Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Thor on July 14, 2009, 05:22:43 PM
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Perhaps the answers WILL eventually come out, but for some reason, I'm not so optimistic, as Obama's handlers have been busy scrubbing the web of any personal documents (http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/07/obama-scrubs-the-web-of-all-birth-docs.html).
Grapevine
Monday, July 13, 2009
Obama eligibility case will be heard on merits!!
GREAT NEWS ALERT!!
Obama eligibility case will be heard on merits !!
Please distribute everywhere.
Just got off the phone with Orly Taitz, the attorney in Keyes v. Obama.
At the hearing today at the Federal Court building in Santa Ana, Judge Carter said the following:
1. There will be a trial.
2. It will be heard on the merits.
3. Nothing will be dismissed on proceedural issues.
4. The trial will be expeditious, and the judge pledged to give case priority.
5. Being a former Marine he realizes the importance of having a Constitutionally qualified POTUS/CINC.
6. Judge stated that if Obama isn't Constitutionally qualifed he needs to leave the White House.
The DOJ will be involved with the case also.... I wasn't clear if they would be trying to get to the truth or they would just be blindly representing Obama.
Orly will be adding members of the military from California as plaintiffs also.This is from what my interpretation of our conversation.Orly, asked me to disseminate this information out for her, she will be doing a posting later after she gets some sleep.
Please say a prayer of protection for Orly, her family, and Judge Carter. Please also pray that the truth will come to light regarding Obama and justice will be done.
Dr Orly Taitz, Esq site here! (http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/blog1/)
Source (http://vrwcgrapevine.blogspot.com/2009/07/obama-eligibility-case-will-be-heard-on.html)
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IBTL. =D
I can hope for the ugly chunks to get stirred up from the bottom... to be briefly visible...
But the best possible outcome would be Biden as President, and Nancy Pelosi as Veep. Sigh.
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till i followed the link and got a major who filed a tro to avoid going to Afghanistan i had hope
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcoreygilmore.com%2Fuploads%2F2007%2F08%2Fbeating_a_dead_horse.jpg&hash=8b51fabe0e436848b86e864370504845e639437a)
This thread isn't going to go anywhere good.
And, unless there is some revelation about him being a Muslim Terrorist Sleeper Agent, I just don't see the protagonists in this case ever being satisfied.
I'll make you guys a deal. If its run by a major news source as any kind of story, feel free to post and discuss, without hysterics.
For now, it gets the axe.
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At least one MSM outlet has picked it up. I'm going to unlock it, please keep it civil.
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I think it will be legally determined that Obama is Constitutionally allowed to be President. Whether he really is or not, I can't say. But I think that since he has been President for half a year now, it would be a fiasco of monumental proportions to boot him out. The case will be heard, he will be found legal, if only to shut up the tin foil wearers.
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Man, wouldn't a President Biden be a hoot.
Biden is what the MSM portrayed Quayle to be.
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I think that since he has been President for half a year now, it would be a fiasco of monumental proportions to boot him out.
President Obama: fiasco of monumental proportions (fomp)
Deposing President Obama: fomp
President Biden: fomp
We are so humped.
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President Obama: fiasco of monumental proportions (fomp)
Deposing President Obama: fomp
President Biden: fomp
We are so humped.
Yeah, we're not likely to get much policy change even if Obama were found to actually be Barry Soetero or whatever, and traveled on an Indonesian passport. Biden would pick up the exact same policies dictated from the oneworlders, and if not him then Pelosi.
Come to think of it... Biden would have to be complicit if there were a cover up of this magnitude. He'd be stalked by accusations of collusion (or something else appropriate) his entire 1/2 term, and we would be down to Pelosi pretty quick.
Then imagine the GOP response... more authoritarian autocrat pinheads, more incumbent protectionism, more centralization of power.
Citizen or not, it doesn't really matter. Neither party cares so much about the country as its power base. We're humped any way you slice it.
I'm hoping for a non-citizen ruling just to hump over the Democrats, then maybe a similar scale GOP scandal to follow so that both parties eat feces and choke on a tapeworm.
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The black people will tear up Los Angeles, Houston, Atlanta, and Chicago if Obama is deposed.
Its just not worth it.
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President Obama: fiasco of monumental proportions (fomp)
Deposing President Obama: fomp
President Biden: fomp
We are so humped.
Yes, but come one:
Who's more likely to be re-elected in 2012? President Obama or President Biden?
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The black people will tear up Los Angeles, Houston, Atlanta, and Chicago if Obama is deposed.
Its just not worth it.
i'm not so sure about that, remember how white people felt when carter was in =D
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The black people will tear up Los Angeles, Houston, Atlanta, and Chicago if Obama is deposed.
And the downside is? =D
I have a suspicion that this birth certificate thing is nothing but wishful thinking/sour grapes... and everybody involved in pushing it is going to get permanently branded conspiracy nutjobs for doing so.
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The black people dependent, welfare-loving, Dem-voting, Katrina-dispersed, uneducated, "gimmie-gimmie-NOW" crowd will tear up Los Angeles, Houston, Atlanta, and Chicago if Obama is deposed.
Fixed for accuracy.....and to show that not much would change....since they're doing that NOW.... ;/
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The more massive the train wreck, the less likely we'll see the Democratic machine in power for a very long time.
The Lefties play dirty politicals and thrive on smear campaigns, its about time the right starts fighting back.
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Last time I checked, this is OUR country.
Not Kenyas.
If it should turn out to be completely true, then the useless jerk should be impeached and recalled right out of office in shame and shackles.
He would have pulled the wool over the eyes of the American public and they fell right for it, maybe they'd wake up a little and realise that this is their country too.
Let them riot and let them get put into prison for any mayhem they bring on themselves.
I personally can't say I've seen any proof that Obama is guilty, but an innocent man does not spend a million dollars to seal his birth records, when simply giving them up for the sake of transparency would settle the issue once and for all.
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Last time I checked, this is OUR country.
Not Kenyas.
If it should turn out to be completely true, then the useless jerk should be impeached and recalled right out of office in shame and shackles.
He would have pulled the wool over the eyes of the American public and they fell right for it, maybe they'd wake up a little and realise that this is their country too.
Let them riot and let them get put into prison for any mayhem they bring on themselves.
I personally can't say I've seen any proof that Obama is guilty, but an innocent man does not spend a million dollars to seal his birth records, when simply giving them up for the sake of transparency would settle the issue once and for all.
[/b]
Cite? Proof?
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But the best possible outcome would be Biden as President, and Nancy Pelosi as Veep. Sigh.
It's not immediately clear that Biden would become VP - the Congress would probably work its magic and "elect" him in an emergency session, but the VP's job is to replace the President. But if BHO is ruled ineligible, then he never WAS the president after all . . . with all the implications that brings along.
Can a VP replace a POTUS who actually never was POTUS?
As for VP, Nancy Pelosi, as Speaker of the House, is 3rd in line of succession for POTUS, but I'm not aware of any formalized line of succession for VP. (Remember when Agnew left office, Ford was appointed - the office didn't go to the Speaker.) I remember reading that a law was passed formalizing the line of succession for POTUS, but I just don't know if the VP's job was included.
But let's not get our hopes up too much . . . I think the most likely scenario - assuming things aren't ultimately dismissed, regardless of the news stories - is that the genuine, long-form birth certificate will be produced, with the name of the hospitial and attending physician, and there will be something embarassing to BHO on it. (Maybe "Father" is listed as "Unknown?")
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I'm with Hank. Something embarassing (most likely having to do with his father) is on the long form, and he will sadly still be TOTUS. But still, one can dream... =)
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Can a VP replace a POTUS who actually never was POTUS?
If Obama is ruled ineligible to run for POTUS, wouldn't that mean that Biden was never elected veep and therefore couldn't succeed Obama?
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IBTL. =D
I can hope for the ugly chunks to get stirred up from the bottom... to be briefly visible...
But the best possible outcome would be Biden as President, and Nancy Pelosi as Veep. Sigh.
Wrong answer. If Obama were forced out, Biden would be President. He would get to pick a VP replacement, who would have to be confirmed by both houses of Congress. (Article 25 of the US Constitution, ratified 10 Feb 1967.)
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it would be entertaining if he isn't black =D
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But let's not get our hopes up too much . . . I think the most likely scenario - assuming things aren't ultimately dismissed, regardless of the news stories - is that the genuine, long-form birth certificate will be produced, with the name of the hospitial and attending physician, and there will be something embarassing to BHO on it. (Maybe "Father" is listed as "Unknown?")
If something is different between the COLB and the long form certificate... then that means he forged the COLB. His father is listed on the COLB.
Maybe he was born with a prehensile tail, or seven toes on one foot, or something else odd, and that's showing on the long form? =D
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Article II of the Constitution allowed for successors to be selected from members of Congress from amongst its members. It wasn't until the 25th Amendment was ratified that we had a specific order of succession. I wish we would repeal the 25th so we wouldn't be saddled with the likes of Biden, Pelosi and Reid. They all scare me.
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I agree with the notion that he will be declared legal to shut people up. Honestly, I am more interested in his college transcripts so we can see why his grades were not made public.
