How Soon Before "Full Scale" Ops Again?

[Frank Castle]

I think training cats, would be easier. We could not get them to understand, the basic fundamentals of marksmanship.


Afghan National Army (ANA) Atghar 2011

[TommyGunn]

I think training cats, would be easier. We could not get them to understand, the basic fundamentals of marksmanship.

   

THAT'S the mistake we made!!!!  We should have armed the Iraqis with 10,000,000 cats! 

[dogmush]

I never thought the Iraq War would end pretty.
I was just thinking that we could have done it right if we'd have been willing to stay and bounce enough heads off each other to convince the disparate Iraqi tribes to get their *&^%$ act together.  Should we have been able to we could show that they were not condemned by their culture to a chaotic future.
But we can't, and they are.

The very fact that you think that is possible shows you still don't get it.  Don't feel bad, I didn't either until I had to work with Arabs.  Nothing on this Earth could make them get their act together.  They LITERALLY think it's impious and sinful to try hard.  It show a lack of faith.

ISIS looks halfway decent because 1. they are engaging in jihad, which allows more definate purpose and effort, and 2. they haven't met any non-Arab troops yet. 

You still have no real grasp of the gulf between our cultures.  In varying level's of politeness the folks here with hands on experiance in that gulf are trying to tell you, and you are refusing to grok.

One last time: Arabs are culturally unable to field a disciplined and professional, modern military.  Raiders, Light infantry, and pirates yes, but not an Army.  Trying to make them do so will waste your time, and annoy them.

[TommyGunn]

The very fact that you think that is possible shows you still don't get it.  Don't feel bad, I didn't either until I had to work with Arabs.  Nothing on this Earth could make them get their act together.  They LITERALLY think it's impious and sinful to try hard.  It show a lack of faith.

ISIS looks halfway decent because 1. they are engaging in jihad, which allows more definate purpose and effort, and 2. they haven't met any non-Arab troops yet.  

You still have no real grasp of the gulf between our cultures.  In varying level's of politeness the folks here with hands on experiance in that gulf are trying to tell you, and you are refusing to grok.

One last time: Arabs are culturally unable to field a disciplined and professional, modern military.  Raiders, Light infantry, and pirates yes, but not an Army.  Trying to make them do so will waste your time, and annoy them.

So you tried and couldn't make it happen.
 "They LITERALLY think it's impious and sinful to try hard.  It show(s) a lack of faith."  ~~ Did you, or anyone else try to destroy this ethic?    Sometimes you have to destroy before you build.  If you were unable to, or prevented from doing it because superiors said "no" or politicians said "no" then I can understand that it simply isn't going to happen, but this only enforces my previous point that Washington is to blame, really (leaving aside for a moment any culteral indoctrinations on the part of the arabs) for not allowing it or allocating the time for it.
Destroying a pre-existing ethic is painful, ugly, dirty, sometimes rotten and nasty nasty, but if it is something that is preventing progress (and the ethic you mention does seem to be working that way [!!!!!!]) then it has to be destroyed before anything positive is to be done.

"The very fact that you think that is possible shows you still don't get it."
At the point where I wrote the quote you cite I was becoming quite convinced that never, ever, was it going to happen that we'd be able to "bounce heads together" and create a coherent Iraqi fighting force. 
The bottom line is that humans are our own worst enemy at times.   Culture can doom a people if it is allowed to....and it's awful damned hard to overcome, and we won't be the ones to do it.
So please don't continue the false meme that I want to continue to try to make things work in Iraq.  I didn't before and I don't now.

As for ISIS, I have no doubt should we send in troops we could deal with them.  Probably without much difficulty.  I just don't think airstrikes alone will be enough.   And I also don't trust Obama to ... well, do much of anything, really, except to paint a pretty political picture.

[Fitz]

That's the point, guy... We DID try. For EIGHT *expletive deleted*ing YEARS


If you got any ideas that the best trained Soldiers, Sf teams, etc didn't think of, then get off APS and start a PMC. Because clearly you know something that the absolute BEST do not.

You're not listening. Quoting people, cranking up your font size, and repeating nonsense again and again doesn't mean you aren't completely talking out your ass

[White Horseradish]

So you tried and couldn't make it happen. Did you, or anyone else try to destroy this ethic?    Sometimes you have to destroy before you build.  

How? Has anyone ever managed to do this? What would it take for your ethic to be destroyed?

I was just thinking that we could have done it right if we'd have been willing to stay and bounce enough heads off each other to convince the disparate Iraqi tribes to get their *&^%$ act together.  

