Death row inmate: I'm too fat to execute

[DJJ]

It's been hinted at already, but nitrogen asphyxiation is the way to go. Nitrogen's easy to get, and you don't even need a "chamber" - just a more-or-less well sealed room and a little bit of positive pressure. When it's done, you just open a window. Plus, unlike with the more destructive methods, the organs are unharmed and ready for transplant.

[Bigjake]

Better ask Nitrogen If he's taken the hippocratic oath 

[The Annoyed Man]

Isn't dying of hypoxia incredibly painful and horrific though?

[Bigjake]

Isn't dying of hypoxia incredibly painful and horrific though?

Similar to death by rape/stabbing/ stranglation.....?

[Firethorn]

Isn't dying of hypoxia incredibly painful and horrific though?

Your body doesn't actually sense oxygen much, it senses CO2 levels.  When your body is screaming 'BREATHE!!!' at you, it's not screaming due to lack of oxygen, it's screaming about CO2 levels.  In water you get the breath reflex because you're not resperating - therefore not flushing CO2.  In a pure nitrogen atmosphere, you'll still be respirating CO2, thus no real 'BREATHE!!!' reflex until you're well into lack of oxygen levels - resulting in unconsciousness.

[The Annoyed Man]

Isn't dying of hypoxia incredibly painful and horrific though?

Similar to death by rape/stabbing/ stranglation.....?

No argument there.  I was only asking for the sake of theoretical discussion of whether the 8A would prohibit it.

In a pure nitrogen atmosphere, you'll still be respirating CO2, thus no real 'BREATHE!!!' reflex until you're well into lack of oxygen levels - resulting in unconsciousness.

Wow.  That's kind of scary actually when I think about the summer I worked making balloon animals for kids and teaching them how to do it.  I had a big Nitrogen tank and one day the baloon tilt/valve thing got stuck and kept letting out nitrogen.  I had two classes back to back, so I just let it be and waited until they were over to report it to management and get a replacement part.

I didn't realize at the time that it was potentially dangerous.  I was 17 or something at the time.

[Firethorn]

I didn't realize at the time that it was potentially dangerous.  I was 17 or something at the time.

It really depends on how fast the leak was, how big of a tank, and how well sealed the rooms were.

But yes, people have died from this stuff - and normally scientist types who should know better, sadly enough.  It's a really sneaky death.  Pressures good, CO2 is being flushed, temperature's good. Air might or might not be unusually dry.  Depends on what flushed out the O2.

Hypoxia - as experienced by mountain climbers and others in low pressure atmospheres are normally experiencing a raft of other issues at the same time, such as hypothermia and dehydration.  Not to mention we're often talking about days of marginal pressure existence.

In normal temperatures, normal pressures and such, as oxygen levels drop you'll likely feel tired and wanting to take a nap...  If the room isn't cleared or you hauled out quickly enough, it can lead to death.  In extreme cases, you'll just fall unconscious in minutes, and be dead in a few more.

By the way, a nitrogen bottle for filling balloons sounds weird to me.  I'm more used to helium tanks.  Plain air works well enough if you don't need the balloon to float.  I'd tend to think that you'd go with plain compressed air.  That way all you need is an air compressor and appropriate pressure reducers so you don't insta-blow the balloons.

[Bigjake]

Cheese, I agree with you on the 8A point, I just don't think it applies here.  Death by lethal injection seems to be the MOST painless death that ever was.

One rotten, fat, rapping, murdering SOB complaining that it may be unpleasant doesn't bother me in the least.

[wmenorr67]

The key here is cruel and unusual.  It could be cruel but not unusual or be unusual but not cruel, then it is ok.  Just can't have both.  All the usual forms used in the past to execute someone isn't unusual so therefore should be legal.  They might be cruel but hey they aren't unusual.

[Firethorn]

The key here is cruel and unusal.  It could be cruel but not unusal or be unusal but not cruel, then it is ok.  Just can't have both.  All the usual forms used in the past to execute someone isn't unusal so therefore should be legal.  They might be cruel but hey they aren't unusal.

Well, I'd argue that while drawing and quartering wasn't unusual, it is extremely unusual now.  Guillotine, hanging, firing squad, electrocution, all are far more common.

The general standard I'd shoot for is 'effective, without being over the top'.  20 years for purse snatching might be effective, but cruel in the sense that 10 years is just as effective, as is 5 years for 99% of offenders.

Ineffective punishment is cruel, especially after a certain point.  I'm all for unusual punishment, as long as it's effective.

Basically, punishments need to be in line with the crime.