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I agree with the notion that he will be declared legal to shut people up. Honestly, I am more interested in his college transcripts so we can see why his grades were not made public.
Perhaps becasue they weren't as good as GWB's?
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i think his funding(for collage) might be more embarrassing then his grades :O
edit: or it might be as simple as hillary's thesis (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17388372/) :laugh:
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The more massive the train wreck, the less likely we'll see the Democratic machine in power for a very long time.
Yeah, but they could take us so far down that train track, we can never come back.
If this does go to court and the state of Hawaii doesn't have a proper birth certificate on record, I would not put it past them from finding a 1961 typewriter and fabricating one.
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Yeah, but they could take us so far down that train track, we can never come back.
There's no such thing.
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it would be entertaining if he isn't black =D
There is some evidence that he is more arabic than black.
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Please, someone derail the paranoia train.
Its also showing how some of you will not be satisfied unless he's revealed as a sleeper cell terrorist.
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Please, someone derail the paranoia train.
Its also showing how some of you will not be satisfied unless he's revealed as a sleeper cell terrorist.
It would not surprise me in the least.
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Please, someone derail the paranoia train.
Its also showing how some of you will not be satisfied unless he's revealed as a sleeper cell terrorist.
=D
I hear ya...
Frankly I hope for all of our politicians to be exposed as domestic ecoterrorist sympathizers, islamofascist sympathizers, embezzlers and traitors to the Bill of Rights.
I'm an equal opportunity politician hater. This is just the one in the crosshairs right now.
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=D
I hear ya...
Frankly I hope for all of our politicians to be exposed as domestic ecoterrorist sympathizers, islamofascist sympathizers, embezzlers and traitors to the Bill of Rights.
I'm an equal opportunity politician hater. This is just the one in the crosshairs right now.
Yep. A clean sweep would be nice.
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Please, someone derail the paranoia train.
Its also showing how some of you will not be satisfied unless he's revealed as a sleeper cell terrorist.
I don't think anyone here believes obama is a terrorist, other than the standard political type. I don't anyone doubts how far the dnc will go to win. obama is just a slick politician who's trying to get around a little thing called a birth certificate.
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Interesting dilemma. If (and I say *if*), it is proven that Obama is not a US Citizen. Then his election is null and void, nicht wahr ??
Does Biden become President ??
Could Hillary say "I would have been the Democrat Nominee, therefore I would have won."
Does McCain get it ??
Does Pelosi become President since Obama/Biden couldn't have won ??
Do we have a "redo" election ??
Does the House/Senate decide ??
Do all of Obama's appointee's tossed (after all you can't appoint someone, if you can't be POTUS) ??
Does the Supreme Court utimately decide ?? Because there's nothing in the Constitution about how to handle such a situation.
This could get EXTREMELY interesting......
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Interesting dilemma. If (and I say *if*), it is proven that Obama is not a US Citizen. Then his election is null and void, nicht wahr ??
Does Biden become President ??
Could Hillary say "I would have been the Democrat Nominee, therefore I would have won."
Does McCain get it ??
Does Pelosi become President since Obama/Biden couldn't have won ??
Do we have a "redo" election ??
Does the House/Senate decide ??
Do all of Obama's appointee's tossed (after all you can't appoint someone, if you can't be POTUS) ??
Does the Supreme Court utimately decide ?? Because there's nothing in the Constitution about how to handle such a situation.
This could get EXTREMELY interesting......
Could the matter be referred to the Electoral College?
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Please, someone derail the paranoia train.
Its also showing how some of you will not be satisfied unless he's revealed as a sleeper cell terrorist.
there is a lot of ground between not being satisfied if he isn't(or even suspecting he is), and amused if he is :cool:
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Yeah, I'd be amused.
Deposed President.
Riots in the cities.
Crashing stock market.
Paralyzed government.
Oooohh, exciting stuff.
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Yeah, I'd be amused.
Deposed President.
Riots in the cities.
Crashing stock market.
Paralyzed government.
Oooohh, exciting stuff.
...and, yet, a better alternative to what we're facing now....let the chips fall where they may, I say....
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Yeah, I'd be amused.
Deposed President.
Riots in the cities.
Crashing stock market.
Paralyzed government.
Oooohh, exciting stuff.
Please, someone derail the paranoia train. ;/
What a drama queen. Tinfoil's on too tight, methinks. You eat all your spaghettios from Y2K already? =D
Political scandal doesn't cause all that. His policies are already enacted and you can't suddenly get Professor Peabody's Wayback Machine to undo the money spent on them, or even derail the already signed legislation. There's simply no judicial/executive/legislative instrument invented with which to do that.
It would be just like the Nixon Whitewater Scandal... nothing more.
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The lawsuits would make the hanging chad debacle look like child's play.
Let me ask those of you who seem to be hopeful.
If some form of documentation is presented to the court that satisfies it, and Obama wins in this case, will you be satisfied?
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The lawsuits would make the hanging chad debacle look like child's play.
Let me ask those of you who seem to be hopeful.
If some form of documentation is presented to the court that satisfies it, and Obama wins in this case, will you be satisfied?
I'd want the Indonesian passport issue thoroughly tracked down by the State Department also. By a bipartisan investigation group.
I have a distinct dislike for "one worlders." If he's floating around on non-US passports that means he has dual citizenship, which the US doesn't recognize.
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Of course not, I already covered that with the 1961 casio typewriter found in the Waikiki public Library basement. All the need is a copy of Don Ho's BC, a little whiteout, and they're good to go. =D =D =D =D
and one more for you Jamis: =D
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The US doesn't recognize duel citizenship? That seems... dumb.
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The US doesn't recognize duel citizenship? That seems... dumb.
Hell, I think they ought to recognize it...and outlaw it.
Those who gain citizenship in another country ought to be stripped of their American citizenship.
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I had read today that the Major that has filed a lawsuit against Obama has withdrawn his suit. He is also NOT getting ordered to Afghanistan. Hmmmm. A WND article also stated that the Major was getting fired. That doesn't surprise me. I still have to wonder WHY he's spending so much $$ to keep his birth Cert a secret? So much for a "transparent administration"....
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The U.S. recognizes dual citizenship but the Constitution specifically states a President should be a "natural born citizen." That leaves some room for interpretation but it is generally understood to mean allegiance to one and only one nation. Dual citizenship should disqualify someone from the Presidency since that could raise the possibility of divided allegiance. Holders of other offices can be naturalized (rather than natural born) citizens. At one time there was talk of running Ahnuld Schwarzenegger for Prez but they couldn't figure a way around that policy .I mean, how would you like it if your Prez was a citizen of Kenya as well as the US? Ohhh....whoops, that may already have happened. The strict interpretation of natural born citizen is that one is born on US soil (or under US jurisdiction...see John McCain) to two US citizens. If that interpretation is correct, then Obama wouldn't qualify anyway since his old man was a Kenyan citizen. The only exceptions were the early Presidents who were English subjects before the Revolution.
Even if BHO is found to be unqualified, what do you want to bet there will be a "public outcry" to change the policy retroactively? It will be hard as heck to unseat him.
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if the policy is changed i say we run Arnold in 2012 :laugh: would be better than the frankin race :O =D
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Those who gain citizenship in another country ought to be stripped of their American citizenship.
With some exceptions, I agree. The gaining of citizenship in another country must require an act of volition on the part of the person for it to affect his or her US citizenship. I say this for two reasons:
1) If I recall correctly, some countries (I think Germany is one) automagically grant citizenship to anyone who is born in their borders, even if "within their borders" means "on a foreign military base within their borders". So a kid born to military parents stationed on a base in one of those countries would have dual citizenship through no act of volition. Perhaps people wishing to run for president could be required to renounce such dual citizenship, just to be safe.
2) We cannot control another country's laws with regard to who is and is not a citizen of that country. Suppose a country decides that Candidate A in the US presidential election is much better for their interests than Candidate B. >poof< New law saying that the country can declare anyone they want a citizen. They issue Candidate B a passport without his knowledge or consent, and, oops, suddenly Candidate B is a stripped of US citizenship, ineligible for election for President.
Anyone who seeks citizenship from another country, or who makes use of the benefits of citizenship in that country (for instance, traveling under a passport from that country), yes.
-BP
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I'm pretty sure my friend has a dual Canadian/US citizenship. He was born in Canada and now lives here.
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I think the only hang up that may occur is related to the time when the young Barack Obama was going to school in Indonesia.
I still don't understand why the Obama team put so much energy and money into shrouding his birth certificate, school records, etc.
Other than that, he will be found to be American born and I bet his father's name will be blank or worse it will say bastard or something like that. :)
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Quite a few US politicians hold duel Israeli and US Citizenship.
Should any elected officials be allowed to hold duel citizenship?
Or should just the President not be allowed duel citizenship?
(Not claiming that Obama is a duel citizen with Kenya or wherever)
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Even if BHO is found to be unqualified, what do you want to bet there will be a "public outcry" to change the policy retroactively?
Doesn't the Constitution prohibit ex-post-facto laws, other than those involving taxes?
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Doesn't the Constitution prohibit ex-post-facto laws, other than those involving taxes?
