Women in combat arms

[T.O.M.]

Not that this is much of a breaking news story, as women in support units and semi-combat units (MP's, Intel, Medics, etc.) are already in combat, but it looks like the DOD rule against women openly serving in combat units is done...

http://news.yahoo.com/ap-sources-panetta-opens-combat-roles-women-203034238--politics.html

Gotta say that 25 years ago when I was at West Point, there were some women that I thought would be just fine in combat arms, better than some of the guys.  When do you think we'll see the first female SFOD/D or SEAL?

[Fly320s]

Which will come first, a female Seal/Spec Ops, or women required to register for the draft.

[SADShooter]

On one hand, I have no problem with equal work for equal pay. There will be a cost in lives, both female and male. I'm at the point of concluding that this is part of the cost of a "free" society, along with 2A rights and every other example.

On the other hand, I cannot believe this to be a decision driven by principle, coming as it does from an administration which acts entirely through the prism of policy and perception. Paneta is out the door, and this is intended and timed to distract from something else.

[Bigjake]

I call dibs on a female for next CFT.   Fireman's carry just got stupid easy.

[Perd Hapley]

This is a bad decision.

[Scout26]

Does this not require Congressional approval?


Or is this more thing we must do NOW, because we can't wait for Congress to act?

[TommyGunn]

...........  When do you think we'll see the first female SFOD/D or SEAL?

There will never be a female U.S. Navy SEAL.

[RoadKingLarry]

I don't have a problem with it if all are held to the same standards and not a reduced, unrealistic standard tailored to allow women.
I'm also in support of women having to register for selective service.

[Viking]

I don't have a problem with it if all are held to the same standards and not a reduced, unrealistic standard tailored to allow women.

This. Should also apply to police, firefighters and such...

[BlueStarLizzard]

I don't have a problem with it if all are held to the same standards and not a reduced, unrealistic standard tailored to allow women.
I'm also in support of women having to register for selective service.

Agreed. On both points.

[Bigjake]

I don't have a problem with it if all are held to the same standards and not a reduced, unrealistic standard tailored to allow women.
I'm also in support of women having to register for selective service.

Absolutely agreed.  Equal is equal.

[Ben]

I have low hopes of it, but hopefully they will tailor combat roles to the skills and abilities of the females (as they should be doing with men).

I used to fly with a female pilot who was an Annapolis grad, went through SERE with the guys, and flew helos in combat support during the Gulf War, including SAR. She had a couple of good stories that involved bullet holes in her helos. She was the best pilot I have ever flown with - absolutely amazing ability and cool as a cucumber. If I was a soldier in a sticky wicket and needed air extraction, she's who I'd pray they sent. At the same time, I used to have to change the water bottles on the office water cooler for her. As much as I would want her to rescue me with an aircraft, I would dread having to count on her to drag my 230lbs even a few feet.

[brimic]

Do they even have Selective Services any more?

[T.O.M.]

I don't have a problem with it if all are held to the same standards and not a reduced, unrealistic standard tailored to allow women.

An M4 weighs the same, no matter who is humping it,, with a ruck and everything else.

[roo_ster]

The Progressive war on the realities of biology continues(1).

There are likely a very small number of female world-class athletes who might be able to meet the physical conditioning and performance standards of the more vigorous elements of SOCOM.  Like less than 100.  All of whom would be better off applying their freakish sixth-sigma talents(2) elsewhere and make megabucks.




(1) "The Right believes in biology, but not in evolution; the Left believes in evolution, but not in biology."
----Steve Sailer

(2) Guys who meet the standard are much more common, even in 2013 Obese Uh-merica.

[kgbsquirrel]

Do they even have Selective Services any more?

Yes.

[longeyes]

This. Should also apply to police, firefighters and such...

This would be assuming that the objective is to win wars, fight crime, stop fires, etc.

It's not.  It's to enforce a political and philosophical ideal of equality.  Nothing beyond that.

[Hawkmoon]

This would be assuming that the objective is to win wars, fight crime, stop fires, etc.

It's not.  It's to enforce a political and philosophical ideal of equality.  Nothing beyond that.

This. A long time ago, in a galaxy far from here, my ex-sister-in-law was in training to become a state trooper. She stood maybe 5'-3" and most likely barely broke 100 pounds on the scale. We were over at my parents' house for dinner one night (my bro and the s-i-l trainee, and I guess I was with some GF or other). S-i-l proceeded to tell us she was now an expert in hand-to-hand combat, and that if any guy laid a hand on her she could have him flattened out on the floor in seconds.

My brother was starting center on an undefeated football team as a sophomore. He came up behind her and put her in a simulated one-arm choke hold from behind. She did a picture perfect grab on his arm, put all her weight into it, and tried to throw him.

Her feet came up off the ground and my brother just stood there asking what was supposed to happen next.

The only other time I saw her that mad was before she and my brother were married. She drove a VW beetle at the time, and before she and my brother left for a date one evening she made the monumental error of saying the beetle was impossible to steal. One of our gearhead friends was present, so he and I told her not to go home after the date, to come directly to my place to retrieve her car.

She laughed ...

BIG mistake.

