67 Year Old Going to Prison for Cold War Weapons Cache

[Lee]

This really tick me off.  I should pay more attention to auctions.

[freakazoid]

Here's an article about the little "incident": http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,135999,00.html

Oh, so it was a sting. Interesting note on that, they paid $700,000 for 2,000 AKs, that's only $350 per AK! And ye we have to pay many many thousands of dollars to own them legally.

[Hawkmoon]

"The bottom line is people simply should not have these things and that's why we have laws against them."

Reality check for Judge Struve: Them thangs are what are called "arms," and the 2nd Amendment of the Constitution says "the People" (which generally includes mild-mannered court reporters) have a right to keep and bear "arms." Sorry, Judge, but your bottom line laws are contrary to the letter and the intent of the Constitution.

[freedom lover]

First of all let me say I don't have a problem with civilians owning explosives and machine guns. If it was up to me everything up to 155mm would be legal.

My problem is with how the guy got the stuff. He either collaberated with organized crime rings or corrupt soldiers. That essentially means he stole weapons from the military. He stole them from taxpayers!. Hell, if he was just a slightly crazy survivalist who bought 40 AKs from the Mexican Mafia and I was on the jury I would push for aquittal. In effect he stole from my ancestors and helped in corrupting soldiers. The second amendment has nothing to do with this. He should have been punished to the fullest extent of the law.   

As for risk? I know Russian grenade fuses go bad, but they won't explode unless the spoon comes off. I don't know about C4 and 40mm fuses/detonators.

[MicroBalrog]

In my view - and I apologize in advance for offending those whom it may offend - if the law didn't deny him the opportunity to purchase these arms legally, he wouldn't need to steal them from the taxpayers.

[freedom lover]

In my view - and I apologize in advance for offending those whom it may offend - if the law didn't deny him the opportunity to purchase these arms legally, he wouldn't need to steal them from the taxpayers.

The motive doesn't change the fact that he stole from taxpayers and must be punished for it. Maybe if America was different editorialists and senators would  use this as an opportunity tospeak up about the right and reasons to bear arms. I know one thing. This isn't much differen't than breaking into my father's house and stealing his money and guns. Burglers should be killed and all theives should be punished.

[MicroBalrog]

I do not wish to derail this thread altogether, but I will only point out we don't know where the guns in question came from.

"Seeing that we hardly pay our conscripts, the attitude from the conscripts seems to be "We'll quit stealing when they start paying us atleast minimum wage!"

Ha, Viking. Your country sounds a lot like mine. Although in Israel, something being nailed down is no stop to conscripts stealing it. I know of an incident where people stole bars off a window.

[Viking]

The motive doesn't change the fact that he stole from taxpayers and must be punished for it. Maybe if America was different editorialists and senators would  use this as an opportunity tospeak up about the right and reasons to bear arms. I know one thing. This isn't much differen't than breaking into my father's house and stealing his money and guns. Burglers should be killed and all theives should be punished.

I know it's a long shot, but all of those weapons are of the sort that could've been written off as either lost, or they were never in the system to begin with because they had been given to say the South Vietnamese, and some GI got hold of an extra M-16 and a blooper before the fall of Saigon, and decided to bring them back with him. The AK-47 on the table is most likely a bring-back, probably from Vietnam, the MP-40 and the other German SMG could be from anywhere from WW2 to Vietnam, the Swedish K SMG is probably from the Vietnam era, the BAR could be something that just never got registered when the NFA got into effect. As for the FAL's, AFAIK they were never issued so where they came from is something to ponder.

[HankB]

Then one day he failed to pay the bill on the Bellevue locker. Someone bought the contents at auction. Struve's secret was out.

The way my luck runs, if I bought the contents of an abandoned/unpaid storage locker, it wouldn't turn out to be full of munitions - the best I'd wind up with would be boxes and boxes of disposable baby diapers.

Used, of course.

(Although personally, I really would want nothing to do with aging high explosives, old dynamite, etc.)

[Viking]

I do not wish to derail this thread altogether, but I will only point out we don't know where the guns in question came from.

Ha, Viking. Your country sounds a lot like mine. Although in Israel, something being nailed down is no stop to conscripts stealing it. I know of an incident where people stole bars off a window.

The "rules" seems to be that you don't steal stuff unless it's consumption goods, the stuff that gets used up quickly, like ammo, grenades, explosives, detcord and also uniforms, boots and underwear. Then we have the people who decide they want to keep their NVG's, or some other expensive piece of kit.
Then there are those who won't be happy with the small stuff. I've heard of motorcycles dissappearing mysteriously just after they were delivered...
Read a story told by a guy who spent part of his time at a facility where they destroy worn out weapons. He and his buddy made a habit of going through the scrap containers, an lo and behold, they found that the people who were supposedly destroying the weapons didn't do so with all of them. After a few months of rummaging through the containers, they had managed to find enough parts to build a full AK-4 rifle from them. They didn't get to keep it though .

