Author Topic: Chavez completes his Hitlerian takeover of Venezuela...  (Read 11313 times)

doczinn

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Re: Chavez completes his Hitlerian takeover of Venezuela...
« Reply #50 on: February 04, 2007, 01:21:07 PM »
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If the Venezuelans vote for an authoritarian socialist egomaniac, then the Venezuelans should have to live with an authoritarian socialist egomaniac.
And those who didn't vote for him? Should their rights be forfeit as well?

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forward bases for Imperialism
Oh please. Where's the imperialism?
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SteveS

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Re: Chavez completes his Hitlerian takeover of Venezuela...
« Reply #51 on: February 04, 2007, 02:28:47 PM »
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Hundreds of Chavez supporters wearing red  the color of Venezuela's ruling party  gathered in the plaza, waving signs reading "Socialism is democracy,"

I'm wondering: Just how do you get people to honestly believe that and so wholeheartedly support such actions such as Chavez's?

I occasionally log on to an Irish BB.  They seem to love him over there, but it probably has more to do with Chavez thumbing his nose at the US, then any kind of support for his policies.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055034359
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glockfan.45

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Re: Chavez completes his Hitlerian takeover of Venezuela...
« Reply #52 on: February 04, 2007, 08:37:22 PM »
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And those who didn't vote for him? Should their rights be forfeit as well?

And when did it become the responsibility of the U.S to defend the minority voters in a foreign nation?

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Do you wait for the gangrene to spread before treating it? Why is the assassination of "a legitimate leader of a sovereign state" a bad thing if it serves our national interests?

Analogies are good for explaining technical things in laymans terms, not for defining foreign policy. If you recall Reagan put an end to state sponsored assasinations of government officials. If we are indeed a nation of laws then we will respect our own laws in regards of this matter.

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Wait a minute.  Wiretapping and secret courts are bad?

Lenin had a name for the supporters of the communist revolution "useful idiots". I wonder what Bush calls his supporters.
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doczinn

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Re: Chavez completes his Hitlerian takeover of Venezuela...
« Reply #53 on: February 04, 2007, 08:41:45 PM »
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And when did it become the responsibility of the U.S to defend the minority voters in a foreign nation?
I realized after I posted that that it would seem like I'm in favor of US military intervention in Venezuela. I'm not. I was just addressing the sentiment that "they," meaning all Venezuelans, got what they deserved because "they," meaning some Venezuelans, voted for that idiot.
D. R. ZINN

Perd Hapley

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Re: Chavez completes his Hitlerian takeover of Venezuela...
« Reply #54 on: February 04, 2007, 08:46:46 PM »
The prohibition against assassination makes sense only from a pragmatic point of view.  We should not be too eager to use assassination, as it is often not a viable solution.  However, it is hardly less moral to kill the man responsible for a nation's foreign policy than to kill the soldiers who work for him and have little say in whether that nation threatens us. 
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glockfan.45

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Re: Chavez completes his Hitlerian takeover of Venezuela...
« Reply #55 on: February 04, 2007, 09:18:34 PM »
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However, it is hardly less moral to kill the man responsible for a nation's foreign policy than to kill the soldiers who work for him and have little say in whether that nation threatens us. 

or to paraphrase "wouldnt it be great if wars could be fought between the a**holes that start them?"
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Chavez completes his Hitlerian takeover of Venezuela...
« Reply #56 on: February 05, 2007, 02:28:02 AM »
Yeah, pretty much. 
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The Rabbi

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Re: Chavez completes his Hitlerian takeover of Venezuela...
« Reply #57 on: February 05, 2007, 03:31:32 AM »
The prohibition against assassination makes sense only from a pragmatic point of view.  We should not be too eager to use assassination, as it is often not a viable solution.  However, it is hardly less moral to kill the man responsible for a nation's foreign policy than to kill the soldiers who work for him and have little say in whether that nation threatens us. 

