Author Topic: Don't talk to the police (or CPS)  (Read 6683 times)

Jocassee

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Don't talk to the police (or CPS)
« on: September 11, 2014, 09:37:05 AM »
Especially CPS.

http://www.haikuoftheday.com/haiku_of_the_day/2014/09/it-was-a-monday-late-morning-hotter-than-hot-we-were-not-even-24-hours-home-from-vacation-and-i-was-going-through-the-pil.html

A tale of the 21st century: A busy-body neighbor leads to a visit from police and CPS.

Quote
The police officer asked if my son had been outside alone. She asked why I thought it was OK for him to be unsupervised. She took my ID. She wrote down the names and ages of the children.

Quote
Called an attorney friend to see if I needed to start getting really, really worried, and then I called back the CPS investigator. Within an hour she was at the house, interviewing the kids one at a time, alone with her, while I had to sequester myself upstairs. I wanted to argue. I wanted to protest. I wanted to stamp my foot and say, "No, ma'am, you are NOT allowed to speak to my children without me being present." But I was cowed. And I understood why the process had to be that way. I didn't like it. I DON'T like it. But I understood. I understand. I complied.

My kids reported that she asked questions about drugs and alcohol, about pornography, about how often they bathe, about fighting in the home.

And then this useful comment at the bottom:
Quote
CPS is a tricky situation. You do have to talk to them, but you don't have to do it on their terms. You should never let them in your house unless you have been ordered by the court to do so. You should never let them interview your children or yourself without an attorney present. You should insist that all questions be relevant to whatever the allegation is. In this case, drug use and pornography have nothing to do with the allegation and should have been completely out of bounds. They will insist that it work differently than that, but they cannot do anything without your consent or a court order. If you withhold your consent, they must get a court order. If you are making a reasonable demand (don't talk to my kid about porn if the allegation is neglectful supervision), it is very unlikely that a judge will go against you. I'm really sorry this happened to you. You subjected yourself to a fishing expedition, and you are fortunate that one of your kids didn't say something strange (kids say the darnedest things) that got you wrapped up in some other drama. My family went through a similar circumstance. I'm terribly sorry you had to go through this. I am glad it worked out.

Posted by: Samuel Rylander | September 11, 2014 at 12:15 AM

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RevDisk

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Re: Don't talk to the police (or CPS)
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2014, 10:22:05 AM »
CPS is tricky. They will throw children to the wolves (let children stay in abusive homes, ignore abuse cases, etc) but also rip normal families apart on the thinnest of pretexts. I'm vastly confused by this, but best I can figure, it's all about the social worker in question.
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Ben

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Re: Don't talk to the police (or CPS)
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2014, 10:43:21 AM »
CPS is tricky. They will throw children to the wolves (let children stay in abusive homes, ignore abuse cases, etc) but also rip normal families apart on the thinnest of pretexts. I'm vastly confused by this, but best I can figure, it's all about the social worker in question.

I think you nailed it. There seems to be way too much leeway for the "personality" of the social worker. Not that you still couldn't get bad decisions, but it seems it would be better to have two case workers present when interviewing children without the parents there. Though having a lawyer present certainly isn't a bad idea. Or even a priest, rabbi, or pastor for the religious folks (but local government would probably frown on that as not being their interpretation of the BoR as freedom "from" religion).
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roo_ster

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Re: Don't talk to the police (or CPS)
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2014, 10:52:10 AM »
Yeah, show me a court order or GTFO.

Getting tired of the busy-body bad samaritans and their jackbooted auxiliaries.

http://www.freerangekids.com/

Regards,

roo_ster

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KD5NRH

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Re: Don't talk to the police (or CPS)
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2014, 11:53:18 AM »
Though having a lawyer present certainly isn't a bad idea. Or even a priest, rabbi, or pastor for the religious folks (but local government would probably frown on that as not being their interpretation of the BoR as freedom "from" religion).

