It is getting Ugly in Greece....

[De Selby]

Austerity measures have never lifted a country out of budget and economic woes - they should be looking to places like Argentina and Venezuela for models.   

This is what happens when market fundamentalism meets sovereignty.  They keep prescribing cures whose only foreseeable outcome is to impoverish the entire country.

[AJ Dual]

Austerity measures have never lifted a country out of budget and economic woes - they should be looking to places like Argentina and Venezuela for models.   

This is what happens when market fundamentalism meets sovereignty.  They keep prescribing cures whose only foreseeable outcome is to impoverish the entire country.

Nor has a nation ever taxed its populace and economy into prosperity either.

[MillCreek]

As mentioned above, we should all be watching Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Spain to see how this all shakes out.  I think Agricola has nailed it.  Especially interesting will be the upcoming Greek elections and if the new government will follow the agreements of the preceding government.

[MillCreek]

Nor has a nation ever taxed its populace and economy into prosperity either.

As with so many other things in life, I suspect moderation is the key in macroeconomics as well.

[MicroBalrog]

Austerity measures have never lifted a country out of budget and economic woes - they should be looking to places like Argentina and Venezuela for models.   

This is what happens when market fundamentalism meets sovereignty.  They keep prescribing cures whose only foreseeable outcome is to impoverish the entire country.

spening less money - such an insane notion for getting out of debt.

[De Selby]

spening less money - such an insane notion for getting out of debt.

It's a proven failure under the circumstances - no investment means no growth, and growth is the only way out of the hole.

austerity measures have never been proven to promote growth. 

For all the crap spending gets, Argentina actually is much better off for having ignored similar demands from the IMF, and Venezuela essentially doubled its economy with socialist programs.   

Don't let the facts get in the way of sermons about markets, though.   "Markets are efficient!" is the economic version of "that's racist!"

[Ron]

It's a proven failure under the circumstances - no investment means no growth, and growth is the only way out of the hole.

austerity measures have never been proven to promote growth. 

For all the crap spending gets, Argentina actually is much better off for having ignored similar demands from the IMF, and Venezuela essentially doubled its economy with socialist programs.   

Don't let the facts get in the way of sermons about markets, though.   "Markets are efficient!" is the economic version of "that's racist!"

Governments don't invest, they tax the citizens and then spend, sometimes on worthy programs.

Venezuela? Maybe we should start seizing all the multi-national oil facilities here in the USA and nationalize them so we can grow our economy.

 

[De Selby]

Ron, government spending can constitute investment - examples abound.

You may scoff at Chavez's methods, but he's literally halved the number of people in poverty, and added ten times the number of doctors to his country compared to what was there previously.

He did this while dismantling centralized Government and dramatically increasing the power of local governments to decide their own issues, including spending. 

But the euro bankers don't count that as success - its not a model to follow because it doesn't make bankers rich.  That's not development!

[TommyGunn]

Ron, government spending can constitute investment - examples abound.

You may scoff at Chavez's methods, but he's literally halved the number of people in poverty, and added ten times the number of doctors to his country compared to what was there previously.

He did this while dismantling centralized Government and dramatically increasing the power of local governments to decide their own issues, including spending. 

But the euro bankers don't count that as success - its not a model to follow because it doesn't make bankers rich.  That's not development!

Chavez is a ***** communist.  He'll be no more successful at producing a vibrant society than was Castro.

It's a proven failure under the circumstances - no investment means no growth, and growth is the only way out of the hole.

austerity measures have never been proven to promote growth. 

For all the crap spending gets, Argentina actually is much better off for having ignored similar demands from the IMF, and Venezuela essentially doubled its economy with socialist programs.   

Don't let the facts get in the way of sermons about markets, though.   "Markets are efficient!" is the economic version of "that's racist!"

Markets are more efficient than government.  It was Reagan who got America out of the Carter Malaise in the early 80s by reducing  the tax burden.  Even Clinton's retroactive tax hike couldn't dampen the economic boon that resulted from the R&D of the Reagan years.
In contrast, Obama has spent billions on "stimulus" and much of it has gone to waste. 
FDR's mad spending during the Great Depression didn't help ameliorate the economic woes of the day either.
Sorry De Selby, there's just nothing to back up your irrational statist view of economics.

[Monkeyleg]

It's a proven failure under the circumstances - no investment means no growth, and growth is the only way out of the hole.

Joe Biden was right. We have to spend more money to keep from going bankrupt.

[De Selby]

Tommy, I note you aren't disputing the results ofmchavez's policies - using a bad label doesn't change the fact that he already actually achieved results.  It's nonsense to allege that he won't better the Venezuelan economy;  he already did.

Monkeyleg, that shouldn't be such a strange concept for a businessman - if you don't spend on things that generate income, youll make none.

[TommyGunn]

Tommy, I note you aren't disputing the results ofmchavez's policies - using a bad label doesn't change the fact that he already actually achieved results.  It's nonsense to allege that he won't better the Venezuelan economy;  he already did.

Monkeyleg, that shouldn't be such a strange concept for a businessman - if you don't spend on things that generate income, youll make none.

Not any results I approve of if grabbing land and taking over radio stations and generally acting like a tyrant (which he is).  I have visited Venezuela and it was a rich and vibrant country when I was there given all the oil it had.  Chavez is pissing all that away on military cr@p which he doesn't need and his country is an utter mess compared to what it was.  I don't know where the h*** you get your information from.
Before long Venezuela will go the way of the former U.S.S.R. as is usually the way when a country adopts a top down controlled economy.  
I honestly think you are from a different planet, sometimes, De Selby.......

