Author Topic: cell phone "records" do not need a warrant  (Read 13233 times)

Hawkmoon

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Re: cell phone "records" do not need a warrant
« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2010, 11:58:20 PM »
i think this is being determined legit cause the info they get can be had by following them . ie there is no expectation of privacy when one is in public.

I think a sizable proportion of the populace still has expectations of privacy when using their telephone, even if the telephone happens to be a cellular. Not everyone is a card-carrying member of the EFF and as up-to-speed on just how intrusive cell phones really are as people who hang out on forums that deal in civil rights and talk about how intrusive cell phones really are.

In a free society, people should not have to worry about turning off their cell phones AND removing the battery if they just want to be by themselves, without Big Brother watching their every move.
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sanglant

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Re: cell phone "records" do not need a warrant
« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2010, 12:45:48 AM »
i wonder if this will come to affect the hurdles to turning on a cellphone as a bug. =|

MicroBalrog

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Re: cell phone "records" do not need a warrant
« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2010, 09:00:53 AM »
I said the practical thing to do is not give information over to people you don't trust with said information.

This isn't an issue of 'trust' here, because the companies don't have a choice of whether they want to share the information with a third party.

Consider this as an analogy:

Suppose we had sufficient police manpower to assign a police officer to trail each and every civilian, whenever they left their homes. No doubt, a person's privacy would not be affected in a legal sense - after all, nobody in his right mind can claim an expectation of privacy in public, can they?

Yet such a scheme would obviously be inconsistent with maintaining individual liberty and a free society.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: cell phone "records" do not need a warrant
« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2010, 09:45:32 AM »
This isn't an issue of 'trust' here, because the companies don't have a choice of whether they want to share the information with a third party.

Consider this as an analogy:

Suppose we had sufficient police manpower to assign a police officer to trail each and every civilian, whenever they left their homes. No doubt, a person's privacy would not be affected in a legal sense - after all, nobody in his right mind can claim an expectation of privacy in public, can they?

Yet such a scheme would obviously be inconsistent with maintaining individual liberty and a free society.
If you know that they have no choicein the matter, that they must give up sensitive information about you, then act accordingly.  Don't give them the opportunity.

The analogy I've heard is that of choosing leaving your wallet unattended on a public park bench, then coming back hours later to find that someone has stolen it.  Who do you blame for the theft?  Do you blame the thief for doing what you know he'd do?  Or do you blame yourself for not taking better care of your valuables?

You can probably blame both, but ultimately the buck stops with you.  It's your wallet, and if you don't want it to fall into the wrong hands, it's up to you to make sure it doesn't happen.  I see the personal information issue int he same light.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2010, 09:50:00 AM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

RevDisk

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Re: cell phone "records" do not need a warrant
« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2010, 10:11:57 AM »
If you know that they have no choicein the matter, that they must give up sensitive information about you, then act accordingly.  Don't give them the opportunity.

The analogy I've heard is that of choosing leaving your wallet unattended on a public park bench, then coming back hours later to find that someone has stolen it.  Who do you blame for the theft?  Do you blame the thief for doing what you know he'd do?  Or do you blame yourself for not taking better care of your valuables?

You can probably blame both, but ultimately the buck stops with you.  It's your wallet, and if you don't want it to fall into the wrong hands, it's up to you to make sure it doesn't happen.  I see the personal information issue int he same light.

Again, you're missing the entire "Phone companies are required to log the information".   It's not voluntary.  It's the friggin law.  And it does not stop logging when you are on private property as opposed to public property.

Some folks keep on clammering, "no expectation of privacy in public".   Indeed, but this makes absolutely no distinction between being on public property or being on private property.  I haven't seen anything saying the cops can't warrantlessly wiretap your cell information when you are sitting in your home.  Why are people trying to justify this with "no expectation of privacy in public" into this when it applies to both public and private?
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CNYCacher

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Re: cell phone "records" do not need a warrant
« Reply #30 on: September 10, 2010, 10:37:56 AM »
If the police know what face of a cell you were communicating with at a certain time, and which cell your connection hands off to, how closely do they really know what your position was?
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MechAg94

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Re: cell phone "records" do not need a warrant
« Reply #31 on: September 10, 2010, 10:47:12 AM »
Would it be hard at all to build a little Faraday Cage box big enough to hold your cell phone? 
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dogmush

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Re: cell phone "records" do not need a warrant
« Reply #32 on: September 10, 2010, 10:55:02 AM »
Would it be hard at all to build a little Faraday Cage box big enough to hold your cell phone? 

No, but it might affect your ability to recieve incoming calls.  It's pretty easy not to get tracked.  The issue is I shouldn't have to disable a device that I pay quite a bit of money to have to stop the .gov from tracking my movements.  I'm not even that annoied that Verizon can track me, I have a contract with them.  It's them being forced to share that with an entity I don't have a contract with that's the problem.