[alex_trebek]

I didn't realize at the time that it was potentially dangerous.  I was 17 or something at the time.

It really depends on how fast the leak was, how big of a tank, and how well sealed the rooms were.

But yes, people have died from this stuff - and normally scientist types who should know better, sadly enough.  It's a really sneaky death.  Pressures good, CO2 is being flushed, temperature's good. Air might or might not be unusually dry.  Depends on what flushed out the O2.

Hypoxia - as experienced by mountain climbers and others in low pressure atmospheres are normally experiencing a raft of other issues at the same time, such as hypothermia and dehydration.  Not to mention we're often talking about days of marginal pressure existence.

In normal temperatures, normal pressures and such, as oxygen levels drop you'll likely feel tired and wanting to take a nap...  If the room isn't cleared or you hauled out quickly enough, it can lead to death.  In extreme cases, you'll just fall unconscious in minutes, and be dead in a few more.

By the way, a nitrogen bottle for filling balloons sounds weird to me.  I'm more used to helium tanks.  Plain air works well enough if you don't need the balloon to float.  I'd tend to think that you'd go with plain compressed air.  That way all you need is an air compressor and appropriate pressure reducers so you don't insta-blow the balloons.

Agreed.  You probably weren't in danger at all.  In fact if you have ever closed the garage on a running car, you were in more danger there. 

The only deaths from nitrogen poisoning I have heard of are from people who should know better, but don't follow the proper rules.  Nitrogen is often used as a blanket in process tanks, entering a sealed tank without checking the O2 levels (and failing to obtain a confined space entry permit) would cause certain death. 

One mildly entertaining case I heard of concerned inspectors.  The were inspecting a brand-new heat exchanger by climbing into it (the only way to inspect it).  Well the factory that made the HEX filled it with N2 to prevent corrosion.  First guy went down immediately.  Second guy violated safety protocols, and tried to rescue the first guy.  This went until the fourth wised up, and waited for personnel to arrive.

In other words, it takes quite a bit of N2 to poison you.  Normal air is about 21% O2 78% N2.  You feel dizzy at less than 19.5% O2.  Immediately pass out at around < 15% IIRC.  That would of required one BIG leak in your case (especially if it is a big room).

[The Annoyed Man]

By the way, a nitrogen bottle for filling balloons sounds weird to me.

Yeah, it wasn't my choice.  It was what the camp ordered for me.  Helium was out because balloon animals aren't supposed to float.  However, I would have preferred either a tank of compressed air, or an electric pump.

The leak was running at the speed of enough air to fill a normal size balloon every 20 seconds or so.  I was more worried about running out of pressure to fill balloons at the time than anything else.

I'll bet it takes more Nitrogen to kill though.

[Firethorn]

I'll bet it takes more Nitrogen to kill though.

At that rate you would have needed to be in an unusually small, well sealed closet with the leaking tank.

Nitrogen isn't toxic at all, less than water even - the hazard comes in that, just like water, it tends to displace the oxygen we need in large enough quantities.  It does take large quantities though.

The reason that our bodies detect CO2 levels far more than O2 levels is that, in nature the first one is a much higher priority.

If you take a pressure vessel, let's say a spaceship, with an atmosphere that starts out more or less atmospheric, you'll succumb to CO2 poisoning long before you run out of O2.  You'd want to add CO2 scrubbers to the pressure vessel before you'd add additional O2 cylinders.

[agricola]

I'll bet it takes more Nitrogen to kill though.

At that rate you would have needed to be in an unusually small, well sealed closet with the leaking tank.

Nitrogen isn't toxic at all, less than water even - the hazard comes in that, just like water, it tends to displace the oxygen we need in large enough quantities.  It does take large quantities though.

The reason that our bodies detect CO2 levels far more than O2 levels is that, in nature the first one is a much higher priority.

If you take a pressure vessel, let's say a spaceship, with an atmosphere that starts out more or less atmospheric, you'll succumb to CO2 poisoning long before you run out of O2.  You'd want to add CO2 scrubbers to the pressure vessel before you'd add additional O2 cylinders.

This is true - that is what killed the ninety-nine unfortunate men who were trapped aboard HMS Thetis when she sank in Liverpool Bay. 

[MillCreek]

If you take a pressure vessel, let's say a spaceship, with an atmosphere that starts out more or less atmospheric, you'll succumb to CO2 poisoning long before you run out of O2.  You'd want to add CO2 scrubbers to the pressure vessel before you'd add additional O2 cylinders.

We will also recall that a very similar problem occurred on Apollo 13.  It was the CO2 buildup that would have killed them before the lack of oxygen.  But the improvised scrubbers saved the day.  That was a great movie, by the way.