Once again, do you have an example of this happening? Ever? Do you seriously support US staying there for multiple generations? Or wiping out enough adults to matter?

[dogmush]

Holy Hell, this is why it took me three days to calm down enough to answer this crap.

We would have to kill every adult and raise a generation not as Arabs.  You're not going to break down 2 thousand years of engrained culture.  Yes, we tried, no it didn't work.  Yes, we tried multiple ways. No it didn't work.

The ONLY way to counter cultural tribalisim at the level Arabs have it is to destroy the culture completly.  Ethnic cleansing.  Seriously.  And even if our politicans felt like that was appropriate, I, as a US soldier, wouldn't do it.

[TommyGunn]

How? Has anyone ever managed to do this? What would it take for your ethic to be destroyed?
Once again, do you have an example of this happening? Ever? Do you seriously support US staying there for multiple generations? Or wiping out enough adults to matter?

No I do NOT support US troops staying there forever -- if you had read what I have said you wouldn't ask a question like that.  As for tearing down ethics and rebuilding them that's done all the time in boot camps where soldiers are taught to act as a team, and it works.  The ethic of "me" is removed and replaced with "we."

That's the point, guy... We DID try. For EIGHT *expletive deleted*ing YEARS


If you got any ideas that the best trained Soldiers, Sf teams, etc didn't think of, then get off APS and start a PMC. Because clearly you know something that the absolute BEST do not.

You're not listening. Quoting people, cranking up your font size, and repeating nonsense again and again doesn't mean you aren't completely talking out your ass

It seems very few are listening.   And a lot of talk is coming out of a lot of asses.

You know I've said over and over again in this thread from the first post to the last that I thought going into Iraq was a mistake, and absolutly no one has mentioned that, aknowledged that or anything.    
If said over and over my argument was theoretical and would be very tough to accomplish, and we weren't going to and THAT's never been aknowledged to any extent.  
All that can be done is say I'm "quoting people and cranking up font sizes" and it "repeating nonsense."  
And I am sick of this crap.  
You stop talking out of your ass, because after all this time you're claiming I've made arguments I have never been doing, like blaiming US troops for Itaqi culture,
so YOU stop TALKING OUT OF YOUR EFFIN ass!!

[TommyGunn]

EDIT:

Hell, forget everything I have said.  No one is hearing, I am sick and tired of this pissant thread .




See you elsewhere.

[Balog]

So you tried and couldn't make it happen.
 "They LITERALLY think it's impious and sinful to try hard.  It show(s) a lack of faith."  ~~ Did you, or anyone else try to destroy this ethic?

It's not an ethic, it's a religion. I suppose forcibly converting them from Mid-East Muslim to Pennsylvania Dutch Protestant with its attendant work ethic might have been successful, but I hear that's un-PC...

I think that if we did a full scale colonization, ruled with an iron hand for a few generations, and forced the natives to adopt Western culture and religion at gun point then you could successfully field a competent Middle Eastern army in say 50-60 years. But I don't see that happening, and so would prefer to not piss away more blood and treasure to try to help a group of people who have thousands of years of fail in their very cultural institutions.

Americans are frequently accused of arrogance and hubris, and in this area (the assumption that everyone in the world needs only a minimal; exposure to our culture to shed their own and become like us) it is absolutely true.

[Fitz]

No I do NOT support US troops staying there forever -- if you had read what I have said you wouldn't ask a question like that.  As for tearing down ethics and rebuilding them that's done all the time in boot camps where soldiers are taught to act as a team, and it works.  The ethic of "me" is removed and replaced with "we."

It seems very few are listening.   And a lot of talk is coming out of a lot of asses.

You know I've said over and over again in this thread from the first post to the last that I thought going into Iraq was a mistake, and absolutly no one has mentioned that, aknowledged that or anything.    
If said over and over my argument was theoretical and would be very tough to accomplish, and we weren't going to and THAT's never been aknowledged to any extent.  
All that can be done is say I'm "quoting people and cranking up font sizes" and it "repeating nonsense."  
And I am sick of this crap.  
You stop talking out of your ass, because after all this time you're claiming I've made arguments I have never been doing, like blaiming US troops for Itaqi culture,
so YOU stop TALKING OUT OF YOUR EFFIN ass!!

And yet, you continue, even in your first goddamn paragraph, to spew platitudes about military training that you think we don't already know and haven't tried.

HOLY *expletive deleted* it. YOU MEAN I SHOULD TRAIN THEM LIKE NEW RECRUITS AND TEAR THEM DOWN, BUILDING THEM UP STRONGER.

