Author Topic: CERN Black Hole maybe not so benign?  (Read 11261 times)

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: CERN Black Hole maybe not so benign?
« Reply #50 on: February 09, 2009, 02:10:54 AM »
and sufficient genetic diversity of people.

Just curious, but how many people might it take to constitute sufficient genetic diversity?

KD5NRH

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Re: CERN Black Hole maybe not so benign?
« Reply #51 on: February 09, 2009, 02:29:41 AM »
Just curious, but how many people might it take to constitute sufficient genetic diversity?

Depends on whose standards you use.  Mine, for example, could be met simply by me and the Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders, plus the last couple years' Playmate of the Month lineups.


AJ Dual

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Re: CERN Black Hole maybe not so benign?
« Reply #52 on: February 09, 2009, 09:08:36 AM »
So at what mass does a black hole become sustainable?  IOW, when does Hawking radiation of mass/energy away from it become less than mass/energy pouring into it?  I can't imagine the LHC being able to create that level of output.

Assuming Hawking radiation is true, there is no "sustainable" black black hole mass, at least in absolute terms. But you're correct. the LHC might be able to produce momentary sub-atomic mass black holes. The entire energy output of Human civilization for several years wouldn't be enough to make a big multi-ton hole. And the collider machinery would probably have to be orbital in scale. Anything built on Earth might not be big or long enough.

All of them "evaporate" through Hawking radiation. However the larger and more massive they are, the slower they evaporate. Stellar sized holes on up would last billions, maybe trillions, quadrillions of years past the cold black "heat death" of the Universe, assuming the it's expanding forever.

What you really mean is "how large" (massive) must a black hole be for it to last a meaningful duration on a human timescale and start making us worry if we uh... "dropped it"? Probably at least a few tons in mass. But it would be hellishly radioactive, the virtual particles of Hawking radiation becoming "real" are expressed as intense gamma radiation.

Even if you could make a multi-ton black hole in an Earth-bound lab, the horrendous gamma radiation from the Hawking radiation might be vaporizing matter surrounding it into plasma. Could reduce the efficiency with which it can eat more mass if all the black hole was grabbing was hot plasma and not solid matter. Even a multi-ton black hole would have an event horizon that's a single atom in size.

I'm not any kind of physicist, and I haven't a clue if it would eat faster than it could radiate even if it fell into the Earth.

The problem with such a "large" multi-ton quantum singularity is that it's a nasty catch-22. If a micro black hole "starves" the Hawking radiation reaches exponential growth as the black hole loses mass in a feedback loop, because the smaller the event horizon, the more efficiently it radiates away it's mass as Hawking radiation. It ends as a gamma ray "burster" which would probably destroy the Earth, or at least leave much of it mostly molten.

If you keep "feeding" it, it gets bigger, that's not good if it's on the Earth either.

Just curious, but how many people might it take to constitute sufficient genetic diversity?

There's no set number.

It matters more what the acceptable rate of incest, genetic defects, and stillbirths, and birth defects is to your group. And what level of medical technology and scientific knowledge the group is able to maintain.

If you start with a group that was both diverse, and screened genetically as well as possible, and they have access to a qualified geneticist each generation, and everyone's okay with each woman bearing multiple children from different men... And maybe you use IVF technology and perform embryo screening etc. You could probably make it on 200-500 people. Although after just a few generations, the group might start to look "a little funny" and might not even out to something like an Earth-like spread for thousands of years.

IIRC, the human matrilineal mitochondrial DNA record suggests that humanity, or our precursors were winnowed down to just a handful of fertile women at more than once in the stone age and pre-stone age. So it's do-able with less, but the infant mortality rate and exiled individuals left to die etc. must have been horrendous. And it may not have been possible at any time before the invention of agriculture, where the winnowing effect on humanity began to ease.

I think the number to "make it" with no extreme measures, allowing people to pair up into traditional families is somewhere north of 2000 people. Maybe 3500 to be safe. The Amish are often studied to see what happens in that kind of situation. They have limited access to outbreeding, and it's made worse by the fact people leave the fold, but rarely, if ever, do outsiders convert and join their ranks.

They have a higher incidence of certain genetic diseases and birth defects than the population at large, but it's not enough to do them in.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 09:31:02 AM by AJ Dual »
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Harold Tuttle

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Re: CERN Black Hole maybe not so benign?
« Reply #53 on: February 09, 2009, 03:59:25 PM »
all i need is this lunchbox:
« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 08:13:14 PM by Harold Tuttle »
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Gewehr98

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Re: CERN Black Hole maybe not so benign?
« Reply #54 on: February 09, 2009, 04:24:12 PM »
Lunchbox = Red "X"   :| 
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seeker_two

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Re: CERN Black Hole maybe not so benign?
« Reply #55 on: February 09, 2009, 04:28:26 PM »
Lunchbox = Red "X"   :| 

Apparently, we can't have Harold's lunchbox either.....  =|
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Gewehr98

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Re: CERN Black Hole maybe not so benign?
« Reply #56 on: February 09, 2009, 04:33:52 PM »
Not going there.
"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

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Werewolf

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Re: CERN Black Hole maybe not so benign?
« Reply #57 on: February 09, 2009, 04:54:57 PM »
Just curious, but how many people might it take to constitute sufficient genetic diversity?
I vaguely remember from college biology, many, many moons ago that the answer to that question re: humans, is 30 non-related adults. The mix can vary but in general a 50/50 male/female mix was optimum.