The Constitution prohibits many things.
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The Constitution prohibits many things.
What is this "Constitution" of which you speak ??
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Obama is too big to fail.
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Obama is too big to fail.
ewwww! :lol:
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Obama is too big to fail.
So was General Motors, AIG, Citibank and others. We'll see about failure.
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No, it's OK. We bailed out GM, so there's no chance they'll go bankrupt now.
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No one is too big to fail, but when someone of this kind of power fails he usually takes his nation with him for a good while.
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The birth certificate is merely the endpoint of a number of documents which have been scrubbed from the public record. It seems Obama's paper trail is simply unavailable. I don't need tinfoil to want to know why.
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As an outside observer it seems to me there have been several cases in US history where, though there has not been a real conspiracy, the ineptness of the US government/politicians/other figures in handling the events had served to affirm rumors of a conspiracy where there haven't been such rumors before. IF that makes any sense.
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As an outside observer it seems to me there have been several cases in US history where, though there has not been a real conspiracy, the ineptness of the US government/politicians/other figures in handling the events had served to affirm rumors of a conspiracy where there haven't been such rumors before. IF that makes any sense.
There's a quote attributed to a couple of different authors that goes something like
"In fact, one thing that I have noticed...is that all of these conspiracy theories depend on the perpetrators being endlessly clever. I think you'll find the facts also work if you assume everyone is endlessly stupid."
That's usually my take on things.
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What is needed is about 1000 + military people to file a class action suit under the same grounds so they protect themselve from being treated as illegal combatents.
Retired general, lieutenant colonel join reservist’s lawsuit over Obama's birth status
General, lieutenant colonel join suit similar to 2 already thrown out
Thursday, Jul. 16, 2009
http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/news/story/778482.html
By Lily Gordon - lgordon@ledger-enquirer.com
A controversial suit brought by a U.S. Army reservist has been joined by a retired Army two-star general and an active reserve Air Force lieutenant colonel.
Maj. Stefan Frederick Cook filed the suit July 8 in federal court here asking for conscientious objector status and a preliminary injunction based upon his belief that President Barack Obama is not a natural-born citizen of the United States and is therefore ineligible to serve as president of the United States and commander-in-chief of the U.S. Armed Forces.
However, before the issue got to court, Cook’s orders to deploy to Afghanistan were revoked. Lt. Col. Maria Quon, a public affairs officer with the U.S. Army Human Resources Command-St. Louis, said Tuesday that Cook was no longer expected to report Wednesday to MacDill Air Force Base in Florida for mobilization to active duty. Cook, who claims he is now the victim of retaliation due to his suit, received his mobilization orders to report for active duty at MacDill on Wednesday. From there, he was to go to Fort Benning on Saturday for deployment to Afghanistan.
Cook is an Individual Mobilization Augmentee. This means he’s a reserve soldier assigned to an active component unit consisting of active duty soldiers instead of a reserve unit, which is composed entirely of reserve soldiers. He is assigned to the U.S. Army Element of U.S. Southern Command.
Last week, Cook filed a request in federal court seeking a temporary restraining order and status as a conscientious objector represented by California attorney Orly Taitz.
The government, in its response to the suit, claims that Cook’s suit is “moot” in that he already has been told he doesn’t have to go to Afghanistan, so the relief he is seeking has been granted.
“The Commanding General of SOCCENT (U.S. Special Operations Central Command) has determined that he does not want the services of Major Cook, and has revoked his deployment orders,” the response states.
In a pleading revised after the revocation of Cook’s orders, Taitz argues that the application for preliminary injunction is not moot and that retired Maj. Gen. Carol Dean Childers and active U.S. Air Force reservist Lt. Col. David Earl Graeff have joined the suit “because it is a matter of unparalleled public interest and importance and because it is clearly a matter arising from issues of a recurring nature that will escape review unless the Court exercises its discretionary jurisdiction.”
Cook’s resubmitted Application for Preliminary Injunction is meant to encompass the possibility of Cook receiving future orders for deployment as well as to address and prevent “negative collateral consequences such as retaliation against Major Stefan Frederick Cook ...”
As to the retaliation issue, the revised suit states Cook lost his job at Simtech Inc., a corporation that does Department of Defense contracting in the field of information technology/systems integration, because of the suit. It also states that Cook has been subjected to “gossip” from people who believed Cook was “manipulating his deployment orders to create a platform for political purposes.”
Taitz, who has challenged the legitimacy of Obama’s presidency in other courts, filed the original suit with the U.S. District Court for the Middle District of Georgia. Two similar suits have previously been thrown out of federal court.
In the filing, Cook states he “would be acting in violation of international law by engaging in military actions outside the United States under this President’s command. … simultaneously subjecting himself to possible prosecution as a war criminal by the faithful execution of these duties.”
A hearing to discuss Cook’s requests is scheduled to take place in federal court here this morning at 9:30 a.m.
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I will admit there are some curiousities to the behavior of the administration, i.e., the post above trying to remove standing from this gentleman.
On the other hand, I have found that this conspiracy theory website contradicts itself in confusing manners. It has been a week since I read the story about the "counterfeit" selective service registration. However, at the time, they claimed that there was a form, left over from 2000 or so, (factory) stamped with a number for year 2008 ("08...") which was appended to ("808...) to prove his registration was done in 2008, not 1980. Interesting, the Obama team found some 2000 form, 8 years post-dated, to submit as a fake. That or they intentionally put an 08 date on a 2000 form, which makes even less sense.
What I find more likely about this document, and the so called "fake" birth certificate, is a likelyhood that the government document standards are not up to par. Different offices using different templates, ect. Way more likely than a presidential candidate having his documents forged by a 10 year with MS paint.
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FTA, my favorite part is that the same government(s) at the local, state, and federal government that are deemed to be incompetent could suddenly pull off a conspiracy to make him president....
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Should any elected officials be allowed to hold duel citizenship?
Or should just the President not be allowed duel citizenship?
Arguably, there's a conflict of interest whenever anyone holds dual citizenship. Countries are sovereign. They can declare war whenever they want, on whoever they want, no matter how unlikely it might be.
Countries may make demands on their citizens, the most obvious being a draft. Two countries drafting the same person would be a problem, even if those countries are not at war with each other.
The idea that one person may vote, serve on juries, and enjoy other privileges of citizenship in two different countries seems a bit contrary to the principle of fair/equal representation if you ask me.
A person should be a citizen of one country. Another country (country X) can, if it wants, accept certain foreign citizens as permanent residents with few questions asked. They could also, quite reasonably, allow citizens of country Y to renounce that citizenship and become citizens of country X, with few questions asked. But granting citizenship without requiring renunciation of all other citizenship is not a very wise or reasonable thing to do IMO, and anyone holding multiple citizenship should (IMO) have his/her motives questioned.
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The birth certificate is merely the endpoint of a number of documents which have been scrubbed from the public record. It seems Obama's paper trail is simply unavailable. I don't need tinfoil to want to know why.
Let's be fair: the documents are there, you just don't accept them. Why would having a scan on the internet of the original handwritten piece of paper be any more satisfying to the Obama citizenship doubters than the certificate issued by the state which already affirms its existence?
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Let's be fair: the documents are there, you just don't accept them.
I'm a better judge of what's in my mind than you could ever be.
That said, my inclination is to accept his birth claims as fact. I'm inclined to believe its all about nothing. I'm inclined to accept Hawaii's paperwork as a clear cut statement of his American citizenship.
I do perk up when I hear that a lot of ancillary documentation just happens to be unavailable for view. My curiosity is further piqued when I learn the unavailability of documentation just happens to be related to things like passports and student aide and scholarship applications, all of which are directly related to the question of citizenship.
I can accept one point being an anomaly. I get real interested when I see a series of anomalies all based around a common question.
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Let's be fair: the documents are there, you just don't accept them. Why would having a scan on the internet of the original handwritten piece of paper be any more satisfying to the Obama citizenship doubters than the certificate issued by the state which already affirms its existence?
If we're being fair, we need to recognize that all we really have is their word that the documents are there and that they're legit. All we've really seen is a scan on the internet, which many folks believe to be dubious. Some folks would like more convincing evidence, including the full chain of documents that seem to have been disappeared.
I don't think it's unreasonable for the citizenry to ask their President to fully resolve any questions about the legality of his citizenship. It would be a very trivial matter to resolve, too, assuming the documents really are all there and fully legit. The documents should be unsealed and released publicly for all to see.
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Waitone,
So what document is it that you think is unavailable? Clearly not his birth certificate; that's scanned online and was already used to secure a passport for Obama.
What document is it that you think is missing that's related to student aid, scholarships, and passports??
Headless,
That's my point. If you don't think a scan on the internet is good, how are you going to be convinced by a scan of the original, 1961 piece of paper? Does it have to be circulated in original via chain mail to every "birther"?
And what are these documents that disappeared?
There's a birth certificate, good enough for a passport or any government function, available to the public. There are birth notices in newspapers from the time period to support the authenticity of that certificate. What possible information could come out that would add anything to that?
And if you doubt it already, what about the new information (which will be scanned/reported/somehow through an intermediary, just like the already released birth certificate) would convince you and why?