Actually it makes no sense from a pragmatic point of view.  If X is causing you trouble, then the logical solution is to get rid of X.  Israel has used targeted assasinations for the last few years and it has worked great.  Terrorism is down and collateral damage has been limited.
It does make sense from a political POV, somehow making us look moral.  But I dont think the rest of the world is giving us kudos.
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roo_ster

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Re: Chavez completes his Hitlerian takeover of Venezuela...
« Reply #58 on: February 05, 2007, 05:09:43 AM »
The Venezuela legislature just granted him power to rule by decree for 18 months.

Yeah, right. I bet he's still there 18 years from now.

To give due credit, Chavez was elected by a landslide in December.  The Nazi party never had gotten a majority in any election, and Hitler was appointed Chancellor by Hindenburg.  Ergo, it was not a "Hitlerian takeover".

Sorry to nitpick, but way too many people make Hitler/WWII analogies that frankly are awfully inaccurate. That said, "rule by decree" does have dictatorial overtones that can't be ignored.  Politicians are loath to give up power of their own accord.
I would be a bit more circumspect when claiming that Chavez was elected "by a landslide."  The Carter Center "certified" the election as good-to-go, but some of the facts point in another direction:
1. The elections were tabulated on Diebold machines.
2. All vote data was brought to a central location to be tabulated by those diebold machines.
3. No observers outside the Venezuela gov't were allowed in to observe the central tabulation facility.  This prohibition included the Carter Center flunkies, who never went inside the place.

So, Chavez controlled who counted the votes.

BTW, the election results did not jibe with exit polling done by the Carter flunkies or other observer groups.

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roo_ster

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Chavez completes his Hitlerian takeover of Venezuela...
« Reply #59 on: February 05, 2007, 05:57:21 AM »
The prohibition against assassination makes sense only from a pragmatic point of view.  We should not be too eager to use assassination, as it is often not a viable solution.  However, it is hardly less moral to kill the man responsible for a nation's foreign policy than to kill the soldiers who work for him and have little say in whether that nation threatens us. 

Actually it makes no sense from a pragmatic point of view.  If X is causing you trouble, then the logical solution is to get rid of X.  Israel has used targeted assasinations for the last few years and it has worked great.  Terrorism is down and collateral damage has been limited.
It does make sense from a political POV, somehow making us look moral.  But I dont think the rest of the world is giving us kudos.


Fair enough.  I don't claim to know how well it works in various situations, I'm just baffled by this moral disapproval so many seem to exhibit.  As if assassinating an international bad actor is somehow no different than assassinating MLK.  Maybe we should just use words like kill or decapitate, to avoid the negative connotation. 

My remark about pragmatism comes from my suspicion that assassination is too often not a real solution, and just results in another dictator filling the vacuum. 
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SteveS

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Re: Chavez completes his Hitlerian takeover of Venezuela...
« Reply #60 on: February 05, 2007, 06:47:08 AM »

My remark about pragmatism comes from my suspicion that assassination is too often not a real solution, and just results in another dictator filling the vacuum. 

This is certainly a legitimate concern.  I don't know that much about Venezuelan politics, but who is a likely successor to Chavez?
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Manedwolf

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Re: Chavez completes his Hitlerian takeover of Venezuela...
« Reply #61 on: February 05, 2007, 06:52:21 AM »
I think one of the most pragmatic aspects of NOT assassinating is in terms of a useful moral relevance.

If we assassinate leaders we don't like, we're opening the door for it to be "okay" for other nations to assassinate people THEY don't like. Leading by example. And there's an awful lot of people to who don't like Bush...if we assassinate another leader, we're pretty much saying it's okay to take a shot at him when he goes abroad, if it's a "legitimate tool"...because we use it.

Whereas if we do NOT use it, and simply use military force, we're saying by example that only that is okay. And what nation on earth has the military strength to even consider airstrikes on the sovereign US?

So, as a means of leading by example, it's saying that the tool that others CAN easily use is morally repugnant, but the tool others can NOT use (airstrikes, etc) is okay.

