Author Topic: CNN: Sikhs fight Army over bans on turbans, uncut hair  (Read 29677 times)

doczinn

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Re: CNN: Sikhs fight Army over bans on turbans, uncut hair
« Reply #75 on: April 19, 2009, 12:20:05 AM »
Yes, but not with helmets or gas masks on, thus irrelevant to my point.
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MillCreek

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Re: CNN: Sikhs fight Army over bans on turbans, uncut hair
« Reply #76 on: April 19, 2009, 01:09:21 AM »
Somewhat on point, back when I was in the fire service, some vendors put out some SCBA masks especially designed for people with beards.  I had read articles in the fire journals that in some areas of the US and Canada, the volunteer fire departments were staffed with Amish and other people who wear full beards for religious reasons.  Those departments generally had to get a waiver from the OSHA requirements that firefighters be clean-shaven for purposes of mask fit.  The last time I looked at the NFPA standards, they required only that a mask fit test be passed and did not forbid a beard.

This is still quite the issue of controversy in the fire service, and most departments will allow only a mustache, and some of them will allow a beard as long as you can pass a mask fit test.  A short beard generally allows a fit test.  There have been a lot of lawsuits and human rights complaints on the issue of a beard in the fire service. 

I know some members on the board were active duty USN during the Zumwalt years when beards were permitted.  What is your recollection with the SCBA gear and gas masks? 
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Hawkmoon

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Re: CNN: Sikhs fight Army over bans on turbans, uncut hair
« Reply #77 on: April 19, 2009, 01:52:19 AM »
There's a huge difference between SCBA gear and a gas mask. With SCBA gear, air is being supplied under pressure from the tank on your back. With a gas mask, every time you inhale you create a vacuum inside the mask. If the fit isn't good -- not just "good" but hermetically good -- every time you inhale you draw in gas from around the mask rather than through the filter cannisters.

The Sikh officer from Canada said he didn't have any problem putting a helmet over his turban, but I didn't notice that he mentioned anything about surviving  a hostile chemical attack.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: CNN: Sikhs fight Army over bans on turbans, uncut hair
« Reply #78 on: April 19, 2009, 02:54:59 AM »
Yes, but not with helmets or gas masks on, thus irrelevant to my point.

IDF training mandates being able to rapidly put on a gas mask and make it fit properly. You can't do that, you don't pass basic training. Obviously, these people passed basic training. One of them is an officer (though I can't fault you for not knowing that).

Here's some guys in helmets:



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Dannyboy

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Re: CNN: Sikhs fight Army over bans on turbans, uncut hair
« Reply #79 on: April 19, 2009, 08:34:52 AM »
IDF training mandates being able to rapidly put on a gas mask and make it fit properly. You can't do that, you don't pass basic training. Obviously, these people passed basic training. One of them is an officer (though I can't fault you for not knowing that).

Here's some guys in helmets:




I'd have to see these guys come out of a gas chamber with no adverse effects before I believed that they actually were able to get a good seal with a pro mask.
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agricola

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Re: CNN: Sikhs fight Army over bans on turbans, uncut hair
« Reply #80 on: April 19, 2009, 10:04:46 AM »
I'd have to see these guys come out of a gas chamber with no adverse effects before I believed that they actually were able to get a good seal with a pro mask.

Not taking the mick here, but that is the IDF we are talking about... surely its safe to assume that they have made sure that their gas masks actually work with hirsute troops?
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Dannyboy

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Re: CNN: Sikhs fight Army over bans on turbans, uncut hair
« Reply #81 on: April 19, 2009, 10:14:34 AM »
Not taking the mick here, but that is the IDF we are talking about... surely its safe to assume that they have made sure that their gas masks actually work with hirsute troops?
I'm sure they think they have but I'd have to see it to believe it.  Then again, maybe they have a mask that actually allows for beards.  I'm still skeptical.
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Firethorn

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Re: CNN: Sikhs fight Army over bans on turbans, uncut hair
« Reply #82 on: April 19, 2009, 10:29:13 AM »
Not taking the mick here, but that is the IDF we are talking about... surely its safe to assume that they have made sure that their gas masks actually work with hirsute troops?

I don't know; what are the actual concerns Israel has for chemical attacks?  Would they consider an emergency order 'shave dudes!' if an actual, imminent threat of chemical attack presented itself sufficient?

I think that we've determined that there's at least a CONCERN that current protective equipment wouldn't be as efficient, much like for fire fighters.

They might be able to get away with the 'miniature' turban, putting it under the cap while out side, etc... 

BTW, I found an article on the fire department issue - it seems that each agency ends up balancing their need for quality recruits against the gas mask safety issue.  Rural departments in areas heavily populated by beard-wearers are more likely to make exceptions because they otherwise just can't get the recruits.

Perd Hapley

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Re: CNN: Sikhs fight Army over bans on turbans, uncut hair
« Reply #83 on: April 19, 2009, 10:35:59 AM »
Taking the mick? 
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Re: CNN: Sikhs fight Army over bans on turbans, uncut hair
« Reply #84 on: April 19, 2009, 11:25:09 AM »
I don't know; what are the actual concerns Israel has for chemical attacks?

Uh, you are familiar with Israel, arent you?  Little country with really bad neighbors? 

Frankly, if they say it seals with a beard, it does.


agricola

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Re: CNN: Sikhs fight Army over bans on turbans, uncut hair
« Reply #85 on: April 19, 2009, 11:33:34 AM »
Uh, you are familiar with Israel, arent you?  Little country with really bad neighbors? 