Funniest story is one from my family though: One of my relatives did his military service about 40 years ago. One Friday when he was going home for the weekend, he brought something extra with him in his bag. A Swedish K SMG. And a shitload of ammo for it. He spent the weekend exterminating various pests at the farm he lived at. Then he reported in the following Monday, and the first thing he did was to hand in the SMG, the empty mags and the kit .

[MicroBalrog]

We had a unit NCO investigated on suspicion of "diverting" a truckload of whiteboards and corkboards.

And of course, computers, furniture, gas, shoewax, guns, grenade launchers, vehicles, laptops, and entire offices will disappear at irregular intervals. The Army once recovered a D-30 breech, 3 tank tracks, and 3 105mm tank barrels from a private house.

[BlueStarLizzard]

the only danger i can see is the one already pointed out. explosives that detererate over time and become unstable, making an accedent much more likely. well, that and if someone unscrupalus found the catch, it could have been used.

yes, he stole from the military, but i'm not going to get all fire and brimstone for that. i'm sure the statues of limitations would cover his theft (lawyers feel free to correct me if i'm way off on that one)

the thing that conserns me is the coury mandated phsyceatric counseling. it implies that anyone who worries about TSHTF is bonkers and anyone that choses to keep a errr.. arsonal on hand for what ever reason is a delusional fool.

which pretty much covers the majority on this board. which is not to say that we are all entirely sane, just that are weapons arn't the indicators of our insainity.  

[Viking]

We had a unit NCO investigated on suspicion of "diverting" a truckload of whiteboards and corkboards.

And of course, computers, furniture, gas, shoewax, guns, grenade launchers, vehicles, laptops, and entire offices will disappear at irregular intervals. The Army once recovered a D-30 breech, 3 tank tracks, and 3 105mm tank barrels from a private house.

And I thought it was bad stealing the odd motorcycle and a what must amount to a few hundred kilometers of detcord at this moment .
Guns you say? What's your standard issue assault rifle these days? Still use the Galil?

[freedom lover]

I know it's a long shot, but all of those weapons are of the sort that could've been written off as either lost, or they were never in the system to begin with because they had been given to say the South Vietnamese, and some GI got hold of an extra M-16 and a blooper before the fall of Saigon, and decided to bring them back with him. The AK-47 on the table is most likely a bring-back, probably from Vietnam, the MP-40 and the other German SMG could be from anywhere from WW2 to Vietnam, the Swedish K SMG is probably from the Vietnam era, the BAR could be something that just never got registered when the NFA got into effect. As for the FAL's, AFAIK they were never issued so where they came from is something to ponder.

You're right, it is possible, thoug unlikely. If you are right only the explosives were technically stolen. I feel like an ass I posted without looking at the link and other sites. I heard the words "37 machine guns" and "Vietnam War Era" and immediately assumed he had a bunch of M60's. The only guns I've seen are the ones on the table. The media often lies. I've never heard of ARVNs using suppressed M3's, but they did have at least one special forces group. I think you meant the K50M when you mentioned the "other German" subgun.

http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg109-e.htm

Funniest story is one from my family though: One of my relatives did his military service about 40 years ago. One Friday when he was going home for the weekend, he brought something extra with him in his bag. A Swedish K SMG. And a shitload of ammo for it. He spent the weekend exterminating various pests at the farm he lived at. Then he reported in the following Monday, and the first thing he did was to hand in the SMG, the empty mags and the kit .

Funny story. What did they do to him? Nothing?

Here's a link to more pics: http://www.spokesman.com/photosets/2009/jan/23/ronald-struve-arsenal/

[Viking]

You're right, it is possible, thoug unlikely. If you are right only the explosives were technically stolen. I feel like an ass I posted without looking at the link and other sites. I heard the words "37 machine guns" and "Vietnam War Era" and immediately assumed he had a bunch of M60's. The only guns I've seen are the ones on the table. The media often lies. I've never heard of ARVNs using suppressed M3's, but they did have at least one special forces group. I think you meant the K50M when you mentioned the "other German" subgun.

Well, I didn't see that he had a bunch of 40mm as well. Had it been handgrenades, well those you could probably make from inert/deactivated greneds should you want to. And AFAIK, back then explosives weren't controlled as they are today.

http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg109-e.htm

Yep, that's the one. I first figured it for a german SMG.