[MechAg94]

With a slow N2 leak, the O2 level would fall slow enough that you would likely feel dizzy and have a chance at realizing the danger.  However, most people would not realize it until it was worse.  

With a pure N2 atmosphere and no O2, you would most likely pass out after one or two breathes.  I have heard the O2 is actually drawn out of your blood speeding unconsciousness.  Earlier I had suggested putting the guy on Nitrous Oxide to put him out of it first, that way even if there is a brief moment of suffocation, he won't notice.  

I have also heard of fatalities at chemical plants.  For example, we use dryer bed vessels that use waste nitrogen.  I heard of an incident at a competitor site in Mexico where 3 guys went to the top of one of those tanks and opened it up to do something.  The N2 atmosphere was slowing venting from the tank and extends a few feet from the manhole.  The first guy got too close and passed out and fell in.  The 2nd guy tried to grab him and fell in.  The 3rd guy thought he could grab the guy's leg and ended up passing out and falling in also.  The night shift found them several hours later after they noticed their work permit hadn't been turned in and someone went to look for them.  

There have been other incidents.  Confined spaces are of particular interest.  In our plants, anytime work is done in a confined space such as a vessel or firebox, a 3 man rescue team is on site with equipment to pull people out if necessary.  The only incident I can think of at our plants is once a welder passed out in a hole.  He was pulled out immediately and was okay.  He was welding with argon purge gas in a hole with no ventilation and one entrance.  The hazard was completely missed with the job was permitted.  The company paid to have a safety video made and sent copies to every plant in the country and everyone had a special safety meeting to review it.  No one was fired that time.  Most chemical companies take that stuff seriously.  

At the plant I work at now, we make carbon monoxide so that adds a whole other dimension since it is toxic also.

Sorry I went so long.  

[alex_trebek]

At the plant I work at now, we make carbon monoxide so that adds a whole other dimension since it is toxic also.

Yeah since for what ever reason CO is preferred over O2 in hemoglobin, if given a choice.  Doesn't take much at all to kill someone, especially if they smoke.  I think smoker's blood is already at ~10% CO.  That is why I think simply vent furnace exhaust to a gas chamber would suffice as a form of execution.  You would have to schedule executions for the winter, that is the down side.  Since the furnace is already running anyway, it would eliminate the cost of buying the lethal drugs/whatever.

[MechAg94]

If you put them IN the furnace, that gives you some added efficiency there. 

[seeker_two]

If you put them IN the furnace, that gives you some added efficiency there. 

Yeah....but what about the carbon footprint?.....

[MillCreek]

Noting the ongoing discussion about nitrogen, I don't think anyone has posted this yet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_asphyxiation

And here is the original article by Mr. Creque suggesting this method:  http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_n17_v47/ai_17374449

[The Annoyed Man]

that's actually what we're talking about right now.

I actually rather liked the idea somebody here mentioned of using some kind of strong radiation source to essentially instantaneously fry and vaporize the prisoner.

[doc2rn]

Since he is so hefty why cant we be sensable and feed him to the lions?

A child rapist deserves no better than draw-and-quartering.

[The Annoyed Man]

A child rapist deserves no better than draw-and-quartering.

Agreed that the guy in question is less respectable than the dog *expletive deleted*it I stepped in this morning.

No doubt about whether or not he deserves to die IMO.  The only question is whether the issues his attorney is bringing to light would warrant a different method of execution.

[MechAg94]

A child rapist deserves no better than draw-and-quartering.

Agreed that the guy in question is less respectable than the dog *expletive deleted*it I stepped in this morning.

No doubt about whether or not he deserves to die IMO.  The only question is whether the issues his attorney is bringing to light would warrant a different method of execution.

IMO, they don't.  But there is no reason not to consider alternatives if they could improve the process and make it independent of obesity or other factors.   

I think asphyxiation would work well and have no mess or toxic chemicals to work with.  It would simply require a few inexpensive air monitors to make sure everyone else in the area remained safe.  They would probably need to pay for calibration checks of those devices monthly or ahead of each execution. 

The question to me is would the FDA require them to use Nitrogen NF grade gas that acceptable for hospital or food service use?  Can't just use silly old industrial grade Nitrogen that is the same thing and often more pure.  They would have to have the proper paperwork and signatures. 

[The Annoyed Man]

what about starting it off with a mask of halothane, then desflurane for the anesthesia..... then while still using desflurane, fill the chamber with nitrogen and cut off the mask flow?  Surely that would be considered humane and not cruel and unusual?