Author Topic: The Angry, Under-taxed Wealthy  (Read 13205 times)

Ben

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The Angry, Under-taxed Wealthy
« on: April 08, 2010, 10:43:01 AM »
The mainstream media is getting more and more like The Onion every day...

Of interest to me is that most of those interviewed appear to have inherited, versus earned wealth.

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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/06/AR2010040603743.html

For the wealthy, less in taxes is not always more

By Dana Milbank
Wednesday, April 7, 2010; A02

You thought only conservatives got mad about taxes?

Tea partiers, eat your hearts out: A group of liberals got together Tuesday and proved that they, too, can have a tax rebellion. But theirs is a little bit different: They want to pay more taxes.

"I'm in favor of higher taxes on people like me," declared Eric Schoenberg, who is sitting on an investment banking fortune. He complained about "my absurdly low tax rates."

"We're calling on other wealthy taxpayers to join us," said paper-mill heir Mike Lapham, "to send the message to Congress and President Obama that it's time to roll back the tax cuts on upper-income taxpayers."

"I would with pleasure sacrifice the income," agreed millionaire entrepreneur Jeffrey Hollender.

The rich are different.

In another era, the millionaires on Tuesday's conference call might have been called "limousine liberals." But that label no longer applies. Now any wealthy liberal worth his certified-organic sea salt is driving a Prius.

For them, Obama's plan to "spread the wealth" (by raising taxes on families earning more than $250,000) is too conservative. "The Obama plan we don't think goes far enough," Lapham protested. "We think probably more like the top 5 percent should have their taxes raised." That would be those above $200,000. "Or go beyond that," he suggested.

With April 15 a week away, many Americans are feeling right about now that they are paying entirely too much. But the millionaires say they see the beginning of a grass-roots movement of the angry under-taxed wealthy.

"The bottom line is the public is on our side," said Brian Miller, executive director of United for a Fair Economy, which is organizing the anti-anti-tax rebellion. As evidence, he pointed to a Quinnipiac University poll from March that found 60 percent of Americans favored raising taxes on those earning more than $250,000. This is not surprising: Americans generally favor raising taxes on the rich, as long as they are not defined as rich themselves.

But Miller also pointed to a surprising finding in the poll: Among families earning more than $250,000, fully 64 percent favor raising taxes on themselves. This part was surprising -- but possibly suspect. Only 65 of the 1,907 people polled were in that income group, too small a sample for solid conclusions.

Still, the millionaires on the call get credit for putting (some of) their money where their mouths are. They are among 50 families with net assets of more than $1 million to take a "tax fairness" pledge -- donating the amount they saved from Bush tax cuts to organizations fighting for the repeal of the Bush tax cuts. According to a study by Spectrem Group, 7.8 million households in the United States have assets of more than $1 million -- so that leaves 7,799,950 millionaire households yet to take the pledge.

Even so, the pro-tax protesters will probably get their wish. The Bush tax cuts are set to expire at the end of the year, and the odds are high that Congress will not renew them for those earning more than $250,000. That means the tax fairness pledge is probably unnecessary -- although it's a handy fundraising tool for advocacy groups. "We need many more folks, especially rich folks like us . . . to join the cause," urged Marnie Thompson, a relative pauper in the group because her family income is $160,000 to $240,000 a year.

Of course, if millionaires really want to pay higher taxes, there's nothing stopping them. The Treasury Department Web site even accepts contributions by credit card to pay the public debt.

There's also nothing to stop the millionaires from paying the tax obligations of, say, Washington Post columnists.

But then they wouldn't have the satisfaction of giving their tax-cut proceeds to the pro-tax movement.

"Over the past four years," Schoenberg said, "I donated over $200,000 that I had received in tax cuts." And he thinks it's time for "my fellow wealthy Americans to join me." His $200,000, after all, won't do much to ease a federal debt of $12,000,000,000,000.

His donation will, however, ease the sense of guilt that comes with great wealth, described poignantly by the millionaires:

"In 1865, my great-great-grandfather Samuel Pruyn founded a paper mill on the banks of the Hudson River in Glens Falls, New York," Lapham explained.

Judy Pigott, an industrial heiress on the call, added her wish that her income, "mostly unearned income, be taxed at a rate that returns to the common good that I have received by a privilege."

Confessed Hollender, who now runs the Seventh Generation natural products company: "I grew up in Manhattan on Park Avenue in a 10-room apartment."

As tea parties go, this one was decidedly high tea.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: The Angry, Under-taxed Wealthy
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2010, 10:53:09 AM »
Nothing stops any of these guys from donating money above and beyond their share of tax, to the national debt.  They can do it right on their 1040 form.