I know just the guy if I ever have to deal with that; lay minister, became a child psychologist after he realized that law school just wasn't going to be the best course he could use to make a good impact on the world.  Also no fan at all of most CPS case workers considering how many of the messes they left in kids' heads that he's had to clean up.  Plus, being in Texas, if he goes into the interview wired for sound, it's all admissible in court.

vaskidmark

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Re: Don't talk to the police (or CPS)
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2014, 06:55:59 PM »
I used to be a CPS worker - for about 14 years.  Prince William County and then Spotsylvania County Va in the 70s and 80s - ask CSD about how the places changed from rural to DC bedroom suburb.  I was (and continue to be) proud of what I did.  What goes on today makes me want to commit neglect and abuse.

Back then there was a lot of common sense being applied, and a different concept of what abuse and especially negect were than what is being bandied about today.  If today I made the same legal and clinical judgements as I did back then I'd be locked away as some sort of deranged fiend.

I'd say more but I don't have enough blood pressure meds in the house.

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Don't talk to the police (or CPS)
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2014, 07:23:06 PM »
Today too many of the folks in the field are there because they are trying to work through the issues from their own troubled childhoods


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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Tallpine

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Re: Don't talk to the police (or CPS)
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2014, 07:45:30 PM »
Today too many of the folks in the field are there because they are trying to work through the issues from their own troubled childhoods


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That seems to be the case with a lot of the so called "mental health professionals" also  =(
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Don't talk to the police (or CPS)
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2014, 08:04:15 PM »
Yes in spades


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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

zxcvbob

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Re: Don't talk to the police (or CPS)
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2014, 09:20:36 PM »
Quote
I opened the door, ready to politely and firmly tell her to go away, but it was not her. It was a police officer.
The police officer asked if my son had been outside alone. She asked why I thought it was OK for him to be unsupervised. She took my ID. She wrote down the names and ages of the children.

Here was the first big mistake.  She should have said something like "that's none of your business" and shut the door.  Another possibility was instead of answering questions, take the opportunity to report the neighbor for kidnapping.
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wmenorr67

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Re: Don't talk to the police (or CPS)
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2014, 06:53:17 AM »
Quote
But I was also warned: the neighbor can call CPS as many times as she wants. If she truly feels there's neglect, she can't be prosecuted for making false allegations. We could try to sue her for harassment. We could try to press charges for kidnapping if she approaches our son again and tries to get him to move from where he's playing. But in all reality, when children are involved, the person who makes the complaint gets the benefit of the doubt. For parents, it is guilty until proven innocent. I understand why the system works this way, but it makes me feel like we are prisoners in our own home. It makes me feel helpless and at the mercy of someone I don't even know. It makes me incredibly, guiltily relieved to enjoy the privileges that I do.

This is the thing that pisses me off.  Get a vengeful neighbor and your life is hell until one of you moves or is dead.
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Jocassee

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Re: Don't talk to the police (or CPS)
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2014, 07:57:33 AM »
I used to be a CPS worker - for about 14 years.  Prince William County and then Spotsylvania County Va in the 70s and 80s - ask CSD about how the places changed from rural to DC bedroom suburb.  I was (and continue to be) proud of what I did.  What goes on today makes me want to commit neglect and abuse.

Back then there was a lot of common sense being applied, and a different concept of what abuse and especially negect were than what is being bandied about today.  If today I made the same legal and clinical judgements as I did back then I'd be locked away as some sort of deranged fiend.

I'd say more but I don't have enough blood pressure meds in the house.

stay safe.

Skid, what has changed in the counseling/social worker culture that has made this so? I assume it corresponds to the overall pussification and neurotiificaion of America, but would be interested to get your take.
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Tallpine

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Re: Don't talk to the police (or CPS)
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2014, 12:09:46 PM »
This is the thing that pisses me off.  Get a vengeful neighbor and your life is hell until one of you moves or is dead.

Yeah - what about a whole church that is out for vengeance against you?   :mad:
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KD5NRH

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Re: Don't talk to the police (or CPS)
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2014, 12:20:56 PM »
Yeah - what about a whole church that is out for vengeance against you?

Report them to Westboro Baptist, then pray for a meteor?

vaskidmark

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Re: Don't talk to the police (or CPS)
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2014, 12:37:09 PM »
Skid, what has changed in the counseling/social worker culture that has made this so? I assume it corresponds to the overall pussification and neurotiificaion of America, but would be interested to get your take.