(Although, if you squint just right, we do have a contract with .gov, and this is against it's spirit, if not letter)

Tallpine

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Re: cell phone "records" do not need a warrant
« Reply #33 on: September 10, 2010, 10:58:24 AM »
What, do some of you want the terrace to win?   ;/
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BrokenPaw

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Re: cell phone "records" do not need a warrant
« Reply #34 on: September 10, 2010, 12:02:32 PM »
If the police know what face of a cell you were communicating with at a certain time, and which cell your connection hands off to, how closely do they really know what your position was?

At the time of handoff, anywhere from a hundred yards to a few feet; if (for instance), you're on an interstate highway that's more or less straight and level, and you move from one tower to another, they have a pretty good guess that you're about halfway between the towers, on the highway, in the <direction>-bound lane.  But in a rural area, on curvy roads (or no roads at all), under ambiguous RF conditions, probably several hundred feet or more.

After the time of handoff, the "circle of confidence" of your position expands (at whatever rate you are able to move in that region) to include the entire sector that particular antenna serves.  That area can be anywhere up to a few square miles, again depending upon terrain.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: cell phone "records" do not need a warrant
« Reply #35 on: September 10, 2010, 12:26:43 PM »
Again, you're missing the entire "Phone companies are required to log the information".   It's not voluntary.  It's the friggin law.  And it does not stop logging when you are on private property as opposed to public property.
Can you please clarify this?  Specifically, how do your remarks relate to mine?
« Last Edit: September 10, 2010, 12:54:59 PM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

red headed stranger

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Re: cell phone "records" do not need a warrant
« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2010, 04:21:44 PM »
i think this is being determined legit cause the info they get can be had by following them . ie there is no expectation of privacy when one is in public.

I have heard that line of reasoning before. To me it doesn't wash.  The proponents of cell tracking are essentially saying "we can't afford to have a cop follow everyone, so we have to force companies to do it for us at the companies' expense." 

A police state is a police state whether you have guys following you around with a notebook or if computers are automatically collecting and storing data on your movements in computer databases. 
Those who learn from history are doomed to watch others repeat it

MicroBalrog

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Re: cell phone "records" do not need a warrant
« Reply #37 on: September 10, 2010, 05:51:59 PM »
Can you please clarify this?  Specifically, how do your remarks relate to mine?

On your rationale, do I understand correctly that it is entirely okay for the government to also track all of your phone calls (since you voluntarily agree to use a phone), all your bus movements (using, say, a RFID bus card), all your vehicle movements (using an ONStar GPS device or similar)? After all, you have voluntarily agreed to use a bus, a car, or a phone.
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Ned Hamford

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Re: cell phone "records" do not need a warrant
« Reply #38 on: September 10, 2010, 09:05:02 PM »
Well, the government believes so  =D
 :police:
 ;)
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PTK

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Re: cell phone "records" do not need a warrant
« Reply #39 on: September 11, 2010, 02:30:00 AM »
(really need to add a chin rub smiley)

Tangent moment! (And a serious question from a layman for the experts.) What is the legal difference here between voluntarily providing certain information to a utility provider in order to acquire their services and providing certain information to a doctor or lawyer for theirs'? Both the former and latter are considered voluntary actions, and you can go without either, but the latter are strongly protected by confidentiality laws. Why are these other things (utilities) that are considered voluntary but necessary parts of daily living treated so differently with regard to privacy and thus, in this case, considered exempt from 4th amendment protections?

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: cell phone "records" do not need a warrant
« Reply #40 on: September 11, 2010, 01:33:56 PM »
On your rationale, do I understand correctly that it is entirely okay for the government to also track all of your phone calls (since you voluntarily agree to use a phone), all your bus movements (using, say, a RFID bus card), all your vehicle movements (using an ONStar GPS device or similar)? After all, you have voluntarily agreed to use a bus, a car, or a phone.
Again, you're reading things into my remarks that aren't there.  I've made no value judgments about the current situation being ok or not ok.

RevDisk

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Re: cell phone "records" do not need a warrant
« Reply #41 on: September 11, 2010, 02:13:00 PM »
(really need to add a chin rub smiley)

Tangent moment! (And a serious question from a layman for the experts.) What is the legal difference here between voluntarily providing certain information to a utility provider in order to acquire their services and providing certain information to a doctor or lawyer for theirs'? Both the former and latter are considered voluntary actions, and you can go without either, but the latter are strongly protected by confidentiality laws. Why are these other things (utilities) that are considered voluntary but necessary parts of daily living treated so differently with regard to privacy and thus, in this case, considered exempt from 4th amendment protections?