They don't seem to grasp the concept of tax = monopoly of force, and tax = if you don't pay, men with guns will kill you.
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makattak

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Re: The Angry, Under-taxed Wealthy
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2010, 10:53:18 AM »
You know what?

Let's do that. 100% tax on ALL inherited wealth. 100% tax on all gifts from parents to children over $5,000.

Let's take everything these ungrateful little whelps didn't earn and throw them to the market. Make them earn their money.

You feel like you didn't earn it? Perfect. We have a solution: Pick up a shovel and get in the mine.

Also, no more of the "trust" crap. We know it's a gift. Your trust fund is gone. Go get a job.

Somehow I think they'd stop whining.
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So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

longeyes

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Re: The Angry, Under-taxed Wealthy
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2010, 12:04:02 PM »
How the neck yearns for the guillotine.

Fascinating. =D
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Re: The Angry, Under-taxed Wealthy
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2010, 12:10:28 PM »
White guilt gone wild. :facepalm:
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TechMan

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Re: The Angry, Under-taxed Wealthy
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2010, 01:35:05 PM »
What are they smoking/taking/drinking and can I have some of it?  =D  Truly a loony bunch.
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Monkeyleg

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Re: The Angry, Under-taxed Wealthy
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2010, 01:46:59 PM »
I wonder how much Obama is paying these people?

Ned Hamford

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Re: The Angry, Under-taxed Wealthy
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2010, 02:12:01 PM »
Oh sweet googly, That WASN'T the Onion!?!?

How lazy do you have to be in where you don't even want to choose who you give your money to?

Have a few mil laying around, pick a school district, give it a grant.  You get a little bronze rectangle somewhere in the building and directly effect a few thousand lives. 

It is one of my long term hopes to give grants to a few of the schools I've gone to for the specific impact of students never having to pay for official copies of their records.  It was actually one of the biggest hassles, filing out paperwork and then being promised a mailing in a week.  I know if I ever get enough money to throw around I can personally end that blight.  Request, ID, official stamp, 3 taps on the Hamford Bronze, and well wishes for the day.

I just can't wrap my head around the idea of people so lazy and uninvolved they can't even pick things to impact.
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MrRezister

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Re: The Angry, Under-taxed Wealthy
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2010, 02:27:57 PM »
It must be a hell of a charmed life, to have more money than you know what to do with, and not even be able to find a worthy charity to donate to.

The really mind-boggling thing for me is that these MORONS actually trust the government to spend their money more efficiently than they could themselves.  These are the kind of idiots who make life worse for all of us.  You want to pay more taxes?  GO RIGHT AHEAD!  JUST STOP TELLING THE GOVERNMENT THAT I WANT TO DO THE SAME, A-HOLE!!!
He never brought you an unbalanced budget, which is a perennial joke. He never voted himself a wage increase and, to this day, gives back part of his salary every year. He has always voted to preserve the Constitution, cut government spending, lower healthcare costs, end the war on drugs, secure our borders with immigration reform and protect our civil liberties.

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Re: The Angry, Under-taxed Wealthy
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2010, 03:07:25 PM »
How the neck yearns for the guillotine.

Fascinating. =D
Horrifying (FTFY) :O :O :O
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grampster

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Re: The Angry, Under-taxed Wealthy
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2010, 03:30:16 PM »
Doncha just love how some of the mega rich pontificate about how money doesn't mean that much?  I have a around 10 million falling oak leaves in the fall.  They don't mean much to me either.  Obama and his minions can have 'em all.

Generally, I love millionaires and billionaires.  I'd like it if they didn't have to pay any taxes as long as they could show productive use of their luchre in the marketplace.  They tend to do things with their money that allows me the opportunity to gather a bit of what they have sown. 

It seems to me they have a bit more value to the Republic than those who've never worked a day in their life except to game the system.
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Seenterman

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Re: The Angry, Under-taxed Wealthy
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2010, 03:56:32 PM »
Tax em more!

The nation’s top 1% of households own more than half the nation’s stocks, according to the Federal Reserve. They also control more than $16 trillion in wealth — more than the bottom 90%.

Quote
In 2007, the top 1 percent of tax returns paid 40.4 percent of all federal individual income taxes and earned 22.8 percent of adjusted gross income. Both of those figures—share of income and share of taxes paid—are significantly higher than they were in 2004 when the top 1 percent earned 19 percent of adjusted gross income (AGI) and paid 36.9 percent of federal individual income taxes.

The 2007 numbers show that the top 1 percent’s income and tax shares reached all-time highs for the third year in a row. That is likely to reverse direction when data from recessionary 2008 is published a year from now.

