Author Topic: The Justice System in the crosshairs...  (Read 10424 times)

T.O.M.

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,409
Re: The Justice System in the crosshairs...
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2013, 12:14:02 PM »
They tried to destroy 6000 kids. How many would warrant it, Chris?

Rev, this is about my personal beliefs regarding capital punishment, and my personal sense of right and wrong.  Please don't take it as me trying to defend what these two did.  I completely believe that they should be punished.  Imprisoned for a very long time, and not in Club Fed.  Financially stripped of everything.  But I personally don't believe that it warrants their execution.  I can empathize with those who do, but I don't feel that way.
No, I'm not mtnbkr.  ;)

a.k.a. "our resident Legal Smeagol."...thanks BryanP
"Anybody can give legal advice - but only licensed attorneys can sell it."...vaskidmark

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: The Justice System in the crosshairs...
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2013, 04:05:04 PM »
Rev, this is about my personal beliefs regarding capital punishment, and my personal sense of right and wrong.  Please don't take it as me trying to defend what these two did.  I completely believe that they should be punished.  Imprisoned for a very long time, and not in Club Fed.  Financially stripped of everything.  But I personally don't believe that it warrants their execution.  I can empathize with those who do, but I don't feel that way.

It's kind of inconvenient to keep a rogue judge/prosecutor locked in your basement for forty years  =D
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

T.O.M.

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,409
Re: The Justice System in the crosshairs...
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2013, 05:28:53 PM »
It's kind of inconvenient to keep a rogue judge/prosecutor locked in your basement for forty years  =D

Yeah, most are loud, and smell pretty bad.  Require a lot of liquor to shut them up.
No, I'm not mtnbkr.  ;)

a.k.a. "our resident Legal Smeagol."...thanks BryanP
"Anybody can give legal advice - but only licensed attorneys can sell it."...vaskidmark

RevDisk

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,633
    • RevDisk.net
Re: The Justice System in the crosshairs...
« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2013, 10:19:17 AM »
Rev, this is about my personal beliefs regarding capital punishment, and my personal sense of right and wrong.  Please don't take it as me trying to defend what these two did.  I completely believe that they should be punished.  Imprisoned for a very long time, and not in Club Fed.  Financially stripped of everything.  But I personally don't believe that it warrants their execution.  I can empathize with those who do, but I don't feel that way.

I concur, actually.

Government doesn't have the best track record on correctly identifying folks that need killing, and more than one or two have been proven innocent.
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

T.O.M.

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,409
Re: The Justice System in the crosshairs...
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2013, 10:48:29 AM »
I concur, actually.

Government doesn't have the best track record on correctly identifying folks that need killing, and more than one or two have been proven innocent.

Yep.  Makes it hard to support capital punishment when you learn after the execution that the man wasn't guilty of the crime for which he was put to death.
No, I'm not mtnbkr.  ;)

a.k.a. "our resident Legal Smeagol."...thanks BryanP
"Anybody can give legal advice - but only licensed attorneys can sell it."...vaskidmark

RevDisk

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,633
    • RevDisk.net
Re: The Justice System in the crosshairs...
« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2013, 11:08:56 AM »
Yep.  Makes it hard to support capital punishment when you learn after the execution that the man wasn't guilty of the crime for which he was put to death.


I notice a lot of conservatives that are generally smart enough to generally see that government should be kept limited...  And plenty of those same people then trust the government with killing its own citizens.

 ???
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: The Justice System in the crosshairs...
« Reply #31 on: April 05, 2013, 01:05:16 PM »
I notice a lot of conservatives that are generally smart enough to generally see that government should be kept limited...  And plenty of those same people then trust the government with killing its own citizens.

 ???

I vacillate on this issue a bit, blowing hot & cold.  Mostly on the question:
Ought gov't have the right to kill its own citizens, after they have been rendered (mostly) a non-threat to the rest of the citizenry?
 


Arguing in favor of the DP:
1. Obviously constitutional and traditional punishment at time of the founding.  Any BS 8th Amendment hand-waving is just that, since the DP was considered neither cruel nor unusual.  Want it to be unconstitutional?  Pass an amendment.
2. Obvious efficacy, in both the immediate case and the effect on others down the road. 
--2a. In the immediate case, the murderer will certainly not murder again. 
--2b. Given the number of convicted murderers and the probabilities of any one of them murdering again (in or out of prison), we could off several innocent folks per year and still come out ahead.
--2c. With even the most minimal discouraging effect on the population at large, we could off MANY innocents and still come out ahead.
--2d.  To sum up, the math is a stone bitch against the anti-DP argument and does need to be taken into account.
3. No good, hard cases of innocent men being executed.  Their best cases are pretty weak.  The latest cause celeb was a dude here in Texas.  It is one of those cases if you hear only the Innocent Project's side, dude was innocent [Arson investigation is junk science!!!!!(1)].  But, there was enough evidence of other sorts to convict dude. 