Funny story. What did they do to him? Nothing?

Not sure, but I guess nothing serious.
Different attitudes back in those days. Attitudes were more relaxed in certain ways. Guns were more available, same with explosives, considering all the little bunkers littering the countryside that were filled with weapons, explosives, uniforms, fuel and other things necessary to arm close to 1 million men in case the Russians showed up. I guess the logic were that it if we were prepared to fight against the Russian bear at a moments notice, all those minor things like the occasional storage bunker being emptied was a small price to pay.

[freedom lover]

Different attitudes back in those days. Attitudes were more relaxed in certain ways. Guns were more available, same with explosives, considering all the little bunkers littering the countryside that were filled with weapons, explosives, uniforms, fuel and other things necessary to arm close to 1 million men in case the Russians showed up. I guess the logic were that it if we were prepared to fight against the Russian bear at a moments notice, all those minor things like the occasional storage bunker being emptied was a small price to pay.

The Yugoslavians did something similar. Except they trained women too. They also planned to fight a guerilla war after the invasion was complete. I don't think they had many heavy weapons, so they obviously wouldn't be able to beat the Soviets at their own game. It would be interesting to talk to someone who lived through that era.

[Viking]

The Yugoslavians did something similar. Except they trained women too. They also planned to fight a guerilla war after the invasion was complete. I don't think they had many heavy weapons, so they obviously wouldn't be able to beat the Soviets at their own game. It would be interesting to talk to someone who lived through that era.

The Finns did. The Soviets came with 1 million men, 6500 tanks, 3800 aircrafts. The Finns had less than 350.000 men at best, 32 tanks and 114 aircrafts. The Soviets took a severe beating from that experience.

[freedom lover]

The Finns did. The Soviets came with 1 million men, 6500 tanks, 3800 aircrafts. The Finns had less than 350.000 men at best, 32 tanks and 114 aircrafts. The Soviets took a severe beating from that experience.

I'm aware of that. However, I doubt that anyone could beat the soviets in a conventional war without SAMs to shoot down the jets and fast attack aircraft. Holding a line against a highly mechanized and mobile force backed up by 1960's technology with small arms and a few aircraft is probably impossible. To attempt such a thing would be suicide.

[MicroBalrog]

If I found the guns, I would either contact the previous owner, or hide them in PVC tubes until the NFA is repealed, and then take them out and freely enjoy them.

[freedom lover]

If I found the guns, I would either contact the previous owner, or hide them in PVC tubes until the NFA is repealed, and then take them out and freely enjoy them.

What would you do if it turned out the former owner was in the mafia? I would immediately assume that if I accidentally bought a unit full of full-autos. They wouldn't like it if you hid it. I would probably put it in an unlocked car in the driveway and call him after locking the house. They would eventually find out I had it. If I hid it and they got to me first they would try to kill me.

[MicroBalrog]

That's true. I meant if I was not able to find the former owner.

[RoadKingLarry]

What strikes me about this story.

I need to start buying auctioned off storage lockers.

Where did this guy find this stuff? If I went a little off and decided I needed a few MG's and a bunch of C4 to repel the red/yellow/brown menace, I wouldn't have the first idea how to go about finding something like that.

Drop me a PM and I'll point you in the right direction. For educational and amusement purposes only of course 

[freakazoid]

My problem is with how the guy got the stuff. He either collaberated with organized crime rings or corrupt soldiers. That essentially means he stole weapons from the military. He stole them from taxpayers!.

If he got them from soldiers they were probably people he knew, in which case they weren't doing it for money. So while they might be "stealing" from taxpayers, really they weren't because it is pretty much going to the same purpose. And if anything he can take it from my contribution in tax money. There, now he ain't stealing because I gave him permission, 

edit -

Here's a link to more pics: http://www.spokesman.com/photosets/2009/jan/23/ronald-struve-arsenal/

On page six of those pictures what are the blue ball things?

edit edit - Also, on page six, is it just me or do those rounds look like they have been made inert? It looks like they have had holes drilled in the side of them, or is that something else?

[MicroBalrog]

I believe this shade of blue is used in the IDF [and, I assume, in the US military too] to denote inert training rounds.

[Gewehr98]

The Norinco/Polytech AK incident was driven by the fact that the AKs weren't semi-auto.  They were "kind of" semi-auto, but were configured so that Da Switch could be more easily installed.  I won't go into the mechanics of it, one can google the difference between a full-auto AK receiver and a semi-auto AK receiver.  Granted, damned near anything can be converted from semi-auto to full-auto given enough time and effort, but the BATF felt these guns were just a tad too easy to convert...