JESUS TAPDANCING CHRIST WHY DIDNT I THINK OF THAT

You're not blaming troops for Iraqi culture, you're assuming we are all morons.

[Balog]

EDIT:

Hell, forget everything I have said.  No one is hearing, I am sick and tired of this pissant thread .




See you elsewhere.

Lulz

[Fitz]

But hey, maybe we didn't try hard enough to make them stop willing Allah to move their bullets.

[TommyGunn]

And yet, you continue, even in your first goddamn paragraph, to spew platitudes about military training that you think we don't already know and haven't tried.

HOLY *expletive deleted* it. YOU MEAN I SHOULD TRAIN THEM LIKE NEW RECRUITS AND TEAR THEM DOWN, BUILDING THEM UP STRONGER.

JESUS TAPDANCING CHRIST WHY DIDNT I THINK OF THAT

You're not blaming troops for Iraqi culture, you're assuming we are all morons.

[Fitz]

Lulz

He will be back. If not this thread, in another, to remind us all that he knows better than thousands of experienced warriors how to make the Iraqi army self sufficient

[TommyGunn]

He will be back. If not this thread, in another, to remind us all that he knows better than thousands of experienced warriors how to make the Iraqi army self sufficient

[Frank Castle]

I think that if we did a full scale colonization, ruled with an iron hand for a few generations, and forced the natives to adopt Western culture and religion at gun point then you could successfully field a competent Middle Eastern army in say 50-60 years.

British Empire already tried this.

[Balog]

British Empire already tried this.

They should've tried harder. 

[roo_ster]

It's not an ethic, it's a religion. I suppose forcibly converting them from Mid-East Muslim to Pennsylvania Dutch Protestant with its attendant work ethic might have been successful, but I hear that's un-PC...

I think that if we did a full scale colonization, ruled with an iron hand for a few generations, and forced the natives to adopt Western culture and religion at gun point then you could successfully field a competent Middle Eastern army in say 50-60 years. But I don't see that happening, and so would prefer to not piss away more blood and treasure to try to help a group of people who have thousands of years of fail in their very cultural institutions.

Americans are frequently accused of arrogance and hubris, and in this area (the assumption that everyone in the world needs only a minimal; exposure to our culture to shed their own and become like us) it is absolutely true.

British Empire already tried this.

They should've tried harder. 

The Ottoman Turks had a pretty damn strong warrior ethic that was, relative to the Arabs, practical and trainable.  They ruled the ME for ~500 years and could not make the Arabs into a close-combat force.  Of course, they had only limited methods of persuasion at their disposal.  Like crucifixion.  Impaling.  Strangling.  Genocide.  And various & sundry other tortures. 

[Fitz]

He keeps making kissy faces at me.


I think I've identified why he loves the Iraqis so much. They're into that, too

[TommyGunn]

He keeps making kissy faces at me.


I think I've identified why he loves the Iraqis so much. They're into that, too

 

[Jamisjockey]

1) enough on the name calling
2) I'm just gonna leave this here
http://youtu.be/cCga2xMIitw


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Balog]

The Ottoman Turks had a pretty damn strong warrior ethic that was, relative to the Arabs, practical and trainable.  They ruled the ME for ~500 years and could not make the Arabs into a close-combat force.  Of course, they had only limited methods of persuasion at their disposal.  Like crucifixion.  Impaling.  Strangling.  Genocide.  And various & sundry other tortures. 

They were still Moslems. One would need to treat Islam the same way the Brits treated the Thuggee. Note: I am not advocating for this, merely pointing out how it could be done.

[SADShooter]

1) enough on the name calling
2) I'm just gonna leave this here
http://youtu.be/cCga2xMIitw


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm convinced. If you can't get 11 otherwise healthy males to successfully perform a basic exercise to a 3-step repetitive cadence, not much else is going to happen in a training context.

[White Horseradish]

No I do NOT support US troops staying there forever

Oh. My. God. TommyGunn answered half a question. Of course, the rest of the questions were completely ignored. Especially the all-important "How?".

Also, I didn't say "forever". I said "a couple of generations".

As for tearing down ethics and rebuilding them that's done all the time in boot camps where soldiers are taught to act as a team, and it works.  The ethic of "me" is removed and replaced with "we."

That is not in any way comparable. Boot camps do not uproot a recruit's entire culture and religion. They start with people who at the very least consider themselves Americans.

What would it take for you to stop considering yourself an American?  

Hell, forget everything I have said.  No one is hearing, I am sick and tired of this pissant thread .

We hear you. You just aren't saying anything of substance and continuously ignore direct and simple questions.