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i was born in 59 in the exact same place why is his so different than mine? besides the fact that mine was a territorial certificate why is there so much less info on his? and why does it not resemble my more recent copies that they sent me?
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i was born in 59 in the exact same place why is his so different than mine? besides the fact that mine was a territorial certificate why is there so much less info on his? and why does it not resemble my more recent copies that they sent me?
[tinfoil_beanie]Well, they had to get Dan Rather to format them in MS Word 2003 and he foolishly used the default formatting. You'd think he'd learn by now...[/tinfoil_beanie]
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What I'm having trouble accepting is the fact that there is apparently no one in our Federal government bureaucracy who is either able or willing to prove that he was properly vetted for the Presidency. Who is in charge of determining eligibility? Can anyone claim they are a citizen and run for election or do you have to prove it to somebody? If anyone vetted him (or any candidate) they should be able to cough up the documentation with no problem. This is basic, "this-is-a-football" sort of thing. That it has come to this state says a great deal about the corruption and inefficiency in our system. This shouldn't even be an issue. If he was not eligible his application should have been rejected. If he is eligible then the documentation should be available through the Freedom of Information Act.
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Does proving eligibility to a majority of voters count?
Or do you want those "activist judges" pre-vetting all candidates too?
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There's a birth certificate, good enough for a passport or any government function, available to the public.
Birth certificates of the time contained a lot of handwritten information and included signatures of various people . . . the "Certification of Live Birth" available on-line is a different document which is missing key information.
Note that ALL questioning could be stopped dead in its tracks - and serve to discredit critics - if BHO made a public statement authorizing the hospital he was born at to release his actual long-form birth certificate.
But he hasn't done that.
Is he just playing a game, hoping his critics will dig themselves a deeper hole by becoming more vociferous? Or does he actually have something to hide?
I don't know . . . but something looks shady to me.
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Does proving eligibility to a majority of voters count?
Or do you want those "activist judges" pre-vetting all candidates too?
In response to the first part:
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all the people all of the time."
How did he prove eligibility to the majority? Just because they voted for him doesn't fulfill the requirement. My point is he shouldn't personally have to prove his eligibility to each and every person who asks for it. He should prove it indisputably once, then undergo an unparalleled background check by the Secret Service or FBI. The job description and requirements are unique....Prez and VP positions are the only ones in govt with the "natural born citizen" stipulation.
When I got a passport I had to have my original birth certificate or a state certified copy....no facsimiles permitted. When I buy firearms I must fill out a form 4473; one of the questions is about my citizenship. If the background check is hinkey then I can't legally purchase a gun. If I lie about my citizenship on the form and don't get caught, then purchase a gun it doesn't make me a US citizen. It just means the ATF and FBI are either easy to fool or didn't bother checking enough.
I don't want activist judges involved in anything, much less vetting. Who said a judge has to determine eligibility, though? The FBI should have the checklist from He** to complete, then have the results certified by a court. If the FBI does the job properly then ideological activism has no role....there is no gray area, you either is or you ain't qualified.
This is a man with his finger on every trigger and red button we, as a country, possess. There are no insignificant areas of investigation.
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Does proving eligibility to a majority of voters count?
Or do you want those "activist judges" pre-vetting all candidates too?
If a majority of voters voted that 2+2=5, would that make it so?
It should be clear that no amount of vote-getting can influence a man's ability to satisfy the various statutory requirements for holding office.
And in a case like this, where it would be entirely trivial to prove that statutory requirements are met, there is no reason at all not to do it. Obama could end this debate with a single phone call or a stroke of his pen, and get on with more important task like destroying our health care system.
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a different document which is missing key information.
What information is missing that is relevant to his presidential eligibility (or lack of)?
Is he just playing a game, hoping his critics will dig themselves a deeper hole by becoming more vociferous? Or does he actually have something to hide?
He has nothing to gain from giving in to the demands of conspiracy theorists. No amount of evidence will convince them and fulfilling their every request only serves to legitimize them. The people who honestly believe he's an alien\Muslim\terrorist\foreigner\Illuminati are going to indefinitely demand further proof and claim anything that contradicts their belief is a forgery and part of the conspiracy.
That being said.... I heard he's actually a genetically engineered hybrid of Malcom X and Lenin and since he hasn't done anything to disprove this I have to wonder what he's hiding! :O
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Never mind
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What information is missing that is relevant to his presidential eligibility (or lack of)?
If I write "I'm allowed to buy guns" on a piece of paper, do you think an FFL will accept it in lieu of a 4473?
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If I write "I'm allowed to buy guns" on a piece of paper, do you think an FFL will accept it in lieu of a 4473?
Obviously not. How would the FFL know that you didn't photoshop it? Duh... :rolleyes:
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For those that think this case has merit, what do you think is on the long form birth cert. that would contradict the "Born in Oahu, Hawaii" on the COLB? Or do you think the COLB Obama's campaign released is a forgery?
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A President who hides his history--save for authorized autobiographies he himself has penned--is going to invite scrutiny and skepticism. Either Obama loves being an enigma or he has plenty to conceal. I suspect both.
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The President already released a valid, state issued certificate proving that his original birth record exists.
How would releasing the handwritten original do more? It would just be a scan online too. So how is that going to satisfy the conspiracy nuts?
The need to create a "controversy" over this just gets more ridiculous each time something is released.
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obama released a document stating he was present at the hospital alive(a certificate of live birth), it has nothing to do with being born at the hospital. His own grandmother said he was born in a hospital(in kenya no less). :angel:
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obama released a document stating he was present at the hospital alive(a certificate of live birth), it has nothing to do with being born at the hospital. His own grandmother said he was born in a hospital(in kenya no less). :angel:
"Place of Birth" has nothing to do with where he was born?
His grandmother said he was born in America. The newspapers had a notice from the 60's. How do we explain that away?
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"Place of Birth" has nothing to do with where he was born?
His grandmother said he was born in America. The newspapers had a notice from the 60's. How do we explain that away?
Easily. The newspaper is a forgery. :lol:
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I think the logical explanation is that the birth certificate would destroy some part of the Obama myth...i.e. his white mother saw fit, in a world of Jim Crow laws, to put her son's race as "Caucasion" on the birth cert.
That would go over with blacks like a ham sandwich in synagogue
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obama released a document stating he was present at the hospital alive(a certificate of live birth), it has nothing to do with being born at the hospital.
The COLB has "location of birth" "hour of birth" "City, town or location of birth" "island of birth" and "county of birth."
http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_3.jpg
Better copy:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategorized/2008/06/13/bobirthcertificate.jpg
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"He has nothing to gain from giving in to the demands of conspiracy theorists."
Perhaps, but as we are seeing, he has plenty to lose. The longer this issue goes unresolved we'll see more fence-sitters become converts. His overall approval rating is in the toilet already and this birth certificate controversy is siphoning voters out of his ranks faster than he can replace them. Even if he manages to enfranchise 12 million illegals with the vote, 1) he can't guarantee they will all vote for him and 2) he can easily drive away that many in the next three years. If he has nothing to hide he'd better prove it pretty soon.
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He's hiding a lot more than his birth. School records, law case records?
Obama's "legitimacy" is what is really in question, and the more he appears to be an alien as regards everything this nation holds dearest the more questions there will be.
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He's hiding a lot more than his birth. School records, law case records?
Obama's "legitimacy" is what is really in question, and the more he appears to be an alien as regards everything this nation holds dearest the more questions there will be.
Those other items were the ones I was more interested in seeing. I agree with the comment above. There is something in those documents that would be embarrassing to Obama or something that he would have a hard time trying to explain.
My problem is that if all this had come out 2 years ago when he started to run for office, would anyone care about it now? We just don't know I guess. Clinton got elected after his affair with the Flowers girl came out earlier in the year. I think it is a case of a short term political decision that has been dragging behind him ever since.
Would past Presidents have been able to do the same thing? Would the media have hounded them mercilessly like they did for Bush on the whole National Guard issue?
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Virtually every American can probably produce a certified copy of his or her birth certificate in a few moments as it is needed at various times in life to produce it. What's the big deal with Barry Sotero being unable or unwilling to do so? To me, the fact that he won't speaks volumes as to his character and legitimacy.
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He's hiding a lot more than his birth. School records, law case records?
That's the thing; what he's done is to get an executive level job when his "previous employment" records are equivalent to a note saying "Him gud werkur." in orange crayon on a Chuck E Cheese napkin signed "Pursun in charj at big cumpuny."
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Wouldn't it be a simple matter to get someone obama's age that was born in HI to show their birth certificate to see if the form matches what the president has produced?
My hospital birth certificate is a fancy certificate that has my foot prints on it and signed by the doctors. My certified birth certificate is a typed form with signatures and the county seal imprinted on it. This is in Texas though....chris3
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This is all tilting at windmills anyway. There's no way at all that Obama is going to be removed from office over this.
The people who supported him are the sort who believe that it's OK to lie, as long as the lie you're telling advances their political agenda, or conveys how things "should" have happened.
These are the same sort of people who, when PETA couldn't find any cooperative baby-seal-clubbers, for to film the horror of the thing, clubbed some baby seals to death themselves, so PETA would have something to film.