[Kitteh-Dragon]

Tom Kratman, over on Baen's Bar, had quite a lot to say about such a thing, over the last few years.  (Col., Army Ranger, etc. You can look up his info if you don't know it).  I asked him if it was all in one place, to point people to.  He told me here:

http://www.baen.com/amazonsrightbreast.asp

Not that this is much of a breaking news story, as women in support units and semi-combat units (MP's, Intel, Medics, etc.) are already in combat, but it looks like the DOD rule against women openly serving in combat units is done...

http://news.yahoo.com/ap-sources-panetta-opens-combat-roles-women-203034238--politics.html

Gotta say that 25 years ago when I was at West Point, there were some women that I thought would be just fine in combat arms, better than some of the guys.  When do you think we'll see the first female SFOD/D or SEAL?

[Nick1911]

Do they even have Selective Services any more?

Indeed.  I just updated my address with them last year, got a postcard in the mail from em'.

Funny, I don't think most guys my age think to update addresses with them, even though it's required by law.

I don't have a problem with it if all are held to the same standards and not a reduced, unrealistic standard tailored to allow women.
I'm also in support of women having to register for selective service.

I agree.  I have no quarrel with equal rights - for any group!  Provided it is truly equal, and not "special rights" for a politically protected class.  In the eyes of the law, we should all be the same.  Yes, I realize there are pragmatic issues with this.  And yes, I also understand the ideological issues around "Well, if you have 9 men and one woman, how many babies can you produce per year?  What about 9 women and one man?".  It is my opinion that we're far beyond the tribal politics of such logic.

[BobR]

There will never be a female U.S. Navy SEAL.

This is truth.

In 2001 New Zealand open all of its military to women, including the SAS. No woman has yet become a member of the SAS.

bob

[MicroBalrog]

Women have served in Special Operations Units (just not US ones) since there were Special Operations units, and, in their service, performed deeds of which every US Marine or Special Operations soldier would have been proud of - had he committed these deeds.

The notion that women - physically healthy women, not superhumans - are incapable of special operations service is trampled upon by hundreds and thousands of women commandos in Soviet, Israeli, and other countries' service.

As an example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ekaterina_Mikhailova-Demina

She single-handedly assaulted a fortified German position, taking 14 prisoners, and treated 17 wounded men and helped them get to safety.[2] She earned an Order of the Red Banner for her role in the assault.[1]

Only 13 of her unit survived the intense gun battle and all were wounded. Some of the casualties fell out of their trees and into the freezing water but were saved by Mikhailova-Demina, who jumped in and used belts and rifle slings to tie the wounded men to the trees. Seven men were saved by her.[

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyudmila_Pavlichenko

In May 1942, Lieutenant Pavlichenko was cited by the Southern Army Council for killing 257 German soldiers. Her total confirmed kills during World War II was 309,[2][3] including 36 enemy snipers.

The IDF has women as combat divers, fighter pilots, special operatives, etc.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/womidf.html

Will there be less women who are special operatives than men? Sure. But that's not to say women biologically cannot hack it in the special forces.

[kgbsquirrel]

I would point out that the physical requirements of a Soviet sniper during the Great Patriotic War are substantially different from a Recon Marine kicking in a door in Fallujah. Simply the amount of gear carried has increased dramatically, and I dare say that in Ukraine, in 1944, Mrs. Mikhailova-Demina likely didn't have to contend with the potential challenge of dragging a 200 pound man wearing 70 lbs of gear out of a burning humvee.

Now, with that said, there should be every opportunity for women to serve, but the minimum physical standards should be calibrated to meet the requirements of the warfare mission, not the lower standard deviation of the mean average for the gender.

As a practical example I was required to meet a minimum of 37 pushups when I was a 20 year old sailor to pass that portion of a PRT (I did more, but that was the bare minimum required). During a damage control drill I had to hold a forty pound steel patch plate over my head, pressed against the bulkhead while standing on the guard rails in the main fire pump compartment so the rest of the damage control party could setup the shoring to pin it in place. I personally found this a very taxing experience with my arms approaching muscle failure. Can I really count on the 20 year old female who is only required to be able to do 19 pushups to be able to physically accomplish the same evolution if necessary?

Military service is a physically demanding job, and there is no politically correct way around that fact that does not in turn endanger lives.

[MicroBalrog]

n Ukraine, in 1944, Mrs. Mikhailova-Demina likely didn't have to contend with the potential challenge of dragging a 200 pound man wearing 70 lbs of gear out of a burning humvee.

She hoisted seven grown men up trees while injured, tied them to the trees, and then advanced on the enemy. Then she killed ten German troops in close combat.

She was in fact an actual recon Marine (a medic, then an NCO in a Marine Infantry reconnaissance unit).

Insert Quote
I would point out that the physical requirements of a Soviet sniper during the Great Patriotic War are substantially different from a Recon Marine kicking in a door in Fallujah.

Fine.

Here are women who passed the physical fitness test of the Australian SAS with flying colors and are unable to join up for bureaucratic reasons.

Women also serve in the Russian Special Forces to this day:



This is Alla Bakhtinova, Captain, Russian Special Forces.

The entry requirements into Russian Spetznaz have been designed by taking the Green Beret qualification training and doubling the run distance and the sparring time. Perhaps she is less trained, less tough, or less brave than US SF soldiers. This I do not know. But she's certainly physically fit.

[RoadKingLarry]

Micro, no one is saying it can't be done. What you are hearing is the voice of experience on how the US military has "equalized" women in uniform in the past.

As a practical example I was required to meet a minimum of 37 pushups when I was a 20 year old sailor to pass that portion of a PRT ........the 20 year old female who is only required to be able to do 19 pushups

That is PC "equality" in the US military to date.