For the first time this year, we are also presenting data on the top 0.1% of tax returns (the top 10 percent of the top 1 percent). This 10 percent of the returns in the top 1 percent amounts to only 141,000 tax returns but accounts for nearly 12 percent of the adjusted gross income earned and approximately 20 percent of the nation's federal individual income taxes. The average income for a tax return in this top 0.1 percent is $7.4 million, while the average amount of income tax paid is $1.6 million, indicating an average effective individual income tax rate of 21.5 percent. This very top income group actually has a lower average effective tax rate than the rest of the top 1 percent of returns because these extremely high-income returns are more likely to have income from capital gains and dividends, which are typically taxed at lower rates. (Note that in the case of capital gains and dividends, in most cases the income has already been taxed once by the corporate income tax, which is not included here.)

http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html


My income is taxed at 38%, how the hell is it that people making millions more than me are paying a smaller percentage?  Is that fair?

You guys know that in 1944 -1945 the top income tax rate was 94%!!

http://www.truthandpolitics.org/top-rates.php

It shouldn't be based on such an arbitrary number such as households making more than 250k a year.  That isn't all that rich, but the top 1% should have a higher tax rate than me not a lower tax rate! Why wouldn't a sliding tax rate fair for everyone?  As long as it wasn't ridiculous.

Quote
I'd like it if they didn't have to pay any taxes as long as they could show productive use of their luchre in the marketplace.

So people with the most money, shouldn't pay any taxes.  I'm guessing taking 38 percent of someones pay check is fine if there only making 50k a year but WHOA if their making 500k a year they need all of it! How ass backwards is that.


Balog

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Re: The Angry, Under-taxed Wealthy
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2010, 04:10:42 PM »
Seenterman: so your argumetn is that if someone works hard, makes lots of money, and then has the temerity to invest wisely they should be punished? Envy is a terrible thing, and the basis of all Marxist class warfare. The "evil rich" acquired their money by providing goods and services people want. What is the problem with that again?
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makattak

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Re: The Angry, Under-taxed Wealthy
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2010, 04:23:48 PM »
Seenterman: so your argumetn is that if someone works hard, makes lots of money, and then has the temerity to invest wisely they should be punished? Envy is a terrible thing, and the basis of all Marxist class warfare. The "evil rich" acquired their money by providing goods and services people want. What is the problem with that again?

There are two reasons leftist give:

1) They only got it by stealing from other people's productivity! (Explanation: Either they believe Marxist crap or are convinced that the only way to make money is a con game and the rich must be better at it than they are.)

2) They only got it through luck! (Explanation: The talents, intelligence, and determination of the rich versus the poor is unevenly distributed and only attributable to random genetics. Thus, anyone who is "better" than anyone else doesn't really DESERVE that money. This is leftists wanting to play God.)
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Perd Hapley

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Re: The Angry, Under-taxed Wealthy
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2010, 04:41:45 PM »
I owe several hundred in taxes this year.  Maybe I should send them all a form letter, and give them the opportunity to pay a little more. 
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Perd Hapley

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Re: The Angry, Under-taxed Wealthy
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2010, 04:44:05 PM »
The nation’s top 1% of households own more than half the nation’s stocks, according to the Federal Reserve. They also control more than $16 trillion in wealth — more than the bottom 90%.


That's why they are "the wealthy," isn't it?   ;/
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MechAg94

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Re: The Angry, Under-taxed Wealthy
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2010, 05:21:56 PM »
Seenterman, your INCOME is taxed at 38%.  Their INCOME is taxed at a high rate also.  HOWEVER, their total income is not just normal income, but capital gains, dividends, and all sorts of other tax shelter options.  They probably have businesses that take a loss also.  They hire people to make sure they pay less in taxes which you and I have less ability to do.  Our Income tax system is full of loopholes that Congressmen put in their just for rich guys like those, IMO.  On the other side of that, much of the money they have has already been taxes as income once.  We have to be careful how we look at that or it might bite us. 

IMO, if you want good opinions about taxes, talk to someone who is trying to get rich, not someone who is already there.  For all we know, the guy already there is trying to put up barriers to prevent people from reaching his level.

