Author Topic: Egypt: What's happening?  (Read 34468 times)

S. Williamson

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Re: Egypt: What's happening?
« Reply #100 on: February 03, 2011, 11:33:15 PM »
So in your view, Africans can have freedom - Indonesian Muslims can have freedom - Latin Americans can have freedom - Germans can have freedom - and yet Arabs cannot?

What is magically wrong with Arabs that makes it impossible?
Not so much that Arabs "cannot," I think he means Arabs "will not."
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roo_ster

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Re: Egypt: What's happening?
« Reply #101 on: February 03, 2011, 11:47:40 PM »
So in your view, Africans can have freedom - Indonesian Muslims can have freedom - Latin Americans can have freedom - Germans can have freedom - and yet Arabs cannot?

What is magically wrong with Arabs that makes it impossible?

Sorry for smudging your theory with grubby reality.  I can be a right bastard that way.

Whether arabs can have freedom is an open question, because none of them have achieved it in the entire history of humanity.

Were I a betting man, I'd bet that there is some severe cultural defect that makes it a damnsite less likely for freedom to bloom in an Arab country than most anywhere else. 

Also, I notice some of your examples have "freedom."  In some cases that "freedom" involved "freedom for me, massacres and arson for Christians and pagans." Indonesian muslims being one such you tout as "having freedom."  Somehow, I think Freedom House is grading on a curve.
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roo_ster

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MicroBalrog

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Re: Egypt: What's happening?
« Reply #102 on: February 03, 2011, 11:59:29 PM »
Quote
Whether arabs can have freedom is an open question, because none of them have achieved it in the entire history of humanity.

Had an observer discussed this with relation to the French before about 1793, he could make the same observation.

Had an observer discussed this with relation to the Germans before about 1945, he could make - and indeed men made - the same observation.

And yet both nations now enjoy individual liberty.

Quote
Also, I notice some of your examples have "freedom."  In some cases that "freedom" involved "freedom for me, massacres and arson for Christians and pagans." Indonesian muslims being one such you tout as "having freedom."  Somehow, I think Freedom House is grading on a curve.

I dealt with that in my first post on the issue. Re-read it.
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De Selby

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Re: Egypt: What's happening?
« Reply #103 on: February 04, 2011, 12:23:55 AM »
The cultural theory about Arabs is amusing, considering that the traditional method of Arab governance is an elected leader who holds consultation on all major decisions of state.  There was no hereditary sovereignty, a disease which plagued Europe until the French revolution. 

Another amusing feature of this conversation is that it displays an obvious and common hatred of all things Arab-culture, supports dictatorship to get them to do what we want, and denies that they have any rights...yet there are surely some here who think Arabs don't like America because of it's religion or freedom.

Did we stop to consider that maybe they hate us because we hate them, deny that they have any rights, claim their culture is trash, and on top of it give billions in aid to dictators that oppress them? 
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

roo_ster

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Re: Egypt: What's happening?
« Reply #104 on: February 04, 2011, 01:04:47 AM »
DS:

Please, stop your histrionics and straw-man building. 

Neither the USA nor Israel existed during the traditional Arab fantasy-land epoch of happiness and light, consensual government and civil liberality.

During the existence of the USA & Israel, the arab countries have been variations on the tyrannical dictator theme.  Were we supposed to create a time machine so we could go back to the fairy-land arab countries and deal with them rather than actual arab leaders of the 20th & 21st centuries?

It has nothing to do with supporting Arab dictatorship to stymie arab liberality movements, because such movements promising liberality never existed outside of the class rooms and dorm rooms of western universities.  Every rival with any reasonable chance of overthrowing an arab dictator has produced yet another arab tyrant.  There have been numerous overthrows of arab government, but little change in the nature of arab governance.  Usually it boils down to some clan or tribe gaining supremacy over another.  Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Most folks in the West were blessedly ignorant of arab culture until the last few decades.  It took arab savages murdering and blowing the crap out of folks to get the West to pay attention.  The more one learns of arab culture, the less there is to admire and the more there is to despise, if one values a liberal order.

When the best educated arabs at their most prestigious universities toss teachers out of windows for blasphemy and go apey when another names a teddy bear after Mohamed, I'm thinking that the less-educated and less-refined arabs are not likely to be any more tolerant.  These defenestrators, the cream of the arab crop, don't (for some crazy reason) inspire awe & admiration from civilized folk. 

Yes, it must be our fault the arabs have such a bad reputation.


I dealt with that in my first post on the issue. Re-read it.

I read it the first time.  Enough caveats to make the Freedom House designation almost meaningless.  I do suspect FH was grading on a curve so that they cold get a country or two from every possible region, but the curve was so large for the arab countries that it did not pass the laugh test.