(1) True, it is junk.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: The Justice System in the crosshairs...
« Reply #32 on: April 05, 2013, 01:23:54 PM »
OTOH, I'm not convinced that life in prison is not cruel and unusual punishment  =|

Maybe it's usual now but I don't think it was usual when the BoR was written.
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

brimic

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,270
Re: The Justice System in the crosshairs...
« Reply #33 on: April 05, 2013, 01:30:53 PM »
Quote
3. No good, hard cases of innocent men being executed.  Their best cases are pretty weak.  The latest cause celeb was a dude here in Texas.  It is one of those cases if you hear only the Innocent Project's side, dude was innocent [Arson investigation is junk science!!!!!(1)].  But, there was enough evidence of other sorts to convict dude.

Junk science is a good description, as it is for much of forensic 'science.'

I just saw a recent case printed in the newspaper in my state where a rural tavern owner has been exonerated for arson after being in prison for 5 years. It turned out that he was convicted of burning down his own tavern for insurance fraud because, get this- the fire investigators could not find a natural, mechanical, or electrical source of the fire so they ruled the fire had to be arson.
Talk about guilty until proven innocent.
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: The Justice System in the crosshairs...
« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2013, 01:37:00 PM »
Talk about guilty until proven innocent.

what part of the world?

never mind  found it  seems he had a "less than optimal" lawyer.

and there is a considerable difference between exoneration and getting a new trial




sweet jeebus!!
when did insurance companies get to ramrod criminal investigations?
http://host.madison.com/news/local/crime_and_courts/burning-questions-trial-conviction-justice-or-frame-up/article_9a96f5da-8023-11e0-b0d2-001cc4c03286.html



i hope mr awe finds a hungry landshark
« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 01:51:20 PM by cassandra and sara's daddy »
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

T.O.M.

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,409
Re: The Justice System in the crosshairs...
« Reply #35 on: April 05, 2013, 01:42:53 PM »
Back when I was a prosecutor, I took an arson investigation class.  They taught that you start with the presumption of arson and then rule it out only if you can't find another cause.  Not a good way to run an investigation, with a conclusion in mind and then just trying to verify that conclusion...
No, I'm not mtnbkr.  ;)

a.k.a. "our resident Legal Smeagol."...thanks BryanP
"Anybody can give legal advice - but only licensed attorneys can sell it."...vaskidmark

brimic

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,270
Re: The Justice System in the crosshairs...
« Reply #36 on: April 05, 2013, 02:22:54 PM »
Talk about guilty until proven innocent.

what part of the world?

never mind  found it  seems he had a "less than optimal" lawyer.

and there is a considerable difference between exoneration and getting a new trial




sweet jeebus!!
when did insurance companies get to ramrod criminal investigations?
http://host.madison.com/news/local/crime_and_courts/burning-questions-trial-conviction-justice-or-frame-up/article_9a96f5da-8023-11e0-b0d2-001cc4c03286.html



i hope mr awe finds a hungry landshark

Good catch and good correction. I had only seen a maller blurb in a different papoer about it a week or so ago.
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: The Justice System in the crosshairs...
« Reply #37 on: April 05, 2013, 03:18:53 PM »
Good catch and good correction. I had only seen a maller blurb in a different papoer about it a week or so ago.

it seems hes a great example of why a GOOD  lawyer is required

i would love to know more details
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: The Justice System in the crosshairs...
« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2013, 09:54:31 AM »
Turns out #1 suspect in teh Kaufman County prosecutors' deaths was a cow-orker done wrong by those prossy-cute-ers.

http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/2013/04/why_officials_think_eric_lyle.php?ref=trending

Quote
After Kaufman County District Attorney Mike McLelland and his wife were gunned down in their home last month, just two months after McLelland's deputy, assistant DA Mark Hasse, was murdered in broad daylight, law enforcement officials pledged to search far and wide to bring the killer, or killers, to justice.

Turns out, he may have been hiding in their own backyard.

The focus of the case has now turned to Eric Lyle Williams, a former Kaufman County Justice of the Peace who was arrested Saturday morning on a charge of making a terroristic threat. That's a relatively minor charge, a misdemeanor in most cases and the same one that's already gotten two non-murderers thrown in jail. But his bond's been set at an astronomically high $3 million, and the Morning News, which has done an excellent job covering the case, reports that Williams will be charged with the murders this week.

To answer your questions about Williams and his possible involvement in the Kaufman County killings, we've put together this Q&A.

Read the Q&A for more.

Now, wonder at how when this was possibly a white supremacist hit job the MSM was all over it like a chihuahua on a pack of hot dogs, but now...<crickets>.



Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,449
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: The Justice System in the crosshairs...
« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2013, 10:28:08 AM »
I notice a lot of conservatives that are generally smart enough to generally see that government should be kept limited...  And plenty of those same people then trust the government with killing its own citizens.

 ???