It keeps bullets out of our leaders' heads when they go abroad.


Perd Hapley

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Re: Chavez completes his Hitlerian takeover of Venezuela...
« Reply #62 on: February 05, 2007, 07:50:41 AM »
Leaders "we don't like"?  Is anyone proposing that we assassinate people because we don't like them?  I think the justification has something more to do with national interest.  I don't think that's the same thing.

No matter.  You're saying that Iran or Venezuela or whoever have failed to assassinate Bush because they would lose the moral high ground?  That's absurd.  Killing Bush would be enough to make you an international hero, in many circles.  Bin Laden would have nothing on you.  And you're still drawing a non-existent distinction between killing leaders and killing soldiers.  Both are acts of war.  If Iran can't afford to do one, they can't do the other.   
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Chavez completes his Hitlerian takeover of Venezuela...
« Reply #63 on: February 05, 2007, 08:36:46 AM »
Killing leaders and killing soldiers is not considered the same by the target government.

Leaders are "assassinated", troops are executed, or killed by terrorists (Beirut, Mog, USS Cole, etc). 

The loss of the President, if it can be traced to a particular country, is likely to lead to retaliation or war.  The loss of private Schmuckatelli may or may not even cause a lawsuit.

Killing soldiers, pretty much uniformly worldwide (except Israelis), is "affordable".

Oh yeah, soldiers aren't surrounded by Secret Service and rings of security and their travel plans aren't classified.  They are much more available and vulnerable.
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Re: Chavez completes his Hitlerian takeover of Venezuela...
« Reply #64 on: February 05, 2007, 08:37:24 AM »
Yeah, the only reason no one has killed Bush yet is they can't afford to.  It certainly isn't from any moral qualm.
On the Venezualan elections, there was a protest movement against the way the deck was stacked and as a result 80% of Venezualans stayed home.  That's hardly a ringing endoresement.
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Iapetus

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Re: Chavez completes his Hitlerian takeover of Venezuela...
« Reply #65 on: February 05, 2007, 08:47:07 AM »
The prohibition against assassination makes sense only from a pragmatic point of view.  We should not be too eager to use assassination, as it is often not a viable solution.  However, it is hardly less moral to kill the man responsible for a nation's foreign policy than to kill the soldiers who work for him and have little say in whether that nation threatens us. 

Actually it makes no sense from a pragmatic point of view.  If X is causing you trouble, then the logical solution is to get rid of X.  Israel has used targeted assasinations for the last few years and it has worked great.  Terrorism is down and collateral damage has been limited.
It does make sense from a political POV, somehow making us look moral.  But I dont think the rest of the world is giving us kudos.


Fair enough.  I don't claim to know how well it works in various situations, I'm just baffled by this moral disapproval so many seem to exhibit.  As if assassinating an international bad actor is somehow no different than assassinating MLK.  Maybe we should just use words like kill or decapitate, to avoid the negative connotation. 

My remark about pragmatism comes from my suspicion that assassination is too often not a real solution, and just results in another dictator filling the vacuum. 

Actually, I admit I agree with that point in general.

IMO, assassinating the leader is morally preferable to killing large numbers of soldiers who may only be fighting because they are conscripted / defending their homeland / etc.


The issue I have with the proposed assassination of Chavez is not that its an assassination rather than some other act of war.  But that Venezuala/ Chavez has not done anything that would morally justify any such acts.


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My point is that nations do not have rights. 

Again, I agree.  Nations and states do not have rights.  The people that make them up do.  And just as I do not have a right to kill people who are acting like tossers and refusing to sell me stuff, the people who comprise my government and security services do not have a right to kill people who are acting like tossers and refusing to sell them stuff.


But what moral right do you have to declare war on another nation, when it has not made, threatened or is intending to make war on yours?


You've got to be a Libertarian with those views.