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roo_ster

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Battle Monkey of Zardoz

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Re: Egypt: What's happening?
« Reply #105 on: February 04, 2011, 01:06:26 AM »
Yep. It's all Americas fault. I'm sure Bush helped too. Hell, it's probably Americas fault that Germany flexed it's might in 38.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Egypt: What's happening?
« Reply #106 on: February 04, 2011, 01:06:53 AM »
Quote
I read it the first time.  Enough caveats to make the Freedom House designation almost meaningless.  I do suspect FH was grading on a curve so that they cold get a country or two from every possible region, but the curve was so large for the arab countries that it did not pass the laugh test.

Do you believe the US South in the 1960's was equally unfree as, say, Nazi Germany or modern Belarus?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

MicroBalrog

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Re: Egypt: What's happening?
« Reply #107 on: February 04, 2011, 09:52:31 AM »
http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/week-s-end/egypt-won-t-be-quick-to-give-muslim-brotherhood-a-chance-1.341210

Major opposition group has been largely absent from the uprising in Egypt, and it's unlikely to be leading the country anytime soon.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

longeyes

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Re: Egypt: What's happening?
« Reply #108 on: February 04, 2011, 10:28:16 AM »
What T.E. Lawrence had to say on Arab culture:

""Arabs could be swung on an idea as on a cord; for the unpledged allegiance of their minds made them obedient servants. None of them would escape the bond till success had come, and with it responsibility and duty and engagements. Then the idea was gone and the work ended--in ruins.
"Without a creed they could be taken to the four corners of the world (but not to heaven) by being shown the riches of earth and the pleasures of it; but if on the road, led in this fashion, they met the prophet of an idea, who had nowhere to lay his head and who depended for his food on charity or birds, then they would all leave their wealth for his inspiration.
"They were incorrigibly children of the idea, feckless and colour-blind, to whom body and spirit were for ever and inevitably opposed. Their mind was strange and dark, full of depressions and exaltations, lacking in rule, but with more of ardour and more fertile in belief than any other in the world. They were a people of starts, for whom the abstract was the strongest motive, the process of infinite courage and variety, and the end nothing.
"They were as unstable as water, and like water would perhaps finally prevail. Since the dawn of life, in successive waves they had been dashing themselves against the coasts of flesh. Each wave was broken, but, like the sea, wore away ever so little of the granite on which it failed, and some day, ages yet, might roll unchecked over the place where the material world had been, and God would move upon the face of those waters. One such wave (and not the least) I raised and rolled before the breath of an idea, till it reached its crest, and toppled over and fell at Damascus. The wash of that wave, thrown back by the resistance of vested things, will provide the matter of the following wave, when in fullness of time the sea shall be raised once more."
"Domari nolo."

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Egypt: What's happening?
« Reply #109 on: February 04, 2011, 11:02:55 AM »
THIS  same lawrence?
During the closing years of the war he sought, with mixed success, to convince his superiors in the British government that Arab independence was in their interests. The secret Sykes-Picot Agreement between France and Britain contradicted the promises of independence he had made to the Arabs and frustrated his work.[14]

# ^ Rory Stewart (presenter). (23 January 2010). The Legacy of Lawrence of Arabia. BBC. http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00qgtjk/The_Legacy_of_Lawrence_of_Arabia_Episode_2/.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

longeyes

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Re: Egypt: What's happening?
« Reply #110 on: February 04, 2011, 11:25:06 AM »
Perhaps the man was a "romantic?"  But, yes, the same.
"Domari nolo."

Thug: What you lookin' at old man?
Walt Kowalski: Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have messed with? That's me.

Molon Labe.

longeyes

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Re: Egypt: What's happening?
« Reply #111 on: February 06, 2011, 04:16:13 PM »
"Domari nolo."

Thug: What you lookin' at old man?
Walt Kowalski: Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have messed with? That's me.

Molon Labe.

roo_ster

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Re: Egypt: What's happening?
« Reply #112 on: February 07, 2011, 08:22:23 AM »
Democracy is just one more tool.

http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2011/02/democracy-of-cannibals.html

One vote.

Once.

<Followed by the usual savagery we have come to expect.>
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roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
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roo_ster

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Re: Egypt: What's happening?
« Reply #113 on: February 07, 2011, 02:56:49 PM »
This fellow voices something close to my position on the current fracas and arab politics in general:
http://radio.nationalreview.com/radioderb/post/?q=Njk2YjBkOTAxMmI0MWE2NzI3NTJjNjRiOTg4NmY2MzE=

Starts at 1:15 & goes to 7:30.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 03:08:42 PM by roo_ster »
Regards,

roo_ster

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Bogie

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Re: Egypt: What's happening?
« Reply #114 on: February 10, 2011, 06:52:05 PM »
Back to the top, and I'm guessing that Mubarak has...
 