Lawyer thing is covered by attorney-client privilege.  It is limited in scope, mind you.  It only covers legal guidance, see Rule 501 of the Federal Rules of Evidence for more information.  Doctor thing is covered under HIPAA.   

As for why they are treated separately than any other type of information...  There are three arguments.  Doctor and lawyer confidentiality is considered long standing tradition, and oddly that is considered an important aspect by SCOTUS.   Second is that people want their talk with doctors and lawyers to be confidential.  And third, doctors and lawyers make enough money to prevent themselves from the government most of the time to some extent.  There is no cell phone users' lobby to protect themselves from government malicious intent. 

Get enough people with enough money and you could probably get cell phone use enshrined as protected. 




Another interesting aspect I'd like to point out.  Kinda unrelated to anything anyone has yet said. 

Utilities are granted monopolies by the government due to the opinion that they are NOT voluntary and are entirely necessary for modern living.  You could argue a cell phone is unnecessary and voluntary, and you'd be somewhat correct.  But not in a legal sense.  Telecommunication carrier is considered under the law to be a utility because it is considered to be one of the natural monopolies.   A natural monopoly is when the infrastructure required to produce and deliver an 'essential' product is very expensive to build and maintain, and can add capacity at a fraction of the cost of what it would take to form a new company.  Examples would be electricity, natural gas, water, telecommunications, sewage, etc.  You could double, say, a water company's capacities for a fraction of the cost of a new company creating that capacity.

Telecommunication utility law usually does not differentiate between say, a cell phone, a landline or a DS-3 line.  It's all considered to be telecommunication.  Most of the differences in law are owing to basic physics.  There's no law against jamming or wireless interception of DS-3 connections, for instance, because it doesn't use the airwaves.  So if someone tries to argue with you that a cell phone is unnecessary, should be considered voluntary, and thus should not be accorded any legal protections (I question the logic of that assertion on its own grounds but anyways), remind them that historical public utility law entirely disagrees with him or her.

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MicroBalrog

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Re: cell phone "records" do not need a warrant
« Reply #42 on: September 11, 2010, 02:19:06 PM »
There are European countries where police cannot just randomly follow who they like, even though the people are moving in public. Perhaps this should be adopted?
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: cell phone "records" do not need a warrant
« Reply #43 on: September 11, 2010, 03:05:51 PM »
There are European countries where police cannot just randomly follow who they like, even though the people are moving in public. Perhaps this should be adopted?

where?
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kgbsquirrel

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Re: cell phone "records" do not need a warrant
« Reply #44 on: September 11, 2010, 03:10:31 PM »
Lawyer thing is covered by attorney-client privilege.  It is limited in scope, mind you.  It only covers legal guidance, see Rule 501 of the Federal Rules of Evidence for more information.  Doctor thing is covered under HIPAA.   

As for why they are treated separately than any other type of information...  There are three arguments.  Doctor and lawyer confidentiality is considered long standing tradition, and oddly that is considered an important aspect by SCOTUS.   Second is that people want their talk with doctors and lawyers to be confidential.  And third, doctors and lawyers make enough money to prevent themselves from the government most of the time to some extent.  There is no cell phone users' lobby to protect themselves from government malicious intent. 

Get enough people with enough money and you could probably get cell phone use enshrined as protected. 




Another interesting aspect I'd like to point out.  Kinda unrelated to anything anyone has yet said. 

Utilities are granted monopolies by the government due to the opinion that they are NOT voluntary and are entirely necessary for modern living.  You could argue a cell phone is unnecessary and voluntary, and you'd be somewhat correct.  But not in a legal sense.  Telecommunication carrier is considered under the law to be a utility because it is considered to be one of the natural monopolies.   A natural monopoly is when the infrastructure required to produce and deliver an 'essential' product is very expensive to build and maintain, and can add capacity at a fraction of the cost of what it would take to form a new company.  Examples would be electricity, natural gas, water, telecommunications, sewage, etc.  You could double, say, a water company's capacities for a fraction of the cost of a new company creating that capacity.

Telecommunication utility law usually does not differentiate between say, a cell phone, a landline or a DS-3 line.  It's all considered to be telecommunication.  Most of the differences in law are owing to basic physics.  There's no law against jamming or wireless interception of DS-3 connections, for instance, because it doesn't use the airwaves.  So if someone tries to argue with you that a cell phone is unnecessary, should be considered voluntary, and thus should not be accorded any legal protections (I question the logic of that assertion on its own grounds but anyways), remind them that historical public utility law entirely disagrees with him or her.



