It is getting Ugly in Greece....

[Jamie B]

http://news.yahoo.com/bailout-chaos-pm-papademos-tells-greece-005703038.html

Greek lawmakers are still trying to pass an austerity bill.

Many Greek citizens are tired of austerity measures (again) and are rioting with Molotov cocktails.

The UE, especially Germany, are tired of coughing up another bail-out plan that Greece will probably ignore.

If the new austerity bill and EU bailout fail, Greek will go into bankruptcy.

I wonder why the EU is still trying to help at this point?

[French G.]

They're trying to help because the cascade of failure is going to disassemble the EU. I get a giggle these days out of the financial news, everyone wants to be hopeful like the recovery is on. The other shoe has not dropped yet only because it was thrown really hard.

[agricola]

I wonder why the EU is still trying to help at this point?

Because if the Greeks walk out of the Euro - and choose bankrupcy rather than austerity - others will follow in their wake, and the Euro will probably collapse, with the EU (or at least its current form) following along shortly after.   You would then start to think that questions will be asked as to what on earth European leaders have been doing for the past forty years, and why so many of them are so comfortably off.

[Jamie B]

So the terrible Greek economy is that necessary for the survival of the EU?

Or is it more symbolic in making sure that no country exits?

It seems that Germany is the only EU member that is forking out the money for this bailout.

It also seems that there is great risk that the Greeks will piss away this bailout just like 5 years ago.

Interesting dynamics.

[De Selby]

It's a great system they have going - wealthy bankers make money in deals of questionable morality with Greek government officials, then scream "live within your means!" to the great majority of greeks who had no part or say in that borrowing. 

Bankers get wealthy, Government officials get their accounts in those same banks, and the vast majority of people in Greece have education, health, and other services that they'd considered part of their income cut to nothing.

The Euro is a financial scam; they'd be right to walk out on it. 

[roo_ster]

So the terrible Greek economy is that necessary for the survival of the EU?

Or is it more symbolic in making sure that no country exits?

It seems that Germany is the only EU member that is forking out the money for this bailout.

It also seems that there is great risk that the Greeks will piss away this bailout just like 5 years ago.

Interesting dynamics.

Lotsa banks in other parts of EUroland own Greek debt.  They will get it, uh, Greek-style if Greece goes bankrupt.  Same with some American banks. 

The only questions are:
* Do the banks get any lube before getting Greek (negotiated writeoffs via bailouts)?
* Do the banks get Greek dry & rough (bankruptcy)?
In the former case, the taxpayers from more responsible and productive nations get a good Greeking, too.

As far as DS's comment and the pore, pore Greek people getting duped into voting for spend & borrow commies & socialists who finally ran out of OPM and credit...it is laughable.

The Greeks lived, for a while, like the more productive euros in the north of Europe for a while, but had to borrow to do so.  They, like petulant children with explosives, now don't want to pay for what they have consumed and live within their means.

[De Selby]

Who were all these greeks who "lived like northern euros", and also had a say in the borrowing practices of their Government? 

It's a fundamentally flawed analysis to say "the greeks" did this as if Greece were an upright, transparent country that let everyone have a say and doled out the spoils of borrowing on a democratic basis.  It was the opposite; but now they want to dole out the costs of the borrowing evenly.

It should be the individuals who made these decisions, and the individuals who directly benefitted from them, that pay it back.  Not the Greek masses who had as little choice in the matter as they do now.

[dogmush]

It should be the individuals who made these decisions, and the individuals who directly benefitted from them, that pay it back.  Not the Greek masses who had as little choice in the matter as they do now.

The folks facing "Austerity Measures"  (I love that euphemism) would seem to be at least some of the folks that benefited.  Or else their pensions would still be funded.

On the decision making, well the problem with nations is that lots of folks pay for the decisions of few.  Still beats not having nations.

[French G.]

They chose socialists who promised them more, more, more so I'd say that yeah, they had a say in their gov'ts borrowing practices. Elect stupid crooks, win stupid crook prizes.

[lee n. field]

Elect stupid crooks, win stupid crook prizes.

A good epitaph for Illinois.

[agricola]

Who were all these greeks who "lived like northern euros", and also had a say in the borrowing practices of their Government? 

It's a fundamentally flawed analysis to say "the greeks" did this as if Greece were an upright, transparent country that let everyone have a say and doled out the spoils of borrowing on a democratic basis.  It was the opposite; but now they want to dole out the costs of the borrowing evenly.

It should be the individuals who made these decisions, and the individuals who directly benefitted from them, that pay it back.  Not the Greek masses who had as little choice in the matter as they do now.

This post contains a great deal of sense, apart from the "they want to dole out the costs of the borrowing evenly" bit.  After all, the same people who benefitted from what the Greek political class did with regards to the Euro (the borrowing, the voluntary nature of taxation at that level, and the financial japes and scams which were necessary to get into the Euro in the first place) are the same people who are emphatically not going to be hit with the austerity stick.

[longeyes]

The globalists won't let mudmen stay mudmen.

[RevDisk]

Who were all these greeks who "lived like northern euros", and also had a say in the borrowing practices of their Government? 

It's a fundamentally flawed analysis to say "the greeks" did this as if Greece were an upright, transparent country that let everyone have a say and doled out the spoils of borrowing on a democratic basis.  It was the opposite; but now they want to dole out the costs of the borrowing evenly.

It should be the individuals who made these decisions, and the individuals who directly benefitted from them, that pay it back.  Not the Greek masses who had as little choice in the matter as they do now.

No doubt the Greek process is as rigged as our election system. But there is still a level of accountability, De Selby. The Greek populace supported overspending. Not in the particulars, but the people wanted the bacon.