[Monkeyleg]

Monkeyleg, that shouldn't be such a strange concept for a businessman - if you don't spend on things that generate income, youll make none.

But government doesn't generate income. People and businesses generate income, some portion of which is taken by government in the form of taxes to spend on things useful and not so useful.*

Are you saying that Obama, Biden, et al should have waited until the economy got worse before spending trillions to boost the economy? Stimuli I and II haven't helped. Is that because the economy wasn't bad enough?


*It should be noted that the government does run some businesses. For example, in 1991 the IRS seized The Mustang Ranch, a legal brothel located about 25 or so miles east of Carson City, Nevada. The brothel had opened in the 1970's and became one of the best known brothels in the world (thanks to good PR). The IRS seized it because of back taxes owed, and has been running it ever since. Since it was taken over by the feds in '91, The Mustang Ranch has been running in the red every year. Not exactly generating income, is it?

[MicroBalrog]

It's a proven failure under the circumstances - no investment means no growth, and growth is the only way out of the hole.

austerity measures have never been proven to promote growth. 

Nothing has been "proven" to do anything. Economics is not a science.
The Soviet Union maintained GDP growth for decades - if you believe Brezhnev's economic reports, that is. This doesn't mean it wouldn't have been better off with markets.

Also, what do you define as "Austerity"?

[Blakenzy]

Before long Venezuela will go the way of the former U.S.S.R. as is usually the way when a country adopts a top down controlled economy.

Just like the USA   

[Ron]

Ron, government spending can constitute investment - examples abound.

You may scoff at Chavez's methods, but he's literally halved the number of people in poverty, and added ten times the number of doctors to his country compared to what was there previously.

He did this while dismantling centralized Government and dramatically increasing the power of local governments to decide their own issues, including spending.  

But the euro bankers don't count that as success - its not a model to follow because it doesn't make bankers rich.  That's not development!

I would say that Chavez's type of prosperity is no more sustainable than any other welfare state that spends itself into insolvency and and bankruptcy. It is not uncommon for those on the left to pine after the absolute power of dictators like Chavez. If you have absolute power you can really get things done!

Without serious free market reforms the Chavez miracle will eventually join its progenitor in the dustbin of history.

[MillCreek]

It is not uncommon for those on the left to pine after the absolute power of dictators like Chavez. If you have absolute power you can really get things done!

Boy, ain't that the truth.

[Balog]

Pointing at Chavez as an example of prosperity is like admiring the man with the big house and fancy new car, even if he's living on credit cards and his three mortgages and will inevitably go bankrupt.

[roo_ster]

From my POV, it is best to let Greece sink, along with all the financial institutions that over-invested in Greek debt.

Maybe next time, banks won't be so quick to loan money to basket case countries or will only do so at real risk-adjusted rates that make the borrowers think twice.

[Monkeyleg]

Pointing at Chavez as an example of prosperity is like admiring the man with the big house and fancy new car, even if he's living on credit cards and his three mortgages and will inevitably go bankrupt.

I'd say it's more like admiring the mafia boss with the big house and fancy new car, even though he's going to wind up in jail or at the bottom of a river.

[agricola]

I'd say it's more like admiring the mafia boss with the big house and fancy new car, even though he's going to wind up in jail or at the bottom of a river.

Switzerland is probably a safer bet.

[AJ Dual]

Ron, government spending can constitute investment - examples abound.

You may scoff at Chavez's methods, but he's literally halved the number of people in poverty, and added ten times the number of doctors to his country compared to what was there previously.

He did this while dismantling centralized Government and dramatically increasing the power of local governments to decide their own issues, including spending. 

But the euro bankers don't count that as success - its not a model to follow because it doesn't make bankers rich.  That's not development!

[longeyes]

Let them eat olives.

[De Selby]

I'd say it's more like admiring the mafia boss with the big house and fancy new car, even though he's going to wind up in jail or at the bottom of a river.

How is this an image of Chavez?   Far from perfect, but he does actually run fair elections and abide by the results.   Winning elections and then implementing what you campaigned on (especially when ou do it by emphasizing local government, as Chavez does) is not dictatorial.

Tommygunn, what's the evil you think Chavez is visiting on Venezuelans?  There can be no doubt that they are on average richer, healthier, and better educated today than prior to his election.  Nor that Venezuela actually has free elections, something that wasn't the case in the past either.

I think the rants against Chavez are based on his clownish behaviour and rhetoric, and not on his actual results, which have so far been good for most Venezuelans.

[De Selby]

Nothing has been "proven" to do anything. Economics is not a science.
The Soviet Union maintained GDP growth for decades - if you believe Brezhnev's economic reports, that is. This doesn't mean it wouldn't have been better off with markets.

Also, what do you define as "Austerity"?

I'd be happy to see any "real" numbers about the economic hardships wrought by Chavez - and, again, the balanced budget/pro business model is what preceded him.   There's no rational way to say that system would be better, because we already have a record with it.


Austerity means deep cuts in social spending (meaning spending that delivers goods and services to the majority of the population), without corresponding increases in payments to those same people.  Those funds are then used to pay creditors of the government instead.

Argentina was given a Greek prescription not too long ago - they ignored it and are better off for having done so.