Good answer,  thought though regarding the arbitrary decision that some things should be accorded extra privacy due to "tradition": Would not the long standing tradition of privacy in communications (letters in the postal system before telegrams, telephone and now wireless) have some bearing on the privacy of telecommunication utilities? The only real difference here is the medium used to communicate with others at a distance.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: cell phone "records" do not need a warrant
« Reply #45 on: September 11, 2010, 04:26:01 PM »
there  was a thing back in the days of snail mail known as a mail cover.  they could and did look at the outside of the envelope and note addresses and such  was legit without a warrant  would seem that this is much the same as what they do with cell phone info
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Re: cell phone "records" do not need a warrant
« Reply #46 on: September 11, 2010, 05:04:39 PM »
I think we are confusing the issue here.  Yes, I can call a cell provider and get information on what towers the cell phone is hitting.  I've been fortunate with that and actually located three suicidal people before they finalized their deaths.  i was very happy I could do so.  I was helping another agency once and we didn't make it in time and found a dead person.  It wasn't fun.

As to the access of actual cell phone records, I have limited knowledge in the area of cell phone record retrieval.  I know this much.  It takes a search warrant.

I had a case where the victim was constantly called by the suspect.  I told the victim to keep a log and the next time the suspect called to tell the suspect she (the victim) did not want the suspect to call her again (required by the law here to prove harassment).  She did that and kept a log of calls that happened after that.  A week later, the victim came back and gave us a log showing about 50 more calls.

I and another officer did a search warrant application.  I already posted how hard it is to get a search warrant around here.  But in this case, we got one.  We contacted the cell phone provider which was out-of-state and they initially stone-walled us.  This was years ago by the way.  We finally went to a local cell store store owned by the cell provider and basically shut it down by serving the search warrant at that location.  The company suddenly had a change of heart and gave us what we requested.

We used that to make an arrest warrant application and finally got an arrest warrant.  After about two months, we finally arrested the suspect on 80+ counts of harassment.  But it took months to do it.  Turns out the suspect (this was a lesbian vs. straight girl incident where the lesbian thought the straight girl should be her partner when the straight girl didn't want it.)  But we did it right.  I'm sure it sucked to be the victim, but it takes time to build a case and she had a bunch of calls I wish I could have stopped her from getting.

As an aside, it turned out the suspect was investigated and later charged with various sexual assaults on minors.  It seemed once we made the harassment arrest, several high school female soccer players from two schools the suspect worked came forth and reported the assaults.  I thought that was a good ending.  I had finally caught a predator and didn't even realize it when I made my case.  I count coup on that one.

But, again, as I said in the other post, any information I go for should be checked by another branch of government.  I always thought that check-and-balance was there for a reason.  I'm a cop.  The judicial side should be watching me.  That's how it how it should work.  And there needs to be good oversight on what I can do.  I am not omnipotent.  I have to follow the rules.

However... this will be a bad thing to say, but I'm close to retirement and what the hell...  There will be some folks in my field who will abuse the system. So take care.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2010, 05:26:02 PM by 209 »

RevDisk

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Re: cell phone "records" do not need a warrant
« Reply #47 on: September 12, 2010, 01:57:32 AM »
there  was a thing back in the days of snail mail known as a mail cover.  they could and did look at the outside of the envelope and note addresses and such  was legit without a warrant  would seem that this is much the same as what they do with cell phone info

Ayep.  Caused the Church Committee.  And nope, there is a difference between looking at the outside of an envelope being sent through the USPS (a government agency) and transactions performed through a private entity.  It is clearly understood that the outside of the envelop must be looked at by the government in order for the service to be performed.

Following is outdated, please do not take to be current:  There was something called a "pen register" which recorded the phone numbers incoming/outgoing and I think duration.  From what I understand, it was easier to get a warrant for one than a wiretap.


Good answer,  thought though regarding the arbitrary decision that some things should be accorded extra privacy due to "tradition": Would not the long standing tradition of privacy in communications (letters in the postal system before telegrams, telephone and now wireless) have some bearing on the privacy of telecommunication utilities? The only real difference here is the medium used to communicate with others at a distance.

That's SCOTUS.   You could make the argument to them if you had standing and plenty of surplus money for constitutional lawyers.


I think we are confusing the issue here.  Yes, I can call a cell provider and get information on what towers the cell phone is hitting.  I've been fortunate with that and actually located three suicidal people before they finalized their deaths.  i was very happy I could do so.  I was helping another agency once and we didn't make it in time and found a dead person.  It wasn't fun.

As to the access of actual cell phone records, I have limited knowledge in the area of cell phone record retrieval.  I know this much.  It takes a search warrant.

I'm glad you managed to save those three lives.  But honestly, I'd feel better if police couldn't do that without consent or a warrant.  I have no doubt that 90% of the requests would be legit and well intended.  I'm not comfy about the remainder though.  Let's be honest, it is abused to varying extent already on a regular basis. 

I'm gonna hazard a guess and say your thing re the warrant happened before roughly 1994?  That's when CALEA was passed, though implementation took some time, naturally.
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