Frankly, if they say it seals with a beard, it does.



Well yes, and IIRC they were the last Western country to have (during GW1) a mass distribution of gas masks, no?

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Firethorn

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Re: CNN: Sikhs fight Army over bans on turbans, uncut hair
« Reply #86 on: April 19, 2009, 12:15:34 PM »
Uh, you are familiar with Israel, arent you?  Little country with really bad neighbors? 

I've also read that due to the climate chemical weapons tend to be less effective.  They break down quickly under the heat.

Learned that from the NBC guys in Iraq.

doczinn

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Re: CNN: Sikhs fight Army over bans on turbans, uncut hair
« Reply #87 on: April 19, 2009, 02:17:19 PM »
Quote
Here's some guys in helmets:
And without turbans. Still irrelevant.

Until I see some sort of proof, I just don't believe that a gas mask can fully seal over a full beard. A really short one? Maybe, but that's not what's at issue.
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Re: CNN: Sikhs fight Army over bans on turbans, uncut hair
« Reply #88 on: April 19, 2009, 03:57:40 PM »

Taking the mick? 


"Taking the mickey", British expression, polite way of saying "Taking the piss". In the context here he's saying, "I'm not saying this just to stir things up, but..."

In general usage a Brit who thinks his leg is being pulled will say, "Are you taking the piss?" Chivvying a mate over something is described as "good-natured piss-taking".

I have a long-time Web-friend in Kent who explained all this to me once.

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dogmush

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Re: CNN: Sikhs fight Army over bans on turbans, uncut hair
« Reply #89 on: April 19, 2009, 05:11:44 PM »
Frankly, if they say it seals with a beard, it does.

I have to disagree here.

I've run through enough CS chambers where I have personally seen US soilders with shaving profiles swear up and down that their mask was sealed get one good breath and then start coughing and tearing.  On US masks, with most folks, it takes about 1/2" to 3/4" long facial hair to break the seal.  I've seen it over and over again.  They'll even pull a vacuum outside and still leak (slowly) in the chamber.

I'll give the IDF guys the benifit of the doubt and say that their pro-mask fit the last time they tested it, but I'll bet it doesn't now.

Firethorn

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Re: CNN: Sikhs fight Army over bans on turbans, uncut hair
« Reply #90 on: April 19, 2009, 05:32:34 PM »
It makes me wonder.  Would the religious authorities involved make an exception if it came down to being a health/welfare issue?

Yes.  Shaving is a sin.  So isn't eating pork/non-kosher/whatever.  But there have already been exemptions made if there's no other choice.

MicroBalrog

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Re: CNN: Sikhs fight Army over bans on turbans, uncut hair
« Reply #91 on: April 19, 2009, 06:31:23 PM »
Well yes, and IIRC they were the last Western country to have (during GW1) a mass distribution of gas masks, no?



WE had a full distribution of gas masks during GW2, too.

A gas mask was issued to absolutely every citizen in the country, and - because the goverment genuinely believed that Iraq, in a final act of desperation, would lash out and fire chemical weapons at is - they got to the point of advising everybody to unpack them and learn to put them on.

Now that Iraq is not a military threat this is not such an issue, but it used to be that children starting with primary schools were taught how to put on gas masks and use atropine injectors. The military just reiterated on that knowledge.
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Balog

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Re: CNN: Sikhs fight Army over bans on turbans, uncut hair
« Reply #92 on: April 22, 2009, 03:31:32 PM »
If you live in a country ruled (at least in part) by super-radical religious zealots, I could absolutely see their .mil being forced to accept religious restrictions that lessen readiness.
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Marnoot

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Re: CNN: Sikhs fight Army over bans on turbans, uncut hair
« Reply #93 on: April 22, 2009, 03:59:51 PM »
If you are an observant Mormon, and wear the 'temple garment' as underwear, I wonder if you are allowed to keep doing so in the military. 

You are; I've known several. Though they wear olive drab ones instead of the traditional white, at the very least while in combat attire, to avoid any flashes of white that would compromise their camo.

Matthew Carberry

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Re: CNN: Sikhs fight Army over bans on turbans, uncut hair
« Reply #94 on: April 22, 2009, 04:02:32 PM »
If you live in a country ruled (at least in part) by super-radical religious zealots, I could absolutely see their .mil being forced to accept religious restrictions that lessen readiness.

Like porn and liquor bans on bases?

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Hawkmoon

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Re: CNN: Sikhs fight Army over bans on turbans, uncut hair
« Reply #95 on: April 22, 2009, 11:03:46 PM »
Not taking the mick here, but that is the IDF we are talking about... surely its safe to assume that they have made sure that their gas masks actually work with hirsute troops?

Assume all you want. A good many years after going through Army Basic Training and the tear gas tent debacle, I had occasion in the line of (civilian) work to be fitted for a chemical protection mask. The process takes (or took, then) about an hour per person in order to ensure a good, hermetic seal. As I commented above, a passive mask with filter cannisters relies on SUCTION to draw air in through the filters. The filters, if they're any good, introduce restriction to the flow of air. If air can enter the mask easier by going around the edges rather than through the filter cannister(s) -- it will do so. Facial hair does NOT alllow for a hermetic seal, and trying to compensate for that by tightening the straps more than should be necessary is only partially effective.
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