Author Topic: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT  (Read 11266 times)

Perd Hapley

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #75 on: November 10, 2006, 06:29:43 PM »
Yawn.  Brilliant cutting and pasting, Volt.   rolleyes  Do you have a point with all of that? 
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Volt

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #76 on: November 10, 2006, 06:51:40 PM »
Yeah cut and paste, oh well just one more.

There is one book that I am looking for that is supposed to be absolutely excellent but I cant seem to find it. But I did stumble upon this one and it seems pretty interesting:

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbninquiry.asp?ean=9780060188771&pwb=1&z=y


The Conservative Soul: How We Lost It, How to Get It Back
by Andrew Sullivan
   
·   
·   What does it mean to be a conservative any more?
With the Iraq war, the rise of Christian fundamentalism, exploding government spending, soaring debt, insecure borders, and an executive branch with greater and greater power, Republicans and conservatives are debating this question with more and more urgency.
The contradictions keep mounting. Today's conservatives support the idea of limited government, but they have increased government's size, power and reach to new heights. They believe in balanced budgets, but they have boosted government spending, debt, and pork to record levels. They believe in individual liberty and the rule of law, but they have condoned torture, ignored laws passed by Congress, and been indicted for bribery. They have substituted religion for politics, and damaged both.
In The Conservative Soul, Andrew Sullivan, one of the nation's leading political commentators, makes an impassioned call to rescue conservatism from the corruption of the Republican far right, which has become the first fundamentally religious political party in America. Through an incisive look at the rise of Western fundamentalism, Sullivan argues that conservatives cannot in good conscience keep supporting a party that believes in its own God-given mission to change people's souls, instead of protecting their liberties. He carefully charts the arguments of the new conservatism, showing why they cannot work in today's America, why they fail the test of logic and pragmatism, and why they betray the conservative tradition from Edmund Burke to Ronald Reagan.
In this bold and powerful book, Andrew Sullivan criticizes our government for acting too often, too quickly, and too expensively. He champions a political philosophy based on skepticism and reason, rather than certainty and fundamentalism. He defends a Christianity that is sincere but not intolerant; and a politics that respects religion by keeping its distance. And he makes a provocative, heartfelt case for a revived conservatism at peace with the modern world, dedicated to restraining government and empowering individuals to live rich and fulfilling lives.

From The Critics
David Brooks
This is Sullivan at his wonderful best. The politics of principle. Not the politics of doubt.
&151; The New York Times
Publishers Weekly
As editor of the New Republic and on his blog The Daily Dish, Sullivan has been a major conservative voice in U.S. politics for 15 years. Now, he attempts "to account for what one individual person means by conservatism"-not repudiating his former political beliefs but trying to "rescue" modern U.S. political conservatism from "the current [Christian] fundamentalist supremacy" that now dominates it. Sullivan (Love Undetectable) has a breezy, readable style that allows him to address such diverse issues as religious fundamentalism's reliance on "the literal words of the Bible," the "excessive witch-hunt" surrounding Clinton, and the secular Enlightenment foundations of the Constitution. He's most approachable when he writes autobiographically through a critical lens-"Looking back I see this phase of my faith life as a temporary and neurotic reaction to a new and bewildering school environment." But that reflection is not as readily apparent when he makes sweeping pronouncements on politics ("post-modern discourse... opposed basic notions of Western freedom: of speech, of trade, of religion"). Much of the book is a meditation on his own evolving faith as a devout Catholic and will appeal most to readers interested in personal religious evolution. (Oct. 3) Copyright 2006 Reed Business Information.

Kirkus Reviews
True conservatism recoils from the fundamentalist obsession with virtue and natural law, but embraces a minimalist view of government that allows a maximum of economic and lifestyle liberty. This is the argument that Sullivan has long been refining on his popular blog, The Daily Dish, and in his numerous print columns and books (Virtually Normal, 1995, etc.). In this book, he deploys an interpretation of the philosophy of Michael Oakeshott to support his continuing effort to reconcile his Catholicism and Thatcherite conservatism with the normalization of homosexuality and, most of all, with the redefinition of marriage to include homosexual couples. Sullivan notes that government must be based neither on reactionary adherence to the past, nor on Thomist theories of natural law, but on doubt: specifically, on the Hobbesian disbelief that our neighbor can be trusted not to do us an injury in the absence of a public authority. (Oddly, liberty requires that we give our neighbor "the benefit of the doubt" and therefore civil equality.) Government has no business inculcating virtue in society, the author says. Rather, good conservative government will accommodate itself to the felt needs of the time, like Disraeli's support of the democratic franchise in 19th-century Britain and, as Sullivan would have it, gay marriage in 21st-century America. In order to reach these conclusions, the author devotes about half of this work to explaining why most people who call themselves conservatives are really fundamentalists, a class that stretches from Osama bin Laden, through the editorial offices of the better neoconservative journals, and up to the fundamentalists-in-chief, George W. Bush and BenedictXVI. What all these people have in common is the belief that they know the truth with a certainty that allows them to impose their views either by force or by a definition that can compel consciences. It's difficult to imagine the audience for this philosophy: Cultural revolutionaries can turn to franker polemics, while self-described conservatives will be unnerved by Sullivan's anti-foundationalism.