It's the "I am a victim" syndrome.  Rather than accept responsibility, the blame must be placed on someone else.  That plus the fact that there are tilecrawlers that agree that someone with deep pockets ought to be the "responsible" party.

"Child neglect" is so broad and ambiguous that you could, if you had a cold, be found guilty if you breathed in the same room as a kid.  "Abuse" OTOH requires not just an injury but an injury of a specific minimum degree.

The other part is that social work/counseling no longer even bothers to try to fix what is wrong.  All that takes place is (most often) going through the motions of "doing something", and when they can't get away with that the fallback is to give up and find the easiest way of makig the problem no longer exist - with kids it's to remove them and put them in foster care and then walk away from everything.  The law says that efforts must be made to reintegrate the family and to return the kids to their parents' home.  Written goals must be submitted to the juvenile court for approval and then periodic monitoring (reports submitted).

All that matters nowadays is that the goals are written and signed off on, and that they periodic reports are submitted.  If a goal is not accomplished it is the fault of some other person at some other agency/company and the most you might be able to do is terminate the contract - except they are the only game in town because the welfare system rigged it that way.

Goals I have seen are both meaningless and impossible to measure, let alone attain.  Those goals also involve sending the "client" to somebody else.  When I was in the business I was the primary provider for almost all services and counseling for all my cases (usual load was 75).  I referred to outside for things like medical care (they would not let me practice medicine without a license, the fools!).  Kids who needed tutoring to catch up?  If I had to frog-march the parents into the school to request after-school assistance I did it.  Kids need halfway decent clothes?  I made life hell for them until the parents went down to the clothing closet and handed over the voucher with my name on it.  Parent needed a job but had no way to get to one?  The most I would do, besides badgering them mercilessly, was to take them down to the church that ran a transportation ministry so they could ask for help - and then hounded them on payday about how much money goes towards eventually buying a car.

Back then I realized it and never had any qualms about it - I was acting as their parent.  And a very demanding parent, too.  That's because most of them had never been parented so had no idea of how to parent their kids.

For the parents who beat their kids?  It did not matter so much why they stopped, which seems to be the goal these days.  My goal was for it to stop, and then maybe to address issues of why that was the preferred means of dealing with whatever they were dealing with.  But doing that was all gravy - getting the hitting stopped was the meat.

When kids and parents could not safely stay together my first choice was to get the parent to leave.  If that was not possible (and I had a lot of ways to persuade them to consider doing so that are no longer legal or socially appropriate :angel:) I'd try to find a relative or family friend that would take the kids.  Only if there were still problems with the "offending" parent did I seek legal custody of the kids - again a stick in my bag of sticks to either prod the parent or tie a carrot to in order to entice them in the direction I wanted them to go.  I had my own foster homes - others in the agency could use them but had to get approval from the director.  Why?  Because those foster parents worked their asses off trying to make up for years of bad or nonexistent parenting and I did not want them worn out with kids/families that almost anybody could deal with.  Also, all but one of "my" foster homes were specially trained to deal with kids who had been sexually abused or seriously injured by their parent(s) - I needed to have the rooms available.

If you are not catching it, I freely admit I was a know-it-all dictator.  But the thing is I would stack my record up against anybody else's - numbers of kids who were no longer abused/neglected, numbers of parents who learned what kids needed socially and emotionally and were able to provide those things, and most importantly of all the numbers of kids who grew up and did not perpetuate the cycle.  All of those were to me much more important than the numbers of kids graduating high school or more necessary, being able to hold a job that paid enough so they wrre not a leech on the taxpayers.

Going back to goals - many times the only goal I could get the parents to agree to* was the goal of the welfare man not coiming out any more.  It was in the steps we agreed on* that needed to be taken to achieve that goal where all the magic happened.

I also cultivated a close professional relationship with the judge in the juvenile court.  I became an advisor he could trust, and fed him options to pick from instead of leaving him hanging with a report of how things were no better after X months.  He repaid that by taking pains to "suggest" to the domestic relations lawyers that appeared in his court that I might be helpful - to the point that a divorce mediation service was set up several years before the state got their fingers in that pie.  They got paid a little less but were not tearing out their hair.  I got paid (always good).  And families walked away a little bit less bitter or maybe even happy.

