes, I know, Wikipedia....

But... Wikipedia with citations...

"In speculative large extra dimension theories, CERN's Large Hadron Collider may be able to create micro black holes and observe their evaporation.[2][3][4][5]"
« Last Edit: January 30, 2009, 10:09:01 AM by Mike Irwin »
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Manedwolf

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Re: CERN Black Hole maybe not so benign?
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2009, 10:09:02 AM »
The physics that work for a massive black hole should also parallel a mini black hole. At least that's my understanding. So, theoretically, a mini black hole should be able to emit radiation... I think.

I think that'd require that the black hole be sustained in a space with gases to fall into it, not an ultraclean vacuum. The x-ray bursts and the like are caused by matter falling into it, everything from interstellar hydrogen to entire nebulae and stars.

Imagine if a mountain were suddenly compressed to the size of the head of a pin before crossing the event horizon, all the atoms smashed as closely as possible, then atomic structure breaking down as well, smashed together, how much energy that would release. That's precisely what happens.

K Frame

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Re: CERN Black Hole maybe not so benign?
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2009, 10:10:47 AM »
See what I added to my message below.

Smaller black holes are predicted to emit even more Hawking Radiation.

And, while I certainly don't have a firm grasp on it, I don't believe that Hawking Radiation comes solely from a black hole sucking things up.
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Manedwolf

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Re: CERN Black Hole maybe not so benign?
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2009, 10:12:57 AM »
See what I added to my message below.

Smaller black holes are predicted to emit even more Hawking Radiation.

And, while I certainly don't have a firm grasp on it, I don't believe that Hawking Radiation comes solely from a black hole sucking things up.

Oh, Hawking radiation is different, yes. That's what would be detectable, because that's from the pair formation. X-ray and other spectra bursts are just matter releasing energy as it's smashed, falling into it.

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Re: CERN Black Hole maybe not so benign?
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2009, 10:15:00 AM »
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Harold Tuttle

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Re: CERN Black Hole maybe not so benign?
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2009, 10:16:05 AM »

What if opening black holes attracts beings trapped in the 8th dimension?

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Re: CERN Black Hole maybe not so benign?
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2009, 10:17:25 AM »
A CERN black hole certainly could not be any worse than the black hole which already exists between Virginia and Maryland.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: CERN Black Hole maybe not so benign?
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2009, 10:19:46 AM »
Why should Hawking Radiation be detectable?

And where does this assumption come from that Hawking Radiation predominantly ends up with the "negative" particle causing loss to a black hole, while the "positive" particle causes a net energy gain to the universe?

Seems to me (being the great physicist that I am) that you've got a 50/50 chance of getting the neg or pos from the Hawking Radiation going either way.  Considering no one has documented the existence of Hawking Radiation, we're just running on the assumption that black holes dissipate rather than accrete in perpetuity.

And since it's "virtual" energy, it should be about as real as the girlfriends of Gewhere98's basement-dwelling WarCrackheads.  Which makes the reciprocal mass loss in the black hole every bit as "virtual."
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K Frame

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Re: CERN Black Hole maybe not so benign?
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2009, 10:23:53 AM »
Ask Stephen Hawking.

We're at the end of my knowledge, and I even read a Brief History of Time.

Twice.  :laugh:
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: CERN Black Hole maybe not so benign?
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2009, 10:25:09 AM »
Quote from: The great and powerful Wikipedia re: Hawking Radiation
The power in the Hawking radiation from a solar mass black hole turns out to be a minuscule 9 × 10−29 watts.

So, a subatomic black hole will emit next to nothing, but be created with a gigantic amount of energy.

Who's to say that Hawking Radiation is even possible in close proximity with other mass, such as an atmosphere or the center of a mountain?  Perhaps it can't "come into existence" due to interference from surrounding atoms unless in perfect vacuum.  After all, it should be observable otherwise.
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K Frame

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Re: CERN Black Hole maybe not so benign?
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2009, 10:26:58 AM »
Perhaps it also requires a shielding fence of zombies to help it form...

Hawking and others are the ones who have done the physics. I figure they're comfortable with their theories.
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zahc

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Re: CERN Black Hole maybe not so benign?
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2009, 10:40:40 AM »
The funniest anti-LHC argument I've found is some brilliant statistcians that pointed out that, although the calculations indicate something like 10^-15 chance of TEOTWAWKI, since about 1 in 1000 particle physics papers is revoked due to error, there is a much larger chance of TEOTWAWKI, regardless of the calculations themselves, since the numbers they come up with are only of worth if the arguments used to find them are valid. Thus they took the average risk number of the scientists and combined it with the failure rate of particle physics papers and got a much higher number like 10^-4 or something.
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AJ Dual

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Re: CERN Black Hole maybe not so benign?
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2009, 10:58:19 AM »
At the subatomic scale, there is a constant background "static" of random quantum fluctuations producing particles. On the larger atomic and macro scale, the random particle-antiparticle pairs cancel each other out.