What People Are Saying
"Sets a standard for depth and subtlety of argument. . . . Everyone concerned will want to read what he has to say."
---The Wall Street Journal

Author Description
Andrew Sullivan is one of today's most provocative social and political commentators. An essayist for Time magazine, a columnist for the Sunday Times of London and senior editor at The New Republic, he is also the editor of "The Daily Dish," one of the most widely read political blogs on the web. He lives in Washington, D.C..

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Perd Hapley

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #77 on: November 10, 2006, 08:06:46 PM »
Volt, if you want to link to Amazon, that's just fine.  But this 800 pages of cutting and pasting is really not acceptable. 
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Antibubba

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #78 on: November 11, 2006, 10:00:45 AM »
Have to agree with fistful on that one. 
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Volt

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #79 on: November 12, 2006, 03:03:33 PM »
Yeah I should just abort the above post, but it just seems so immoral to kill it. Maybe some other forum will be willing to adopt it, raise it, and give it the love and respect it truly deserves.
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roo_ster

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #80 on: November 13, 2006, 04:51:35 AM »
Volt:

Citing Kevin Phillips & Andrew Sullivan as authoritative analysts of the Republican party & conservative movement is not going to win any arguments.

KP is liberals' favorite former conservative and current christophobe & AS is a gay marriage's Captain Ahab willing to destroy, lie, and betray others in his quest for queer matrimony and online, aononymous sex.
Regards,

roo_ster

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Volt

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #81 on: November 14, 2006, 07:57:54 AM »
The Republican machine can straighten itself out or go out of business.

By looking the other way on what this entire Bush crowd has been doing and not been doing, we are setting ourselves up for our own destruction.

These jerks went off and did a bunch of stuff that was either opposite of what people thought they were going to do or they sat on their hands and did nothing on a lot of things.

This thread also illustrates the less than strong cohesion that exist between the religious right as typified by Fistfull of Dollars and the personal liberty/free economics side of the Republican Party as typified by myself.

I know that a great many of those that consider themselves (or used to consider themselves) Republican based on free economics theory are quite uncomfortable sharing the same platform with fundamentals Christians with whom they see as being dangerous and frankly half nuts.

You have many people out there who understand that Adam Smith trumps Marx but yet they will not go near the Republican Party because they see that the Republican talk economic freedom but then spend and borrow and manipulate the laws and taxes to protect their Mercantilist interest. 

If the Republican Party were to get itself straight on the economic side and if the Republican Party were to understand freedom, then the Republican Party will grow strong.  I do not see that happening and I see the party ceding to the religious right and the Rockefeller/Bush elitist.
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Ron

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #82 on: November 14, 2006, 01:40:00 PM »
I am amused by the so called Republicans who bitch about the religious right.

I guess you are longing for all the success and influence the Republicans had pre-Reagan.

Oh for the days of price controls and President Nixon who spouted the famous "we're all Keynesians now".

Got news for ya buddy, neither Bush is/was a conservative and all they have done is throw the religious right an occasional bone.

Our present Presidents economic policies are a perfect example of the statist big government country club Republicans policies, they are the ones that despised President Reagan(who is adored by the the so called religious right).

Ron

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #83 on: November 14, 2006, 01:51:50 PM »
Quote
Where you coming from, Ron?  I live near Saint Louis, and went down to Chapman for an NRA course a couple of years ago.  Are you taking a formal class there?

My trainer who runs our practical pistol shoots was an instructor there for years when Chapman was still around. Every year he brings a group down there for advanced training otherwise known as BIG FUN  grin.