And in order to accomplish all that I needed to work with the families where and when they were available - not demand that they miss a day of work just to see my bright and shining face.  That meant working nights - and sometimes weekends.  After a lengthy "discussion" I got approval from the agency director for "unusual" working hours (but I had to document that I was putting in 40 per week and no overtime just because it was outside normal office hours).  I also needed to get approval from my family, which turned out to be easier.  They saw daddy's job of "helping people" as being important - and besides I could do some chores during the day that might otherwise not get done.  I also got to be with the Former Daughter before and after school. =D

Today it's not a calling.  It's just a job and the people in the families that compose the caseloads are just widgets.  It's also that caseloads have multiplied because of all the CYAing to make sure you are not sued.  (If somebody else gets sued it's no skin off your nose.)  There's much less time, and even less inclination, to put forth the effort any more.  Also, there is much less sense of commuity that can be marshalled to help deal with problems.  So we end up with widgets.

One final comment:  Yes, I am bragging about what I did.  I was not driven by the fact that I came from a dysfunctional family - heck, if we were dysfunctional that would have been magnitudes or order better than what we were.  But that did not enter into the picture for me.  I simply saw something I was good at - $diety knows why - and that I actually enjoyed doing it.  It helps when you get up to be looking forward to what the day will bring.  It was not a calling. It was just something I enjoyed doing.

Hard for folks to say that these days.

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

Jocassee

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Re: Don't talk to the police (or CPS)
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2014, 01:21:36 PM »
Damned excellent post. Not everyone can look back on their career and say they made a difference in lives.
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vaskidmark

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Re: Don't talk to the police (or CPS)
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2014, 08:05:33 PM »
Damned excellent post. Not everyone can look back on their career and say they made a difference in lives.

Coming back and rereading, I was reminded that although I might have been out in front of the pack, the rest of the folks I worked with were pretty darned close on my heels.  We even had "eligibility workers" (the folks who figured out if you were financially eligible to be considered poor enough to get welfare (ADC) and Food Stamps (the real paper coupons) who, when they made "Man in the house" checks took time out to teach folks how to cook, clean, and otherwise change their hovels into habitations.

Some days I get swelled head and think I was responsible for them doing that.  But most days I remember that everyone has a stake in society.

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

MillCreek

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Re: Don't talk to the police (or CPS)
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2014, 10:43:57 PM »
Skid, that was really interesting, and this goes into my learn something everyday column.  My interaction with CPS is fairly limited, usually in either calling to report a case, or providing medical records and answering questions related to our care of a child.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Don't talk to the police (or CPS)
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2014, 11:36:58 PM »
"Child neglect" is so broad and ambiguous that you could, if you had a cold, be found guilty if you breathed in the same room as a kid.  "Abuse" OTOH requires not just an injury but an injury of a specific minimum degree.

Depends on the state, the laws, and the definitions. Around here, there's a catch-all charge called "Child Endangerment." That one covers a multitude of sins, from leaving your 6-month old infant in the car under a hot sun for four hours while you have your pedicure, to walking the kid is a stroller on a sunny day without a full-on sun shade.

I am constantly amazed that I lived beyond the point of counting my age in single digits. By today's standards, I was neglected, abused, AND endangered. Let's see:

  • If I (hypothetically) did bad things, I got spanked. With a leather belt
  • In our big old American car, I didn't ride in a seat -- I crawled up on the back shelf behind the rear seat.
  • We didn't have seatbelts until I was 16 -- and I installed them in Mom's car
  • I learned to shoot a real rifle at about age 8
  • Our town was still rural when I was young. I was allowed to wander around in the woods with no escort, and no supervision. (And no GPS collar).
  • I learned to drive -- a standard transmission -- when I was about ten. I wasn't allowed on public roads, but I was allowed to putter around the fields in Mom's car.
  • We played cowboys and indians -- shooting each other with cork-firing guns and suction cup arrows.
  • I climbed trees. BIG trees -- all the way to the top.
  • We rode bicycles to school in good weather. About 4 or 5 miles each way -- unsupervised.