The existence of this background quantum energy sea that permeates space-time has been proven by direct observation. Namely in the Casimir effect, but it also creates detectable noise in certain other very sensitive scientific insturments and has to be taken into account when taking measurments.

The reason smaller quantum black holes give off Hawking radiation faster, and evaporate faster is that the event horizon of a black hole cuts apart the neutral potential of the quantum particle antiparticle pairs, and the smaller the black hole, the smaller the Event Horizon is, and the smaller it is, the more of these quantum fluctuations it cuts through producing "real" particles. General and Special relativity does not allow for violations of conservation of mass-energy E=mc^2. So the black hole has to lose some mass in the transaction. And the now real energy expresses itself as efficiently as possible, which means it produces a high-frequency gamma photon.

Even with the new findings, getting one of these black holes to grow is nearly impossible. It still only has an overall gravitational pull of it's mass which is less than an atom's. It's only real dangerous attribute is the gravitational gradient is still incredibly deep, but another particle has to touch the event horizon to get "eaten". And at that scale you're dealing with quantum motion, tunneling, uncertaintly etc. it's not a bunch of Newtonian billiard-balls in which we use to try and visualize these phenomena.

And it's only "nearly" impossible in a mathematical sense. In real human timescales it is effectively impossible. Running the LHC at full tilt until the sun burns out. On a more human-scale analogy, it's kind of like having a slippery little guppy that swims at Mach6, and if you don't somehow stuff a whole watermellon in it's mouth every second, it'll die.

Well, now the physicists have come back and said. "Well, now maybe you've got ten seconds to feed that guppy a watermellon."  =D

And Hawking radiation in nature isn't very observable in practical terms, because the large black holes in space that we can find, the x-rays and other EM of the infalling matter would overwhelm it, and as we've discussed, the big ones give off less Hawking radiation. And IF there are any "natural" quantum black holes, their overall gravity well is infestimal, so it's not pulling in any matter to tell us to give off the signs that "There be a black hole here". etc.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2009, 11:02:35 AM by AJ Dual »
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Dntsycnt

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Re: CERN Black Hole maybe not so benign?
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2009, 12:45:22 PM »
It's still just as benign and the fear mongering is still just as idiotic.

agricola

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Re: CERN Black Hole maybe not so benign?
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2009, 01:40:12 PM »
It's still just as benign and the fear mongering is still just as idiotic.

I do love how Fox imply that it was science and scientists that got the earth-around-the-sun, continental drift and rocks falling from the sky questions wrong.  I wonder why they didnt add evolution to that list?

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Re: CERN Black Hole maybe not so benign?
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2009, 01:44:00 PM »
AJ sounds correct, but I am no astrophysicist.  They don't even offer astrophysics classes in my program.   :mad:  Stupid budget education.

Anyways, I should add that conservation laws in general don't hold up in small time scales.  Uncertainty principles generally allow for violation of conservation of energy, but for very short time periods.    This wiki quote explains it pretty well.  
Quote
A state which only exists for a short time cannot have a definite energy. In order to have a definite energy, the frequency of the state needs to be accurately defined, and this requires the state to hang around for many cycles, the reciprocal of the required accuracy.

The LHC does not concern me in the least, nor does it concern any physicist that I personally know.  It is actually somewhat of a joke in the physics community about how crazy the general public is about this.  
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buzz_knox

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Re: CERN Black Hole maybe not so benign?
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2009, 04:14:28 PM »
I do love how Fox imply that it was science and scientists that got the earth-around-the-sun, continental drift and rocks falling from the sky questions wrong.  I wonder why they didnt add evolution to that list?

 =D :cool:

There were a lot of scientists who did buy into those facts.  We tend to focus on the (somewhat erroneous) view that the strictly religious folks were the only ones refusing to accept those ideas.  The reality is that the priesthood, philosophers, scientists, etc rejected many of those ideas as well.

280plus

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Re: CERN Black Hole maybe not so benign?
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2009, 04:49:41 PM »
We're screwed for sure...  :O

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Ryan in Maine

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Re: CERN Black Hole maybe not so benign?
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2009, 05:03:52 PM »
Doesn't a black hole have to be "loaded" before it becomes a threat?