Geneticists have hypothesized that after the Tambora(sp?) super volcano went off 70,000 years ago tha the breeding human population left was between 100 and 2000 individuals from whom the whole of the 6 billion alive today sprung.
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AJ Dual

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Re: CERN Black Hole maybe not so benign?
« Reply #58 on: February 09, 2009, 05:02:25 PM »
I vaguely remember from college biology, many, many moons ago that the answer to that question re: humans, is 30 non-related adults. The mix can vary but in general a 50/50 male/female mix was optimum.

Geneticists have hypothesized that after the Tambora(sp?) super volcano went off 70,000 years ago tha the breeding human population left was between 100 and 2000 individuals from whom the whole of the 6 billion alive today sprung.

Thirty would look nasty after just a few generations.  =|
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Werewolf

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Re: CERN Black Hole maybe not so benign?
« Reply #59 on: February 09, 2009, 06:24:14 PM »
Thirty would look nasty after just a few generations.  =|

Keyword for the 30: UNRELATED

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AJ Dual

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Re: CERN Black Hole maybe not so benign?
« Reply #60 on: February 09, 2009, 10:42:36 PM »
Keyword for the 30: UNRELATED

We're not talking Hillbilly Heaven here where just 2 families started a town.

I know, but facial features reinforce etc.  =|

I suppose if you chose really widely for your 30, all over the Earth, they'd all even out to something looking vaguely Polynesian/Pacific Islander, and possibly plesant looking.

Perhaps it does not matter, after one generation, those stuck on "life raft Earth" wouldn't know any better unless they watched archival video or pictures obsessively.
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Antibubba

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Re: CERN Black Hole maybe not so benign?
« Reply #61 on: February 10, 2009, 02:42:39 AM »
Quote
But it would be hellishly radioactive, the virtual particles of Hawking radiation becoming "real" are expressed as intense gamma radiation.

Why gamma radiation?  Is it because, being smaller than even the most elemental particle, it can't express as anything larger than a photon (which I understand is not measurable in a "size" sense)?  And where does this radiation "express" in the first place?  It has to be outside the event horizon.  But is there a range inside which it must appear?  For that matter, given the weirdness of a singularity, would the radiation have to appear near the black hole at all?  Why not elsewhere in the universe?
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AJ Dual

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Re: CERN Black Hole maybe not so benign?
« Reply #62 on: February 10, 2009, 08:53:37 AM »
Why gamma radiation?  Is it because, being smaller than even the most elemental particle, it can't express as anything larger than a photon (which I understand is not measurable in a "size" sense)?  And where does this radiation "express" in the first place?  It has to be outside the event horizon.  But is there a range inside which it must appear?  For that matter, given the weirdness of a singularity, would the radiation have to appear near the black hole at all?  Why not elsewhere in the universe?


Hawking radiation is expressed as high frequency gamma radiation because all photons have the same mass and have the same velocity, the speed of light a.k.a. c. Since they can't go faster, they can only express extra energy through frequency. So a high energy gamma photon is the most efficient way for the energy of virtual partical pairs being split to become "real". There is also wavelength compression from coming out into existance so close to the event horizon, and compressed wavelength = higher frequency. At one point, the math dictates the photon has an infinite frequency, which isn't really possible, so (maybe? I'm unclear on this...) instead of infinite frequency, the photon expresses at the highest gamma frequency possible.

The radiation comes right at the edge of the event horizon where it's intersecting the virtual particle/antiparticle pairs. They're "virtual" particle/antiparticle pairs because their potential normally cancels each other out and there is no net energy on the macro scale. If you can kidnap away one of the particles, it's suddenly "real" because it's antiparticle mate can't cancel it out. This happens when a pair emerges from the quantum background "sea" that permeates everything, and one of the pair is outside the event horizon and escapes, and the other is too close, and is sucked into the singularity. Since the now "real" gamma photon escaped, it's twin must be negative energy, which means that the singularity just lost a teeny bit of mass/energy and the black hole 'evaporated' just a little bit.

The other way to look at it is, a black hole is "black" and a point of no return because it's a region of space where it's gravitational pull is so strong, the escape velocity is higher than the speed of light. The event horizon is the region where that condition is reached. It's not really like a "skin" or whatnot. An unlucky spaceship that was inside a sufficiently large black hole's event horizon (so tidal forces don't "spaghetti" them" right away.) would still be able to see the rest of the universe as they looked outward, because the infalling light would still be showing it to them. Although everything would look rather squashed and blue-shifted. However, despite the fact they can see the outside universe still, there's no orbit or trajectory or amount of energy from their engines that can ever take them out again, so eventually into the singularity they'll go.

The one thing that does exceed the speed of light is quantum tunneling. Which in a simplistic way of explaining is the way on the quantum scale particles can go, "bip! Hey! I'm over here!... bop! Hee hee! Now I'm over here!" instantaneously. So Hawking radiation can also be thought of as particles that quantum tunneled past the event horizon.

The radiation does not appear elsewhere in the universe as far as we know because it's the event horizon that's creating it.

However, the quantum background sea that the event horizon "cuts" is already everywhere. And it is actually detectable through various scientific experiments. Mainly the Casimir effect, where the quantum background noise/radiation is detectable between two parallel plates suspended in a vaccuum, or as "static" or noise in certain kinds of very sensitive scientific insturments.

The wiki on Hawking Radiation is pretty good. There's enough English in there that you can kind of skim over all the funny Greek letters and math and get a sense of what it means. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawking_radiation   =D
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 09:01:09 AM by AJ Dual »
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