I'm sure there were other examples of felonious neglect/abuse/endangerment, but those are a few that come to mind right away.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2014, 11:40:08 PM by Hawkmoon »
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vaskidmark

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Re: Don't talk to the police (or CPS)
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2014, 03:59:16 AM »
But did you ever ride your bicycle in the cloud of poison behind the mosquito control truck?

Or stand downwind from the vacant lot when the fire department burned off the weed weeds?

And probably most dangerous of all - did you ever drink straight from the garden hose just after someone else did?

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

HankB

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Re: Don't talk to the police (or CPS)
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2014, 07:55:06 AM »
I am constantly amazed that I lived beyond the point of counting my age in single digits. By today's standards, I was neglected, abused, AND endangered. Let's see:

  • If I (hypothetically) did bad things, I got spanked. With a leather belt  Gee, this sounds familiar.
  • In our big old American car, I didn't ride in a seat -- I crawled up on the back shelf behind the rear seat.  I stood on the seat next to Dad in the first car I rode in, a 1950 Buick.
  • We didn't have seatbelts until I was 16 -- and I installed them in Mom's car
  • I learned to shoot a real rifle at about age 8  BB gun at 4, .22 rifle at 7
  • Our town was still rural when I was young. I was allowed to wander around in the woods with no escort, and no supervision. (And no GPS collar). Grew up in Chicago. Play was never scheduled or supervised.
  • I learned to drive -- a standard transmission -- when I was about ten. I wasn't allowed on public roads, but I was allowed to putter around the fields in Mom's car.  Got me beat there.
  • We played cowboys and indians -- shooting each other with cork-firing guns and suction cup arrows.  We played Cowboys & Indians, Cops & Robbers, Army, or just "Guns" , , , and some of our toys looked real enough to get us arrested or shot today.
  • I climbed trees. BIG trees -- all the way to the top.  Yep.
  • We rode bicycles to school in good weather. About 4 or 5 miles each way -- unsupervised.  Lived a lot closer, only about a mile. I walked. Through the snow . . .
Also drank from the hose in summer, carried a pocket knife, rode a bike without a helmet, had fireworks in July, and did all sorts of un-PC stuff. Yet I somehow survived . . .
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Tallpine

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Re: Don't talk to the police (or CPS)
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2014, 11:00:29 AM »
When the CPS guy visited us years ago, we just chatted out on the porch.

Fortunately the accusations against us were so bizarre and outlandish that he apparently realized there was an organized vendetta by multiple parties, especially after I talked with him in a careful but reasonable manner.

They closed the case within 24 hours, but had I refused to talk then it would have just aroused/confirmed that the accusations might be valid.
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

BlueStarLizzard

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Re: Don't talk to the police (or CPS)
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2014, 12:41:23 PM »
skid, I'm pretty sure my mother would read that post and cheer.
Working on the other end of the age spectrum and she also got burned (and burned out) on the shift from doing the best thing for clients and expediency.

She always maintained that a social worker should be a resource and a tool to find the best outcome for the client within their wishes. If that meant having her daughter come out to wash and de-flea a clients dog, that's what she did. She had her finger in every charitable pile in the area to assist her clients, and did her damnest to help them stay in their homes, if that was what they wanted.
Ultimately, she got fired as the mission statement of the origination of helping the elderly got altered into funnel them all into their programs and their nursing home. =/
"Okay, um, I'm lost. Uh, I'm angry, and I'm armed, so if you two have something that you need to work out --" -Malcolm Reynolds

Strings

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Re: Don't talk to the police (or CPS)
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2014, 01:39:19 PM »
>Today too many of the folks in the field are there because they are trying to work through the issues from their own troubled childhoods<

I have seen FAR too much of this

We have an odd love/hate relationship with CPS up here. We have to work with them, and there are sometimes good ones. But some of them: ye gawds, petty tyrants working out their own issues is being charitable
No Child Should Live In Fear

What was that about a pearl handled revolver and someone from New Orleans again?

Screw it: just autoclave the planet (thanks Birdman)

brimic

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Re: Don't talk to the police (or CPS)
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2014, 07:11:45 PM »
Whats erong eith drinking from a hose?  It was the best tasting water we had...

My list was pretty much the same as Hawkmoon's,  with quite a few more additions.
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

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