Medved had a guy on that was spouting that nonsense yesterday.  When asked about making donations he claimed it wouldn't be enough and we had to raise taxes on everyone.  The other part he neglected to say was that he wouldn't stop using deductions and tax shelters to pay less.  He also made an absurd statement about how much the Bush tax cuts were "costing" all of us.  He also refused to comment on reducing spending.
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Balog

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Re: The Angry, Under-taxed Wealthy
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2010, 05:51:25 PM »
If you invest carefully, it's those low capital gains taxes that will allow you to build wealth. Spend more than you make, rack up debt, and don't invest and you'll be poor no matter how harshly fed.gov punishes the successful.
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Re: The Angry, Under-taxed Wealthy
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2010, 08:31:05 PM »
Has to be satire. Has to be.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: The Angry, Under-taxed Wealthy
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2010, 08:56:37 PM »
Quote
For the first time this year, we are also presenting data on the top 0.1% of tax returns (the top 10 percent of the top 1 percent). This 10 percent of the returns in the top 1 percent amounts to only 141,000 tax returns but accounts for nearly 12 percent of the adjusted gross income earned and approximately 20 percent of the nation's federal individual income taxes. The average income for a tax return in this top 0.1 percent is $7.4 million, while the average amount of income tax paid is $1.6 million, indicating an average effective individual income tax rate of 21.5 percent. This very top income group actually has a lower average effective tax rate than the rest of the top 1 percent of returns because these extremely high-income returns are more likely to have income from capital gains and dividends, which are typically taxed at lower rates. (Note that in the case of capital gains and dividends, in most cases the income has already been taxed once by the corporate income tax, which is not included here.)

Another reading of that, Seenterman:

141,000 tax returns with an average income tax paid of $1.6 million results in a net gain to the FedGov of $225.6 billion dollars.

That's the top 0.1% of tax payers.  Paying 25% of the total netted to Uncle Sam via the income tax (about $900 billion annually).

I would hazard a guess that the top 1% (not 0.1%, but ten times that amount) probably pay about $500 billion, and the top 10% probably pay about $650-700 billion.

After all, it's only the top 53% in America that pay any income taxes at all.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Nearly-half-of-US-households-apf-1105567323.html?x=0&.v=1

Remember... the TOTAL derived income from income tax is only $900 billion.

Are you in the top 53%, Seenterman?

Are you in the top 10%, Seenterman?

Are you paying YOUR fair share, Seenterman?

If every person under your roof didn't pay at least $3000 (a family of four would be $12,000), then you're not pulling your weight.

I'd say the rich paid quite handsomely already, for their family of <<whatever size, up to their own private town if they wanted>>.

I paid my $3000 per head under my roof.

Did you?

I don't think a person has a RIGHT to demand more taxes unless they are already paying a representative share of the taxes collected.

ETA:  If you didn't pay your fair share for your family, don't worry:  I was handsomely taxed by your friends so that I could "help out" and support 3 people under your roof as well as myself, via income tax.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2010, 09:04:08 PM by AZRedhawk44 »
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doczinn

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Re: The Angry, Under-taxed Wealthy
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2010, 09:25:18 PM »
Two points:

One, which grampster already mentioned, is that once you have a certain amount, it stops really being real money. Bill Gates could pay an extra 10% and never even feel it. That's not an argument to tax them more, it's a reason why some are dumb enough to want to be taxed more.

Two, also already mentioned, is that they are free to send in any amount of extra money they wish, any tie they wish. So what they're actually saying is not that they want to pay more, but that they want to force other people to pay more. Which is standard leftist stuff.
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Re: The Angry, Under-taxed Wealthy
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2010, 09:28:35 PM »
I'm sick to death of income taxes, completely.

I'd much rather tax consumption than income, as it's a lot easier to control your own tax rate that way, but that's just me as a weirdo.
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Northwoods

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Re: The Angry, Under-taxed Wealthy
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2010, 09:36:48 PM »
My income is taxed at 38%, how the hell is it that people making millions more than me are paying a smaller percentage?  Is that fair?

You're making the common mistake of confusing marginal rate with effective rate.  When I was in the 28% or 33% bracket I didn't pay that much of my entire income.  I only paid that on the $X of my income.  My effective rate might have been around 18%.  That those eeevvvviiiilll rich people are paying a 21.5% effective tax rate means that their marginal rate is necessarily higher.

Figure there's regular federal tax brackets at 10%, 15%, 25%, 28%, 33% and 36.5%, plus capital gains rates of 5% and 15% depending on which income bracket you're in, SS is only on the first $106k or so of income, etc, ad nauseum.  Subtract out whatever is allowed as a reduction to taxable income, average all that together on the remaining income and it's not terribly surprising that an effective rate of 21.5% would be the end result.

You probably pay an effective rate of something less than 20%.  If not you're probably single and have no kids.  Or you're also including state/local income tax to add some more false rage to your self-righteous rant.
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BReilley

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Re: The Angry, Under-taxed Wealthy
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2010, 09:59:56 PM »
I bet their parents and grandparents are spinning in their graves, watching their spawn piss away what they worked their lives away to earn, and were kind enough to leave behind.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: The Angry, Under-taxed Wealthy
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2010, 12:08:45 AM »
White guilt gone wild. :facepalm:
Ayup.  When you have unlimited amounts of money you didn't have to earn, intangibles like feeling good about yourself become more important than cash.