Gee, that hurts Wink 

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The moral right is that the U.S.'s primary responsibility is the welfare of its own citizens.  That welfare will suffer with the continued existence of someone who is obviously intent on doing us harm.  The U.S. has effected change throughout this hemisphere since the Monroe Doctrine, and getting rid of Chavez will be one more example.


I have the moral right to look out for my own welfare.  Including by using force against those who are attacking me, or clearly about to.  That doesn't give me the right to use force against someone who is doing neither, even if I could get some benefit from doing so.

Similarly, the US (and every other nation) has the moral right to look after the welfare of its citizens, including by using force against other nations/groups/individuals etc that attack them (or are about to).  But until someone, makes such an act of aggression, then I do not consider such premptive attacks morally justified.

And I'm sure it's not just libertarians who think that.

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Re: Chavez completes his Hitlerian takeover of Venezuela...
« Reply #66 on: February 05, 2007, 10:02:46 AM »


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The moral right is that the U.S.'s primary responsibility is the welfare of its own citizens.  That welfare will suffer with the continued existence of someone who is obviously intent on doing us harm.  The U.S. has effected change throughout this hemisphere since the Monroe Doctrine, and getting rid of Chavez will be one more example.


I have the moral right to look out for my own welfare.  Including by using force against those who are attacking me, or clearly about to.  That doesn't give me the right to use force against someone who is doing neither, even if I could get some benefit from doing so.

Similarly, the US (and every other nation) has the moral right to look after the welfare of its citizens, including by using force against other nations/groups/individuals etc that attack them (or are about to).  But until someone, makes such an act of aggression, then I do not consider such premptive attacks morally justified.

And I'm sure it's not just libertarians who think that.

No, liberal Democrats seem to think likewise.  Waiting until something bad happens seems like a poor policy move, in national politics as well as in personal life.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Chavez completes his Hitlerian takeover of Venezuela...
« Reply #67 on: February 05, 2007, 10:26:46 AM »
What's a tosser, anyway?
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RadioFreeSeaLab

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Re: Chavez completes his Hitlerian takeover of Venezuela...
« Reply #68 on: February 05, 2007, 10:45:30 AM »
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Tosser
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Literally, one who masturbates. Common usage typically refers to anyone of whom you have a low opinion.

cosine

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Re: Chavez completes his Hitlerian takeover of Venezuela...
« Reply #69 on: February 08, 2007, 12:23:25 PM »
Now, things like this have never happen in dictatorial regimes in the past, oh no, never before...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070208/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/venezuela_food_crunch
Andy

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Re: Chavez completes his Hitlerian takeover of Venezuela...
« Reply #70 on: February 08, 2007, 01:11:54 PM »
What's a tosser, anyway?

Generally implies someone who is an irritating, pathetic, contemptible, anti-social loser, etc.

Although given the literal meaning (as already mentioned), maybe I shouldn't have used it (Art's Grandma etc). Apologies if it was inappropriate language.

Ezekiel

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Re: Chavez completes his Hitlerian takeover of Venezuela...
« Reply #71 on: February 09, 2007, 03:09:04 AM »
I'm afraid it is going to get clusterfu** ugly in Venezuela.

I have visions of Cuba, during the first year of Castro: government seizure of property, rampant inflation, radical pro-government militias operating without controls, et al...
Zeke

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Re: Chavez completes his Hitlerian takeover of Venezuela...
« Reply #72 on: February 09, 2007, 03:41:51 AM »
We can only hope, Ezekiel.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Chavez completes his Hitlerian takeover of Venezuela...
« Reply #73 on: February 09, 2007, 03:43:03 AM »
Zeke, how could that even happen?  How would Bush extend his evil influence into Venezuela?  Goodness knows nothing can happen without his inolvement.   police
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Ezekiel

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Re: Chavez completes his Hitlerian takeover of Venezuela...
« Reply #74 on: February 09, 2007, 05:27:36 AM »
"I'm sure Senor Shrub is involved in some manner!"  Smiley

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