You can try to blame the bankers, and I agree that there are plenty of short sighted morons in the executive ranks of many banks. Know how hard it was to find a bank that would put in writing that they would not resell my mortgage? AND I paid for that, with an extra half percentage. I bought a house within my price range. No banker forced me at gunpoint to borrow excessively, and in a manner that was hostile to the overall economy.

Blaming bankers is only partially correct. Without government support, they would not be able to make stupid decisions. Well, more than once in any spectacular manner. Because they'd go bankrupt or insolvent.

[MicroBalrog]

So is a default actually in the cards?

[RevDisk]

So is a default actually in the cards?

Hopefully. It will make folks less likely to invest in governments with poor financial management.

[Perd Hapley]

Lotsa banks in other parts of EUroland own Greek debt.  They will get it, uh, Greek-style if Greece goes bankrupt.  Same with some American banks. 

I think you meant "Italian-style" (bunga-bunga).

[MicroBalrog]

Hopefully. It will make folks less likely to invest in governments with poor financial management.

I'd be very sympathethic if they just went "screw you and screw your loans", at this stage. I'd rather have a sovereign welfare state than one subordinate to foreign masters and local unelected bureaucrats.

[MillCreek]

A few hours ago, the Greek.government agreed to the austerity package. Stocks dshould do better tomorrow.

[agricola]

A few hours ago, the Greek.government agreed to the austerity package. Stocks dshould do better tomorrow.

See you in a fortnight for the next Greek thread, then.

 

[Jamie B]

Given Greece's recent economic history, passing austerity measures and actually following them are 2 different animals.

[roo_ster]

No doubt the Greek process is as rigged as our election system. But there is still a level of accountability, De Selby. The Greek populace supported overspending. Not in the particulars, but the people wanted the bacon.

You can try to blame the bankers, and I agree that there are plenty of short sighted morons in the executive ranks of many banks. Know how hard it was to find a bank that would put in writing that they would not resell my mortgage? AND I paid for that, with an extra half percentage. I bought a house within my price range. No banker forced me at gunpoint to borrow excessively, and in a manner that was hostile to the overall economy.

Blaming bankers is only partially correct. Without government support, they would not be able to make stupid decisions. Well, more than once in any spectacular manner. Because they'd go bankrupt or insolvent.

I did not pay to not have my loan re-sold.  When time came to see how much money we could borrow, we excluded my wife's income and then only borrowed 2/3 of what they said they'd be fine lending us...'cause I was not fine with borrowing that much.

The idea was that either wife or self could keep it together if one of us were unemployed and to not be a slave to the house.

Hopefully. It will make folks less likely to invest in governments with poor financial management.

I do hope Greece tanks sooner rather than later, for tank they will. 

Bailouts of financial institutions have become so common it is now expected.  This must change.

[HankB]

. . . I bought a house within my price range. No banker forced me at gunpoint to borrow excessively, and in a manner that was hostile to the overall economy.

Just for the heck of it, I've looked at a couple of the "on line" mortgage calculators, and entered my finances.

Every one of them suggests I would qualify for a loan that is 2x the total value of my home.

I don't live in a dump - 4br 3ba 1 story in a decent suburb - but it's not a McMansion either. AND . . . it has the virtue of being paid for, which means a lot since things are getting a little dodgy at work.

I manage my finances and live within my means, so why the <expletive> <expletive> <string of expletives> can't the <expletive> governments of the world do the same? <expletive!>

[kgbsquirrel]

Just for the heck of it, I've looked at a couple of the "on line" mortgage calculators, and entered my finances.

Every one of them suggests I would qualify for a loan that is 2x the total value of my home.

I don't live in a dump - 4br 3ba 1 story in a decent suburb - but it's not a McMansion either. AND . . . it has the virtue of being paid for, which means a lot since things are getting a little dodgy at work.

I manage my finances and live within my means, so why the <expletive> <expletive> <string of expletives> can't the <expletive> governments of the world do the same? <expletive!>

The politicians in spending other peoples' money are divorced from the responsibilities and repercussions that are normally associated from gross overspending, over-borrowing and general mismanagement. A person who behaves very badly financially can have their property seized, be thrown out of their home, imprisoned, etc. Those things do not happen to the politicians who engage in the same behavior at the nation-state level and thus the most immediate and personal negative-incentives that would normally restrain even a person who lacks an inherent ethical regard for financial soundness are absent.

[Waitone]

The rule of the game in years past is a government gets into hock up to its eyeballs all with the approval of voters, politicians, bureaucrats, and "financial community".  When it becomes apparent said government can not sustain the price of sustaining accumulated loans the borrowers go to the "financial community" and asks for relief.  The "FC" responds by adjusting the length of loans and/or the interest rate with one goal in mind. . . . .keep interest payments coming in.  Anyone who has ever tried to buy a car on credit knows the rules of the game. 

Political, economic and financial circumstances in effect for Greece and virtually every other western government will see to it the usual play will not work.  The only alternative is to reduce the principal of the loans wither through voluntary action by "FC" or by default, something the "FC" will not want to do.

Now is it right (morally, economically, financially, politically) to force the "FC" to take the haircut?  I do know a whole lot individuals benefited handsomely from the gamesmanship and I think at some level they too need to participate in the pain.

[longeyes]

Globalization, the religion of the "financial community," has one model for Everywhere.  Some nations were made to be backward, materially poor, self-sufficient, and, one hopes, modestly happy.  This of course is not enough for the global power-brokers and cartel manipulators for whom everyone and everything is just another leveraged loan profit center.