Truth doesn't matter to these people. Fact doesn't matter to them, either. The vision matters; the agenda matters, and when reality gets in the way of it, reality is ignored.
Obama could come out and say, under oath, "I was born in Pakistan, and my parents, in a bizarre love triangle, were Osama bin Laden, Fidel Castro, and a small furry creature from Alpha Centauri", and the people backing him would still dismiss any claims against his legitimacy as "racism" or "right-wing extremism", and continue to back him, because he's their current Messiah.
Even if he's proven to be ineligible for the presidency, I don't see him being removed from office before serving a full term. People might not vote him in again, but no one in the political power structure has the big brass balls, and the clout, and the desire, combined, to pull him out of office.
-BP
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^ ^ ^
That is the dumbest post in this entire thread.
Liberals don't care about truth, and we believe Obama is the second coming of Jesus no matter what he does! :angel:
Well I guess Republicans are all racist, evil, and likes to kick puppies. :O
And PETA people are insane, can we just leave them in their own special group called Crazy? =D
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Liberals don't care about truth, and we believe Obama is the second coming of Jesus no matter what he does! :angel:
I didn't say Liberals. I very specifically referred only to the "people backing Obama".
Argue what I said, if you like. But don't argue what you invented as a subtext in what I said.
-BP
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There's no way at all that Obama is going to be removed from office over this.
That at least I definitely agree with.
I just would like to see him come clean with all his college records and other such things. I don't really care about the birth certificate. I am more interested in his college transcript, application, and other things like that.
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I didn't say Liberals. I very specifically referred only to the "people backing Obama".
Argue what I said, if you like. But don't argue what you invented as a subtext in what I said.
-BP
best get used to it, its all i'm seeing on 4 or 5 forums right now, the chitown method is oozing right over the US =|
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Being removed from office isn't the issue; become irrelevant--losing his audience--is the issue. Obama is on his way to alienating a big chunk of the American people. If Obama stays his course he and his cronies in D.C. will end up being opposed and then ignored.
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Wouldn't it be a simple matter to get someone obama's age that was born in HI to show their birth certificate to see if the form matches what the president has produced?
My hospital birth certificate is a fancy certificate that has my foot prints on it and signed by the doctors. My certified birth certificate is a typed form with signatures and the county seal imprinted on it. This is in Texas though....chris3
i'm 2 years older born in the same hospital my certificate does not resemble his
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You need a better laser printer. =D
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i'm 2 years older born in the same hospital my certificate does not resemble his
The same hospital in Hawaii or the same hospital in Kenya? :police:
(or the same "hospital" in area 51 where they staged the moon landings? :lol:)
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i'm 2 years older born in the same hospital my certificate does not resemble his
It's not a Birth Certificate that he showed... it's a Certificate of Live Birth. Different documents.
Birth Certs will be specific to the year born and revision of the document. C&SD's cert will potentially be different because there is 2 years difference between the use of the document.
COLB's will be specific to the year requested and printed... not the year of birth. Obama's presented COLB arguably has artifacts from 2 different year revisions of COLB's, and evidence in the exif-information that it was edited in Photoshop. Painted 240x240 pixel backgrounds, sections of the border entirely shifted around and non-standard fonts on the COLB provided. Also, evidence of re-layering of the security border on top of the state seal and text of the document due to jpeg compression ratio differences.
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2008/07/atlas-exclusive.html
If I were born in a Hawaiian hospital in 1978 and requested a COLB on the same day as Obama being born in (whatever year), we should both have identical COLBs aside from the personal information.
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never been to kenya. mine is a territorial certificate there were only 49 states back then, it has the doctors name and some more details
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A-Ha!
It's a PhotoChop!
(Haven't seen that term pop up here at APS in a long time...)
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It won't matter even if he does produce a hard copy.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgs.xkcd.com%2Fcomics%2Fphotoshops.png&hash=bfb77c4952839c1d498743aa4acbaff43cffbf8d)
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I'm not putting a lot of stock in the birth certificate conspiracy theory, but I can understand why some do. After all, it was Barack Obama that taught us all the importance of hope.
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I'm not putting a lot of stock in the birth certificate conspiracy theory, but I can understand why some do. After all, it was Barack Obama that taught us all the importance of hope.
Fisty for the win!
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If something is different between the COLB and the long form certificate... then that means he forged the COLB. His father is listed on the COLB.
Maybe he was born with a prehensile tail, or seven toes on one foot, or something else odd, and that's showing on the long form? =D
that's my thinking too, he has a tail or is hermaphrodite :lol:
Actually I would bet 20 dollars the real problem is his original long form list his religion as "Muslim" like mine listed me as Catholic.
Mr Obama, release your long form and solve the mystery.
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Maybe he doesn't have the original, long form.
I don't have mine. I was born during WW2. The delivering doctor was an Army doc at the base where my father was stationed. Yes, I had a honest-to-goodness birth certificate, and for the first forty or so of my sixty-plus years I knew where it was. Between the deaths of my parents and a divorce from my second wife, my birth certificate (and a lot of other personal papers) flat disappeared. Once it's gone, it cannot be replaced. There is only one "original."
Please understand: I am not defending Obama, and I DO happen to believe that his COLB is a fake. But I think that demending he produce "the" original birth certificate is an unreasonable demend.
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Maybe he doesn't have the original, long form.
I don't have mine. I was born during WW2. The delivering doctor was an Army doc at the base where my father was stationed. Yes, I had a honest-to-goodness birth certificate, and for the first forty or so of my sixty-plus years I knew where it was. Between the deaths of my parents and a divorce from my second wife, my birth certificate (and a lot of other personal papers) flat disappeared. Once it's gone, it cannot be replaced. There is only one "original."
Please understand: I am not defending Obama, and I DO happen to believe that his COLB is a fake. But I think that demending he produce "the" original birth certificate is an unreasonable demend.
that is possible less likely though in that i was born same hospital a couple years earlier and got a copy of my original with all the extra data
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Mr Obama, release your long form and solve the mystery.
[BHO]You want to see my long form? Well, <zzzzzzzzzzzzzip!>, here it is![/BHO]
Yeah, I suspect some embarrassing truth to be present. Same thing with his college records, like Hilary's senior thesis / tongue bath of Alinsky.
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Just heard on the news, the State health director from HI says she has seen the birth certificate and is vouching for it.
The conspiracy deepens....
:laugh:
More and more, I'm suspicious, too. But not of the same things.
I don't buy that he isn't a citizen.
There is something on there he doesn't want us to see. Religion listed as Muslim or something along those lines.
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I'm betting on religion listed as Muslim, race listed as white, or some other little thing. Whatever it is, I want to see a copy of the long form.
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born with 24 digits, gotta be it :O :laugh: =D
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Just heard on the news, the State health director from HI says she has seen the birth certificate and is vouching for it.
OF COURSE I'll trust "evidence" someone else has seen but will NOT let ME see. Sure I will. :rolleyes:
Just like I believed everything in those old car commercials with Joe Isuzu.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ic0UejzZDZ8
Maybe we should take up a pool about what "embarassing" notation is on the form . . .
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The only way for two people to keep a secret is if one of them is dead.
If it were anything beyond just embarrasing, it would have leaked by now.
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and how long did it take to bring down Capone?
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and how long did it take to bring down Capone?
;/
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and how long did it take to bring down Capone?
But income tax evasion - the only thing Capone was convicted of - is no longer a crime! Just ask, oh, practically any Obama appointee. :police:
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The only way for two people to keep a secret is if one of them is dead.
If it were anything beyond just embarrasing, it would have leaked by now.
Hardly. It all depends on who knows, and what their motives are.
It's easy to imagine a scenario where the only people who know the birth certificate is a fake are hardcore Obama supporters willing to bury or destroy the truth.
I'm not saying that's what happened, just saying that it's plausible. Knowing something damning about the Bamster is not the same as wanting to share something damning with the world.
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The birth certificate controversy is just a symptom.
The real disease is that Obama, many sense, is a stranger in a strange land. That perception is going to grow.
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At first, I figured this whole issue was malarkey. As time went on, and Obama continued to stonewall on showing a copy of an actual birth certificate, and insisting we rely on a doctor's word that it exists, I began to give some thought to the whole thing. I now believe one of two things:Either there's some small but embarrassing tidbit listed, such as race=Caucasian or a prehensile tail/12 fingers/no father etc, OR the whole thing has been encouraged by the stonewalling merely to divert energy from real issues.
Frankly, the thing has gone on long enough, and I have seen such obvious Chicago style behavior from this administration, the only way I would consider it put to rest is if an official copy is released to either John Stossel or Gillette Penn for review, with full cooperation by the Hawaii authorities.
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The birth certificate controversy is just a symptom.
The real disease is that Obama, many sense, is a stranger in a strange land. That perception is going to grow.
That strange land elected him with over 66 million votes.
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True, and we live in a strange land, as I said.
You've correctly identified the current state of suffrage as a major problem for contemporary America.
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True, and we live in a strange land, as I said.
You've correctly identified the current state of suffrage as a major problem for contemporary America.