Had a blast and the folks there were great hosts. Spent eight hours a day Fri and Sat shooting and half a day Sunday.

 

Perd Hapley

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #84 on: November 14, 2006, 02:21:07 PM »
Quote
This thread also illustrates the less than strong cohesion that exist between the religious right as typified by Fistfull of Dollars and the personal liberty/free economics side of the Republican Party as typified by myself.

I know that a great many of those that consider themselves (or used to consider themselves) Republican based on free economics theory are quite uncomfortable sharing the same platform with fundamentals Christians with whom they see as being dangerous and frankly half nuts.
Ironically, I am often uncomfortable and downright frightened by the uber-rationalist mindset of the hyper-libertarian who reasons himself into madness and murder.  But let us not think that such rhetoric passes for substance.

I am perfectly satisfied to "typify" the religious right, which on some issues are the only group reliably on the side of sanity, calm, reason and compassion.  Of course, some of them agree with me for perfectly nutty reasons that I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole.  I say all that to get to this point.  As you have selected me as your Representative of the Dangerous and Half-nuts Religious Right, please quote some of my dangerous nuttiness on issues like abortion, homosexual marriage, stem cell research, or anywhere else that you think I'm talking like a religious nut. 
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Volt

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #85 on: November 14, 2006, 08:46:49 PM »
Fistful of Dollars I don't think you're a nut (or half a nut). But with your calling me a supporter of murder you are sounding maybe a just a tiny bit scary.  I do have friends who see those with your views as pretty nuts and they are quite passionate in their opinion and will not ever consider the Republican Party despite their strong opposition to socialism. I do however respect you Fistful in that I know that your beliefs are sincere as are mine. 

And Ron Buddy you are right in that all the Bush/Nixon/Rockefeller elitist crowd were a bunch a fakes that used the religious right for their own purposes and come election time they toss the ole Pentecostals a bone to turn them out for the vote. And as I said, you have many people out there who understand that Adam Smith trumps Marx but yet they will not go near the Republican Party because they see that the Republican talk economic freedom but then spend and borrow and manipulate the laws and taxes to protect their Mercantilist interest. 

Furthermore I also wrote: If the Republican Party were to get itself straight on the economic side and if the Republican Party were to understand freedom, then the Republican Party will grow strong.  I do not see that happening and I see the party ceding to the religious right and the Rockefeller/Bush elitist.

You know the interesting thing is that Fistful of Dollars, Ron, and myself are all fellow Midwestern gun nuts and here we are divided and as divided we are weakened. I will try to tolerate the religious right (oh but it is hard) but the Bush elitist fakes must be tossed out of the Republican Party. I don't see the Republicans pulling out of this nosedive without some very big house cleaning.

These sorts of conversations are occurring all over the country. Divided we will fall. We must find some common ground and we must toss out the fakes who profiteered from those who believed in them.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #86 on: November 14, 2006, 08:52:40 PM »
Thanks for the reply, but I do have one question.

Quote
But with your calling me a supporter of murder you are sounding maybe a just a tiny bit scary.
 I wasn't referring to you specifically, but to secular conservatives and libertarians in general.  I'm not sure where you fit in that scheme.  As far as murder goes, I was talking about abortion.  It shouldn't be  surprising or frightening to you that I say the pro-abortion side supports murder.  That is the central tenet of our position on the issue.  Were you not aware of that?  
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Volt

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #87 on: November 14, 2006, 09:22:03 PM »
And so now I leave at this thread. Let us hope that the saved will always have the freedom to pray for the lost. And that I the lost will always have the freedom to choose to hear those prayers.
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Ron

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #88 on: November 15, 2006, 03:40:22 AM »
My point was the rise of the Reagan revolution had a large component of the religious right in it as well as the take over of congress with the "contract with America".

It isn't the RR that has caused the Republicans to lose their way on spending or the borders. That is typical blue blood North Eastern liberal Republicanism.

The religious right generally believes in small government. Many are uncomfortable with any alliance to politics. 

Perd Hapley

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #89 on: November 15, 2006, 04:31:29 AM »
Ron is more or less correct.  There is no dichotomy between the Religious Right and the free market/small govt. 
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Antibubba

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Re: A WELL-EARNED KICK IN THE GUT
« Reply #90 on: November 15, 2006, 06:16:46 AM »
It seems that the taste of power has changed a few minds, because I haven't seen many calls for smaller govt.
If life gives you melons, you may be dyslexic.