I notice a lot of gun-owners are generally smart enough to realize that people can be violent, and attack one another for no reason...  And plenty of those same people then trust others to carry guns, and kill people.
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: The Justice System in the crosshairs...
« Reply #40 on: April 16, 2013, 10:38:07 AM »

I notice a lot of gun-owners are generally smart enough to realize that people can be violent, and attack one another for no reason...  And plenty of those same people then trust others to carry guns, and kill people.

Yeah, I just trust the government with guns even less than I do the garden variety moron  ;)
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,449
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: The Justice System in the crosshairs...
« Reply #41 on: April 16, 2013, 11:38:09 AM »
I'll have you know I'm an exceptional moron.
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: The Justice System in the crosshairs...
« Reply #42 on: April 16, 2013, 11:49:33 AM »
I'll have you know I'm an exceptional moron.

Run, fistful, run!
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,667
Re: The Justice System in the crosshairs...
« Reply #43 on: April 16, 2013, 12:12:22 PM »
I'll have you know I'm an exceptional moron.
Should we be scared? Maybe . . .  http://manybooks.net/titles/piperh1894918949-8.html
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

T.O.M.

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,409
Re: The Justice System in the crosshairs...
« Reply #44 on: April 17, 2013, 04:14:07 PM »
UPDATE:
Maybe I need to change the title of the thread to Justice System targets Justice System...

http://news.yahoo.com/wife-ex-judge-confesses-texas-da-slayings-174649731.html

Long story short. D.A. prosecuted judge for theft.  Judge loses job.  His wife loses his mind, and apparently took out hits on the Assistant D.A. and the D.A. in retaliation.  I gotta say it was more believable when it was a drug hit.  But, as they say, truth is strager than fiction, because fiction has to be believable.  The truth has no such restrictions.
No, I'm not mtnbkr.  ;)

a.k.a. "our resident Legal Smeagol."...thanks BryanP
"Anybody can give legal advice - but only licensed attorneys can sell it."...vaskidmark

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: The Justice System in the crosshairs...
« Reply #45 on: April 17, 2013, 04:47:38 PM »
Quote
His wife loses his mind

Had she borrowed it because she didn't have one of her own  ???
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,449
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: The Justice System in the crosshairs...
« Reply #46 on: April 17, 2013, 05:16:12 PM »
I've heard that a lot of wives have helped husbands lose their minds.
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

T.O.M.

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,409
Re: The Justice System in the crosshairs...
« Reply #47 on: April 17, 2013, 09:34:58 PM »
Minds and other parts, right?   :lol:

My bad. Thinking faster than I can type.
No, I'm not mtnbkr.  ;)

a.k.a. "our resident Legal Smeagol."...thanks BryanP
"Anybody can give legal advice - but only licensed attorneys can sell it."...vaskidmark

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,317
Re: The Justice System in the crosshairs...
« Reply #48 on: April 18, 2013, 09:04:14 AM »
For all the bad experience and lowered expectations I have for police, I find most judges to be reasonable, based on sitting in court for a few hours listening to them deal patiently with yahoos, and other legal issues.

I haven't.

I have served as an expert witness in multiple, non-criminal cases. My experience is that the judges were in over their heads when one side or the other brought in technical experts (me, and others on both sides) and VERY obviously didn't want to have to pay attention to things they couldn't hope to understand on a good day. Trying to express my testimony in non-technical terms that judges and juries could understand takes more time, and the judges (in my experience) didn't want that, either -- they were on a schedule and having an expert actually try to explain the technical jargon generated caustic remarks of the "Just get on with it" genre.

In one case, a plumber testifying for the opposition stated that the bathrooms of two condo units backed up against one another. I testified that the bathroom of one backed up to the kitchen of the other, and I showed plans to document it. Faced with conflicting testimony such as this (mind you, the plumber was not an expert witness, he was a fact witness -- it was his torch that caused the fire), the judge couldn't read plans so he decided the plumber must know what he's talking about. (Mind you, the plumber was only in the one unit that caught fire. I went through the entire building afterwards, in order to determine why what should have been a minor fire in one unit took out half the building.)

Had another case where I gave expert testimony that the soonest a public housing authority could get their back-up boiler repaired was going to be about three months, because the boiler was an older unit and the replacement parts were being custom-made by a specialty fabricator in Buffalo, NY. The judge nonetheless order the housing authority to complete the repair within three weeks.

I have known a couple of judges personally who seemed intelligent and reasonable, but I haven't seen them in action. I don't know if they remain intelligent and reasonable once they don their black robes. It may be that those robes provide a special form of shielding from whatever cosmic rays transmit reason and intelligence.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

T.O.M.

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,409
Re: The Justice System in the crosshairs...
« Reply #49 on: April 18, 2013, 09:38:46 PM »
Well, if you judge me by my typing on this dam virtual  keybord, I think Hawk may be rjght.   ;)
No, I'm not mtnbkr.  ;)

a.k.a. "our resident Legal Smeagol."...thanks BryanP
"Anybody can give legal advice - but only licensed attorneys can sell it."...vaskidmark