So what do you suggest? Deny suffrage to.... who? People who disagree with you?
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So what do you suggest? Deny suffrage to.... who? People who disagree with you?
Deny suffrage to those who don't pay taxes.
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So what do you suggest? Deny suffrage to.... who? People who disagree with you?
Balog, your ability to concoct straw men is truly impressive.
AZRedhawk44 has suggested one possible direction. That needs exploring.
I think basic communication and literacy criteria ought to be in place. Ideally, citizens should have some knowledge of basic issues. And I am certainly not in favor of ballots in languages other than English.
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Balog, your ability to concoct straw men is truly impressive.
AZRedhawk44 has suggested one possible direction. That needs exploring.
I think basic communication and literacy criteria ought to be in place. Ideally, citizens should have some knowledge of basic issues. And I am certainly not in favor of ballots in languages other than English.
That would be seen as akin to a poll tax or some of the Jim Crow laws that existed testing for literacy and such. Not gonna fly.
A Constitutional Amendment that cited the Declaration of Independence as its justification, referring to taxation without representation and drawing a reverse corollary so as to imply no representation without taxation, might fly.
What you'd probably see as a result though is a "minimum tax" introduced by Democrats into the Income Tax system for a person to pay a paltry $5 in taxes and still be able to vote.
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Deny suffrage to those who don't pay taxes.
Okay. So anyone who buys a pack of gum can vote.
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Balog, your ability to concoct straw men is truly impressive.
AZRedhawk44 has suggested one possible direction. That needs exploring.
I think basic communication and literacy criteria ought to be in place. Ideally, citizens should have some knowledge of basic issues. And I am certainly not in favor of ballots in languages other than English.
Isn't that the way it used to be? Literacy tests, and all that...weren't they used to deny poor people and blacks the vote?
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Okay. So anyone who buys a pack of gum can vote.
That would be sales tax and allow you to vote for state (or maybe city) issues.
Not federal.
Tie federal voting to federal income tax. Make it actually do something in our favor for once. No tax return with an amount paid value > 0 in the correct form 1040 box? No federal vote for you this year. No House of Reps, no Senate, no President.
Also tie it to eligibility for federal office.
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Isn't that the way it used to be? Literacy tests, and all that...weren't they used to deny poor people and blacks the vote?
Hmmm, you're right, best to have no standards at all lest we "discriminate," huh? I think you've defined modern liberalism perfectly: society without civilization.
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Here's the problem: Because you eliminate "literacy tests" and other presumably noxious forms of paternalism doesn't mean you end up with free minds making free choices. What you end up with is just the opposite: people voting in blocs, whether political, economic, or cultural.
Frankly, I think we've "democratized" the suffrage process to the extent only an ACORN could love.
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I think the birth certificate states he is Caucasian while his school records are going to indicate he is black. Then the speculation will start that he was only accepted because he was black, and used it because he knew it would help.
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With all due respect Barack Obama can pass for many things but I don't think Caucasian is one of them. Was he raised "white?" Now that's a different story altogether.
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Here's the problem: Because you eliminate "literacy tests" and other presumably noxious forms of paternalism doesn't mean you end up with free minds making free choices. What you end up with is just the opposite: people voting in blocs, whether political, economic, or cultural.
Because educated people are such freedom-lovers.
College campi are full of educated people in suits with high incomes. Guess who comes up with the ideologies that enslave you? Who mans the courts and the media and the public schools and the government bureaucracies? It's all educated, respectable, middle-class and upper-class people in suits.
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With all due respect Barack Obama can pass for many things but I don't think Caucasian is one of them. Was he raised "white?" Now that's a different story altogether.
I'd say he was raised red.
Because educated people are such freedom-lovers.
College campi are full of educated people in suits with high incomes. Guess who comes up with the ideologies that enslave you? Who mans the courts and the media and the public schools and the government bureaucracies? It's all educated, respectable, middle-class and upper-class people in suits.
The Founders had no problem requiring property ownership as a condition of suffrage. I'd also point to the Starship Troopers model, but I don't really think either is realistic these days.
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I'd also point to the Starship Troopers model, but I don't really think either is realistic these days.
A model that even Heinlein did not genuinely favor.
The Founders had no problem requiring property ownership as a condition of suffrage.
Actually, the Founders were divided on this issue.
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A model that even Heinlein did not genuinely favor.
Actually, the Founders were divided on this issue.
Any limitation on suffrage is fantasy and intellectual masturbation until longeyes leads his fellow %3's in Civil War part deaux.
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Because educated people are such freedom-lovers.
College campi are full of educated people in suits with high incomes. Guess who comes up with the ideologies that enslave you? Who mans the courts and the media and the public schools and the government bureaucracies? It's all educated, respectable, middle-class and upper-class people in suits.
Whoa now. You're describing the Founding Fathers. Let's not romanticize the educated OR the uneducated. That isn't the real issue here.
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Any limitation on suffrage is fantasy and intellectual masturbation until longeyes leads his fellow %3's in Civil War part deaux.
You're quite right. We will continue to expand suffrage until it becomes, like most other formerly serviceable American institutions, a risible travesty. Indeed, Dems have already floated the idea of lowering the voting age to the mid-teens and I believe no lesser a luminary than Ruth Bader Ginsburg could see no problem with something trans-pubertal.
But here's the deal, Balog and fellow Balogians: it's not about me leading anyone into a Civil War; the Civil War has already taken place and we lost. It was a "soft war" but a war nonetheless. What's left is for the survivors on our side to recognize the situation and to gather together and protect those of us who are left, maybe to start again, here or somewhere else.
We will see which of us is practicing fantasy and intellectual masturbation in due course. I guess you think that by enabling the Left to make a mockery of voting you are advancing the cause of Liberty? Well, think again. The last election showed what happens when you get forty years of unremitting public foolishness from both political parties.
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When you say "Make a mockery of voting" what is it that you mean? Cause it sure seems like you mean "Voting for people I don't like." I oppose that for the same reason I opposed silliness like the Patriot Act. Even if I trusted one group to restrain itself (I don't) law must be viewed in the light of "How can my enemies use this against me?"
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No, it doesn't mean "voting for people I don't like."
What it means is voting and not really having any facts or reasoning behind the vote. Mobs are everyone's enemy.
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No, it doesn't mean "voting for people I don't like."
What it means is voting and not really having any facts or reasoning behind the vote. Mobs are everyone's enemy.
And how are you going to determine if someone's reason for their vote is "good enough." ? Seems hard to do with a secret ballot. Also, you do realize any scheme to regulate suffrage will be ran by ACORN right?
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a simple test on the top of a ballet. three questions.
1 which party is in control of the US Senate?
2 which party is in control of the US congress?
3 to which party does the current president belong?
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Whoa now. You're describing the Founding Fathers. Let's not romanticize the educated OR the uneducated. That isn't the real issue here.
Exactly. Who can vote is not the real issue.
In today's culture, the wealthy and educated are in general in favor of the current status-quo, because they benefit from it.
In the Roman Republic, though the poor technically could vote, a variety of limitations existed that de-facto set the system largely in favor of the wealthy [you had to be physically present in the city of Rome to vote – so they could pile in wealthy Roman citizens from all over, but only those poor who actually lived in Rome voted; the wealthy had something like 12 tribas, whereas the poor had 4, and so forth]. Yet none of this prevented the Roman Republic from failing.
Most importantly, the purpose of government is not solely to secure property. It is to secure the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Property is but a part of these.
But that is a moral stance, and it is of course impractical.
On a more practical reason, we need to remember that the socialists strive, politically, by creating groups of self-identification. The proletariat is not inherently anti-capitalist. It is when the proletariat (or the lumpen-proletariat) is persuaded that it should self-identify as a class, and that its interests are contrary to those of the capitalists, that it becomes anti-capitalist.
A very socialist professor of mine once remarked that the "problem" (I naturally view it as an advantage) of American culture is that workers in America don't identify themselves as 'proletariat' but as potential capitalists. As such – he claimed – they are less willing than Europeans to tolerate anti-capitalist measures, because they believe they might end up as capitalists tomorrow. You may remember Joe Wurzelbacher's [sp?] question for Obama as an example of this phenomenon.
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is how we should act if we are to defeat socialism. If we believe that certain classes of people, or races of people, or groups of people, are inherently anti-capitalist or anti-freedom, and forfeiting these groups to the socialist foe, we let the socialist win.
Instead of vacillating about how poor people [or minorities] should not vote, the proper thing to do is come up with ways to remind poor people that overregulation harms them by driving up prices on goods and closing off entry into the market (and dozens of other ways). [There is an excellent book out there by Thomas Sowell, for instance, describing how market regulation harms poor Afrcan-Americans].
The various social groups are not cast in stone, nor are they property of a given political entity.
A 17-year-old young man can be a socialist, or he can be a libertarian.
A worker can see himself as an oppressed proletarian or as a potential capitalist.
The work is not to prevent him from voting, the work is to persuade him that our version of self-identification is one that fits him best.
If Democrats were capable of persuading certain social groups that they were their "natural" constituency, we can do it right back.
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That would be sales tax and allow you to vote for state (or maybe city) issues.
Not federal.
Tie federal voting to federal income tax. Make it actually do something in our favor for once. No tax return with an amount paid value > 0 in the correct form 1040 box? No federal vote for you this year. No House of Reps, no Senate, no President.
Also tie it to eligibility for federal office.
Okay. Make that a gallon of gas. There, you've just paid federal taxes.
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Exactly. Who can vote is not the real issue.
In today's culture, the wealthy and educated are in general in favor of the current status-quo, because they benefit from it.
In the Roman Republic, though the poor technically could vote, a variety of limitations existed that de-facto set the system largely in favor of the wealthy [you had to be physically present in the city of Rome to vote – so they could pile in wealthy Roman citizens from all over, but only those poor who actually lived in Rome voted; the wealthy had something like 12 tribas, whereas the poor had 4, and so forth]. Yet none of this prevented the Roman Republic from failing.
Most importantly, the purpose of government is not solely to secure property. It is to secure the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Property is but a part of these.
But that is a moral stance, and it is of course impractical.
On a more practical reason, we need to remember that the socialists strive, politically, by creating groups of self-identification. The proletariat is not inherently anti-capitalist. It is when the proletariat (or the lumpen-proletariat) is persuaded that it should self-identify as a class, and that its interests are contrary to those of the capitalists, that it becomes anti-capitalist.
A very socialist professor of mine once remarked that the "problem" (I naturally view it as an advantage) of American culture is that workers in America don't identify themselves as 'proletariat' but as potential capitalists. As such – he claimed – they are less willing than Europeans to tolerate anti-capitalist measures, because they believe they might end up as capitalists tomorrow. You may remember Joe Wurzelbacher's [sp?] question for Obama as an example of this phenomenon.
I agree with ALL of your post, thought I shan't quote it all.
Let's address the resulting problem.
How do we convince the poor and the lower middle class that the Democrats are the party of economic enslavement and the Republicans are (or at least should be) the party of opportunity?
It's been done before...some guy named Reagan ran on that, maybe you've heard of him.
Bush ran on it, but didn't do much.
Then there was McCain, who was pushing cap & trade for the longest time before the issue was allowed to die quietly and slide off his platform.
That brings us to the next question...who is the candidate most likely to run on a strong economic liberty platform in 2012? Palin? Doubt it (though I do like the woman). Huckabee? No. Romney? Possibly, but I need more straight talk from him and less politicking. Ron Paul? NO!! HE'S UNELECTABLE!! HE'S PARANOID AND BELIEVE IN THE NWO AND BLACK HELICOPTERS AND HE WANTS TO AUDIT THE FED!!!1111 TOOOO RADICAL!!!!!11
He's also probably the biggest proponent of Liberty in Congress. 2012: Ron Paul, Warts and All...
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Look. I love Ron PAul as much as the other guy but it is quite clear he's too old, and his campaign staff too inept, to run successfully in 2012. Now, if we only had a younger Ron Paul, I'd go for it.
Or say, some Ron-Pauloid candidates planning to run for the 2010 Congessional elections...
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And this, ladies and gentlemen, is how we should act if we are to defeat socialism. If we believe that certain classes of people, or races of people, or groups of people, are inherently anti-capitalist or anti-freedom, and forfeiting these groups to the socialist foe, we let the socialist win.
Instead of vacillating about how poor people [or minorities] should not vote, the proper thing to do is come up with ways to remind poor people that overregulation harms them by driving up prices on goods and closing off entry into the market (and dozens of other ways). [There is an excellent book out there by Thomas Sowell, for instance, describing how market regulation harms poor Afrcan-Americans].
Your clever strategem will work equally "well" with the monarchists. Good luck. I don't, personally, have five lifetimes to wait for another possible Enlightenment to strike once we settle into a greenly comfortable but heavily policed feudalism. I think you have way too much faith in ordinary human nature; people love liberty, yes, but it wasn't really "the people" who developed the idea and promoted it and fought for it on the field of battle.
Reaganism is a wonderful thing, but it wil have a hard time today competing with Obamaism and Oprahism. Not only is the culture changed, the population and especially the voting population are too. Perhaps you haven't noticed who swings elections these days?
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A 17-year-old young man can be a socialist, or he can be a libertarian.
A worker can see himself as an oppressed proletarian or as a potential capitalist.
The work is not to prevent him from voting, the work is to persuade him that our version of self-identification is one that fits him best.
If Democrats were capable of persuading certain social groups that they were their "natural" constituency, we can do it right back.
While Tom Sowell is one of my favorite guys he has not discovered the answer to 96 per cent of black voters, with their own self-interest supposedly at stake, voting for BHO mainly because he was black. For many people voting has litle or nothing to do with a rational assessment of their situation, whether political, social, economic, or moral. "The man in the street" surveys should have made that abundantly clear already.
The 17-year-old young man you posit doesn't have to be a libertarian or a socialist. He can be what he usually has been in the past: a tribalist. And a gangster capitalist.
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BHO allegedly uses Soc.Sec.# 042-68-xxxx of CT man born in 1890; WHY? Uses DOZENS!
We have previously posted this information but it is below the radar of all of the mainstream news media. Obama has allegedly been fraudulently using Social Security Numbers of deceased persons as his own as well scores of addresses throughout the U.S. He has allegedly used dozens of Social Security Numbers and Obama's Aunt Zeituni, illegally living in Boston, allegedly may have used one of Obama's numbers. His most frequently used Soc.Sec.# is 042-68-xxxx, originally issued to a Connecticut man born in 1890! Why? Social Security FRAUD is an issue that everyone can understand. We challenge the Mainstream Media to investigate this, and if the allegations are true, Obama should be IMPEACHED and indicted for Social Security FRAUD, identity theft, lying on official forms, etc. Thanks to mainstream media's studious non-interest in Obama's background, he is the most under-investigated President in U.S. history. Barry, We Hardly Knew Ye!
Here is a letter from Neil Sankey, a registered Calif. Private Eye and former Scotland Yard Dectective, to attorney Orly Taitz regarding research he did into the numerous Social Security numbers allegedly used by Barack Obama. His most frequently used Soc. Sec. number is 042-68-xxxx, (the first three digits ("042") indicate that it is a number issued to residents of Connecticut, a State in which Obama apparently was never a resident. The man to whom the number was originally issued was born in 1890. (See first entry below). Interestingly, none of these numbers was purportedly issued to a person residing in Hawaii. A compilation of the complete data has been filed as an Exhibit to the lawsuit filed by Major Stefan Cook v. Obama alleging Obama's Constitutional ineligibility to serve as President. Here is a link from Orly Taitz' website. Scroll down the page: http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/blog1/?tag=taitz . This raises lots of additional issues such as his use of aliases, such as Barry Soetoro, and the different variations of his name (below) which apparently he somehow failed to mention to the State Bar of Illinois as one of his other names.
More Here (http://patriotskyline.blogspot.com/2009/07/bho-allegedly-uses-socsec-042-68-xxxx.html)
I'm at a loss as to what to think or say about this. This seems unimaginable!!!
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Interesting... from Thor's link:
Name - OBAMA, BARACK H
Gender - Male
Street Address - 5429 S HARPER AVE APT 1N
City, State, Zip - CHICAGO IL 60615-5548
Probable Current Address - No
Telephone -
Telephone Accountholder -
Social Security - 042-68-xxxx
Age - 47
Date of Birth - Aug 04, 1961
Deceased - No
Date Record Verified - Oct 86
Name - OBAMA, BARACK
Street Address - 713 HART SENATE
City, State, Zip - WASHINGTON DC 20510-0001
Probable Current Address - No
Telephone -
Telephone Accountholder -
Social Security - 282-80-xxxx
Age -
Date of Birth -
Deceased - No
Date Record Verified - Apr 08 - Nov 08
(this one COULD be a totally different Barack Obama, but c'mon...)
Name - OBAMA, BARACK
Street Address - 10131 53RD ST E
City, State, Zip - CHICAGO IL 60615
Probable Current Address - No
Telephone - 773-363-1996 - CST
Telephone Accountholder -
Social Security - 364-03-xxxx
Age -
Date of Birth -
Deceased - No
Date Record Verified - Mar 03 - Jul 03
(Dear Aunt Zaituni's place)
Name - OBAMA, BARACK HUSSEIN
Gender - Male
Street Address - 365 BROADWAY APT B1
City, State, Zip - SOMERVILLE MA 02145-2440
Probable Current Address - No
Telephone -
Telephone Accountholder -
Social Security - 042-68-xxxx
Age - 119
Date of Birth - 1890
Deceased - No
Date Record Verified -
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Name - OBAMA, BARACK
Street Address - 10131/2 53RD ST E
City, State, Zip - CHICAGO IL 60615
Probable Current Address - No
Telephone - 773-363-1996 - CST
Telephone Accountholder -
Social Security - 364-03-xxxx
Age -
Date of Birth -
Deceased - No
Date Record Verified - Mar 03 - Jul 03
**************************************
Name - OBAMA, BARACK
Gender - Male
Street Address - 5046 S GREENWOOD AVE
City, State, Zip - CHICAGO IL 60615-2806
Probable Current Address - Yes
Telephone -
Telephone Accountholder -
Social Security - 042-68-xxxx
Age -
Date of Birth -
Deceased - No
Date Record Verified - Jun 05 - Nov 05
More than 1 Barack Obama in the same zip code?
This is fun data, if at all true... =D
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I can't imagine that there could be more than a handful of Barack Obamas in the US. I know a few recently born children have been named after him, especially since the election. It'd be interesting to know all of their ages/ dates of birth.
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I'm at a loss as to what to think or say about this. This seems unimaginable!!!
Much as I detest Obama, much as I would like to see him nailed for something like this . . . I'd be VERY reluctant to accept this as fact unless there was a LOT of confirmation.
(Now, if I were the kind who wears tinfoil hats, I'd say it could even be a phony story deliberately floated by some college Obamunist majoring in general studies who's trying to sucker in people who don't worship The One, hoping they'll run with the story and be discredited when it's proven false. Phony stories of underhanded shennanigans can "innoculate" against REAL stuff that may come out later.)
There's PLENTY of legitimate material to criticize BHO over - let's not get into questionable stuff.
*****************
At least one address on AZRedhawk44's post ("Street Address - 10131 53RD ST E") looks unusual for Chicago; typically, it would be written "10131 E 53RD ST" . . . I don't have a map with me, but the number 10131 seems awfully high, too . . . I'd expect something numbered that high east to be out in Lake Michigan somewhere.
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At least one address on AZRedhawk44's post ("Street Address - 10131 53RD ST E") looks unusual for Chicago; typically, it would be written "10131 E 53RD ST" . . . I don't have a map with me, but the number 10131 seems awfully high, too . . . I'd expect something numbered that high east to be out in Lake Michigan somewhere.
Yep. 10131 does not exist. 1031 appears to be about 1 mile from the waterfront to the east.
The Greenwood address is valid, and only a couple blocks away from 1031. I wonder if 10131 is a typo? I also see a mention to 10131/2, so it could be 1013 1/2 (1013 and a half, 1013.5) as in a small tiny little sublet apartment).
Another theory running around is these addresses were used to launder campaign contributions. Remember the anonymous $199 credit card contributions?
1013 E. 53rd St. is Ellis Currency Exchange. They could have a back room office with an address of 1013 1/2.
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At least one address on AZRedhawk44's post ("Street Address - 10131 53RD ST E") looks unusual for Chicago; typically, it would be written "10131 E 53RD ST" . . . I don't have a map with me, but the number 10131 seems awfully high, too . . . I'd expect something numbered that high east to be out in Lake Michigan somewhere.
Hank, if you are looking for Barack's old condo, before he bought the house where he is now, he was in Chicago off 54th Street. It would be a four digit South East View Park address (Chicago 60615).
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ROTF
And you guys called the truthers crazy . . . at least they had circumstantial evidence.
Forget about the birth certificate , We will not rest until Obama show's the entire country his social security card!
All based on internet postings that anyone could have typed. . . .
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ROTF
And you guys called the truthers crazy . . . at least they had circumstantial evidence.
Forget about the birth certificate , We will not rest until Obama show's the entire country his social security card!
All based on internet postings that anyone could have typed. . . .
He'd better get Lifelock, first.
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BREAKING NEWS!!!! Shocking proof that Obama was not born in Hawaii!!1! (http://blog.robballen.com/2009/07/28/p3639-breaking-news-shocking-proof-that-obama-was-not.post)
:angel:
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BREAKING NEWS!!!! Shocking proof that Obama was not born in Hawaii!!1! (http://blog.robballen.com/2009/07/28/p3639-breaking-news-shocking-proof-that-obama-was-not.post)
:angel:
Comment #1 on the blog site for the win....
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Comment #1 on the blog site for the win....
Can we say the note is a fake, but the story is true? :laugh:
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I'd be interested in knowing just how many "Barack Obamas" are here in the US. Sure the note could be a con-job. There's enough anti- Obama sentiment out there. I'd also like to know the ages/dates of birth of these different Obamas. It just doesn't seem like all that common of a name. However, like the birth certificate issue, this will never come to a head.
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I'd be interested in knowing just how many "Barack Obamas" are here in the US. Sure the note could be a con-job. There's enough anti- Obama sentiment out there. I'd also like to know the ages/dates of birth of these different Obamas. It just doesn't seem like all that common of a name. However, like the birth certificate issue, this will never come to a head.
Is it a conspiracy against the American people by all the Barack Obamas in the US? =D
I think we need Barack Obama detention camps. Just until we're sure.
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Obama: not a name but a brand.
Or is it a genotype?
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more like an infection :O as in did that obama you caught from that ho clear up yet haha :angel:
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I did a people search on whitepages.com and it only turned up TWO "Barack Obamas" Barack Obama (http://www.whitepages.com/search/FindPerson?firstname_begins_with=1&firstname=Barack+&name=Obama&where=) and eight Barack, Barrack, Borack or Brack Obamas and then a total of 41 "Obamas" Obama (http://www.whitepages.com/search/FindPerson?firstname_begins_with=1&firstname=&name=Obama&where=) I will admit that there were some blatantly fraudulent entries (3 or 4, maybe more) This was a nationwide search. No entries for "Soetoro".
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Presented without comment:
http://howmanyofme.com/people/Barack_Obama/
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Presented without comment:
http://howmanyofme.com/people/Barack_Obama/
Don't know what DB's they're pulling from but seems like they should show more if there were a bunch of fraudulent SS entries.
Unless of course certain DB's have been "cleaned up." This is Soros we're dealing with after all.
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I believe that site is based on statistical likelihoods, not on a database of actual people.
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As part of our constant attempt to keep this site fresh, we've updated our data with recently released last name information from the 2000 Census. In many cases the number of people with a particular name changed significantly, but the new data is more recent, more precise, and includes almost twice as many last names.
;/
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Aside from the Troofer/Threeper/Paulian/Furry disdain that "some folks" have for discussion of this topic on APS and in particular in the Politics forum of APS...
It just struck me as depressing: Whether true or false, a topic that we all consider inherently "political" is being decided by our court system.
And... we need a derogatory name for folks who follow the Birth Certificate fiasco to fit with Threeper and Troofer.
COLBer? Stephen Colbert might take humbrage at that.
Barriers? Those who chase Barry Soetero and want to block him from further damage?
C'mon, APS! We need a name!
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They're/we're already being called Birthers...
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They're/we're already being called Birthers...
WE are being called Birthers.
Show me the cert!
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It just struck me as depressing: Whether true or false, a topic that we all consider inherently "political" is being decided by our court system.
Um, no. It's not a policitcal issue. It's a simple procedural paperwork issue. There may be political ramifications of it. But it in itself isn't political.
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Guys, we're gonna have to give up the search for the mythical "long form." Just look at the circumstances of Obama's birth. You can't expect the physician to have had all the proper paperwork when he was called out to that stable in the middle of the night, to find a babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.
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They're/we're already being called Birthers...
We can't be "Birthers."
Because when he buys off the court system and we still push the issue, we're gonna get called AfterBirthers. That's gross. I don't want to be an AfterBirther. =D
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We can't be "Birthers."
Because when he buys off the court system and we still push the issue, we're gonna get called AfterBirthers. That's gross. I don't want to be an AfterBirther. =D
Eew.
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I see Ann Coulter has gone rogue.
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Fisty for the win.
This one is wandering around like a drunk on a unicycle people. Bring it back on track. Any new developments, besides faked memos being leaked on blogs?
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I have won this thread twice. I proclaim myself King.
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This one is wandering around like a drunk on a unicycle people. Bring it back on track. Any new developments, besides faked memos being leaked on blogs?
Well, there are your thinly veiled attempts to cover it up.
Someone who lives closer to this guy waterboard him until he talks. Then waterboard him some more anyway.
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This one is wandering around like a drunk on a unicycle people.
Don't ALL our threads do that?.... ???
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I think I'll take credit for the win. Obama's an alien. Birth is the least of it. Does it matter what the details are? Not really, because there are so many. What matters is that he doesn't represent America and is deliberate opaque, his vital history concealed by design. I think we know that something akin to a conspiracy has stymied the vaunted "transparency" he was trumpeting before his Election. If the media had been honorable people he wouldn't be anywhere near the White House right now. This whole election is a de facto fraud in my mind, but then a lot of America has become fraudulent in my lifetime, so it's no surprise that we are now facing serious trouble.
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When I first read the Longeyes post I read 'alien' as space alien.
But yes... Fistful is our new King. The old monarchies only taxed 1/12 right? And they took over new land and threw great parties... All Hail Fistful!
=D
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Long live King Fistful!
When do we go pillaging, my liege?
Where shall your capitol be? And whom shall we plunder first in tribute to your wisdom and as example of the might of your armies?
Pilllaging, lower taxes, no "President" Obama... what's not to like?
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And whom shall we plunder first?
I'm old-fashioned. Ladies first.
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Long live King Fistful!
When do we go pillaging, my liege?
I'm all for pillaging and plunder and raping and murdering and selling into slavery....just as long as we do them in the right order.... =|
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I think I shall pillage this thread, which is now so far off topic that it will never be brought back again....