TommyGunn:
Read some history about the region and its cultures. Had our leadership done so, they would not have proceeded as they did.
The Closed Circle
http://www.amazon.com/Closed-Circle-Interpretation-Edward-Burlingame-ebook/dp/B002EVP4V8/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1415517945&sr=1-1&keywords=the+closed+circle
This is a nice and gentle look at Arab culture and explains why Arab countries are as they are.
And now I Am Going To Do It. What follows, TG, you can only lay at your own feet, especially after invoking chickenshinola charges of racism and incompetence on the part of our SF, big Army, contractors, and such.
Rooster, had you actually READ what I wrote you would know I was NOT accusing any of our soldiers -- or contractors -- of being bigots.
I
was accusing PEOPLE ON
THIS FORUM of being bigots.
Perhaps though I overspoke my case.
The idea that "culture is destiny" is something I will deal with below.
I like how you completely ignore what people tell you when it's inconvenient and doesn't fit with your worldview. Also, lovely job of putting words in my mouth.
The administration must be filled with people just like you, completely unwilling to face the reality of culture they are dealing with. This is precisely why US efforts in the Middle East are doomed to failure.
Another idiotic response. I am NOT ignoring it. I am disputing the apparent belief that it is inevitable dogma that because (apparently)
"Arab armies, with only a few exceptions – exceptional because of a peculiar make up in those few cases – stink. I mean they just suck. They’re awful," That such will always be the case, and cannot ever be overcome or rectified.
See, the Arabs are what the sociologists like to call, "amoral familists." This means that they are usually incapable of forming bonds of love and loyalty with anyone not a blood relation. Even there, degree of blood relation determines where loyalty legitimately lies. The saying in the area is, as written above, "Me and my brother against my cousin; me, my brother and my cousin against the world." This not only allows one to extort baksheesh from non-relations, but clouds every military unit that is not blood/clan based.
The arabs are hardly the only ones with this culture. It is a handicap sure but when the appropriate bashing together of heads it can be defeated.
Certainly we will never be the ones who can, or will defeat it, because we don't believe it CAN be defeated, and people who don't believe something can happen will never put forth any effort to make it happen.
Therefor it is a self-fulfilling prophesy.
If yooz guyz would read my earlier posts this is what I've been saying all along.
Don't forget "Insh'allah", (which is like "mañana," but without the sense of urgency) which makes it somewhat impious to train really well since it is all the will of God anyway. Add in a set of social values that despise and loathe doing physical labor.
Oh, you mean they PROCRASTINATE -- just like 98% of the rest of humanity does, except they make a religious practice out of it. That also explains why true leadership qualities are so rare, or partially explains it, I should say.
You are comparing ISIS terrorists to Patton's Third Army?
ISIS is more appropriatly an "army" than a group of disjointed group of terrorists. The ONLY point in the Third Army comparison was to show they are acting in a coherent, aggressive manner. I am certainly NOT comparing Patton's goals, ethics, or morality, or any part of any American Army, past or present, with the morality or ethics of ISIS.
Al Qaeda terrorists, as well as others, operated in "cells," more comparable really to espionage agents than an army. ISIS has discarded this in its formation into what is really, now (IMHO) an army.
Yes, the soldiers that joined the army in WWII did have an in depth background in honor, courage, and self sacrifice and fighting for our country. It is part of our culture and traditions. Not all cultures have that in the same way.
Perhaps only in a primitive form. In between WW1 and 2 we actually were a pretty isolationist country and there remained many who thought we ought to let the europeans fix their own problems as Hitler rose to power. FDR & Churchill, and a few others realized it wasn't going to work out that nicely, and when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, it spurred many to join and fight. But, we still required a draft and would never have filled the ranks of what was to be the largest army America had during WW2 up to that point in history without the aforsaid draft.
I am sure it is possible group of Iraqis could be trained and formed into a competent force. I am sure we have military trainers who could do it given time and a completely free hand. Given what we know of our ROE's, I really doubt they had full control.
I totally agree with the above. We're NOT going to do it.
What I have been doing in this thread is to make a THEORETICAL argument, and possibly I have been doing a poor job of it. Maybe if I HAD done a better job people like Roo_ster and Scout26, et al, wouldn't be pouncing on me like starved leopards at a fresh kill.
I get that other peoples have a different culture. Sometimes that's for the good ....sometimes it has detrimental aspects, as apparently it does in the Arab culture (
Add in the fantasy mindset. Don't forget "Insh'allah", [which is like "mañana," but without the sense of urgency]), but what I am saying is that a people need not be a slave to that history.
Convincing such people to escape the shackles of that culture is a daunting task for sure. I never thought otherwise.
George Santayana remarked "
those who forget the lessons of history are forever doomed to repeat its mistakes." Some in our government could learn from that, but the Iraqis could be taught that as well. They're not incapable of learning, but it will take better teachers than we seem to want to be to teach it.
That's why I originally said:
"1.) We should not have gone into Iraq in the first place.Gee, I really hope the guys here who've been beating on me will remember that.
Also, Look at the short History of Israel. They have beaten every army that has attacked them. It isn't genetics. The US is made up of people from all over, but we have seen good service in our military from every race as far as I know.
Yes. Israelies have a thousand year history of persecution behind them, and when Hitler tried to exterminate the Jewish Peoples, down to the last man, woman, child, zygote with his "Final Solution" the Jewish Ppeople formed Israel under the "spiritual banner" of "never again." And they have been forced by their surrounding neighbors (many of whom were Nazi sympathizers during the "Dritte Reich") to enforce that by force of arms ever since.
It isn't genetics.
But is should be.PEACE, gentlebeings, okay? Peace?