(a) a very tenuous grasp on reality
 
and
 
(b) a death wish
 
Seriously. What part of "it's over, and you really need to go see if your money is in the Caymans" doesn't he understand? Didn't he take "Despotic Dictator 101?"
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TommyGunn

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Re: Egypt: What's happening?
« Reply #115 on: February 10, 2011, 07:48:52 PM »
Given he's >80 and apparantly has cancer I suspect he doesn't think he really has much to lose, so he is making a "last stand."
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Monkeyleg

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Re: Egypt: What's happening?
« Reply #116 on: February 10, 2011, 07:52:43 PM »
I read somewhere that he was worth 70 million (or was it billion?). Either way, I don't know why he's sticking around. That kind of money buys a lot of hookers and coke.

longeyes

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Re: Egypt: What's happening?
« Reply #117 on: February 10, 2011, 10:26:35 PM »
Because the best high and best orgasm is power.
"Domari nolo."

Thug: What you lookin' at old man?
Walt Kowalski: Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have messed with? That's me.

Molon Labe.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Egypt: What's happening?
« Reply #118 on: February 10, 2011, 10:30:45 PM »
Because he can't be sure his replacement doesn't track him down and shoot him in the head. Think of Suha Arafat.
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seeker_two

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Re: Egypt: What's happening?
« Reply #119 on: February 10, 2011, 10:48:58 PM »
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110210/ap_on_re_us/us_egypt_mubarak_3

Quote from: Yahoo News
WASHINGTON – CIA Director Leon Panetta says U.S. intelligence indicates that Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak is on his way out.


TRANSLATION: Mubarak will be President for Life.....  :facepalm:
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

RoadKingLarry

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Re: Egypt: What's happening?
« Reply #120 on: February 10, 2011, 11:38:51 PM »
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110210/ap_on_re_us/us_egypt_mubarak_3

TRANSLATION: Mubarak will be President for Life.....  :facepalm:

Of course at his age that could still be a pretty near term event.

I've been wondering if we are going to see a Tianamen Square type event in Eqypt?
For the pups-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

De Selby

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Re: Egypt: What's happening?
« Reply #121 on: February 11, 2011, 12:15:23 AM »
I think we're more likely to see a repeat of 1789 than 1989 if this keeps up- the rank and file are not sufficiently organized to massacre a protest this tenacious to death.  It has way, way too much popular support, and has managed to focus on getting Mubarak out and having elections, rather than being focused on substantive political agendas.  It probably cannot be split for that reason. 

Most likely, Israel and the US have demanded that Mubarak stay until suleiman can organize a viable dictatorship of his own.  There's no other way to preserve the peace treaty, and the gulf regimes are starting to wobble.  If they go you can expect WWIII
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Monkeyleg

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Re: Egypt: What's happening?
« Reply #122 on: February 11, 2011, 12:52:10 AM »
Quote
Most likely, Israel and the US have demanded that Mubarak stay until suleiman can organize a viable dictatorship of his own.

Of course the US would want a dictatorship. Wanting a democracy would be, like, so Bush.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Egypt: What's happening?
« Reply #123 on: February 11, 2011, 01:58:55 AM »
I think we're more likely to see a repeat of 1789 than 1989 if this keeps up- the rank and file are not sufficiently organized to massacre a protest this tenacious to death.  It has way, way too much popular support, and has managed to focus on getting Mubarak out and having elections, rather than being focused on substantive political agendas.  It probably cannot be split for that reason. 


Let me be clear.

Do you feel that Israel cannot exist unless the populations of Syria, Egypt, and several other countries - at the very least, 100 million people - are suppressed in dictatorships, and that should there be fair elections in these countries, loathsome dirtbags would come to power that would proceed to prepare for another war?

Is it effectively your argument?
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Egypt: What's happening?
« Reply #124 on: February 11, 2011, 03:13:22 AM »
I see it as a possibility.  Not so much that they need to be represses/surpressed by a dictatorship but if a radical enough leadership takes control of enough of Isreals historic enemies an attack is a possibility
Not saying that the IDF isn't a very capable, top notch military machine but if it came down to pretty much the muslim middle east against Isreal it could be pretty ugly.

And, with the current seat warmer in the Oval Office I would be surprised if the US offered anything more than a luke warm protest against any offensive acts against Isreal.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams