Author Topic: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?  (Read 101486 times)

cordex

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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #275 on: January 29, 2013, 09:46:43 AM »
CMP does have Aquila target .22LR but only for a case of 5000 at $315 plus $25 shipping. Anybody want to split a case? I'd like to try a few hundred before I commit to that much. I'll cover shipping to my house and turn it over for cost plus shipping to your house. Long as it's all legal and proper like to do so.
Sure.  What kind of split do you want?

I'm curious as to how this affects law enforcement. Do they get priority, or are they in line like everyone else? From a profit only standpoint, outlets like Cabela's would be the priority, since they likely buy more ammo than all US law enforcement combined.
I haven't talked to my local department, but some are feeling the squeeze:
http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/public-safety-agencies-facing-ammo-shortage/nTqgG/

erictank

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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #276 on: January 29, 2013, 11:22:19 AM »
CMP does have Aquila target .22LR but only for a case of 5000 at $315 plus $25 shipping. Anybody want to split a case? I'd like to try a few hundred before I commit to that much. I'll cover shipping to my house and turn it over for cost plus shipping to your house. Long as it's all legal and proper like to do so.

oops, wrong thread.  :facepalm:

I'll leave it here anyways.

I'm in too, for 1K. PM'd.

brimic

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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #277 on: January 29, 2013, 04:40:28 PM »
Anyone have an idea how much an unissued, barely shot Yugo SKS or a Service grade M1 Garand (H&R) might bring on the open market right now?
I'm almost considering selling a few pieces if the prices are inflated enough...
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Ben

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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #278 on: January 29, 2013, 04:47:25 PM »
I just got the monthly CMP email. They are selling service grade M1s for $625, some "collector grade" service grades that I haven't seen before for $950, and their CMP rebuilds for $995.
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brimic

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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #279 on: January 29, 2013, 05:47:27 PM »
I just got the monthly CMP email. They are selling service grade M1s for $625, some "collector grade" service grades that I haven't seen before for $950, and their CMP rebuilds for $995.
Well that's still $200 more than I paid for it, street prices usually are much higher.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #280 on: January 29, 2013, 05:48:31 PM »
Garands typically sell for 50% more than CMP prices in normal times.  Today... twice CMP prices?
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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #281 on: January 29, 2013, 05:57:05 PM »
Talked to my 71YO mom last night.  Next time we travel there or she travels here, I will get her spun up and help her buy a pistol and shotgun.
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erictank

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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #283 on: February 03, 2013, 05:37:52 PM »
Was able to place an order for 3x19rd mags with Springfield Armory for $34 each. Of course, they did say that it could take 6-8 weeks to get them.

Everywhere that had them cheaper (one place advertised $27 each) was out of stock, most of them said no backorders permitted.

I'll let you know when (if?) they come in.

And here we are, about 3 weeks after placing the order, and my pistol mags are in. No 9mm ammo on hand, no pistol, but I've got three normal-capacity mags for that entry-grade-3-gun-competition pistol I don't have. It's a start.

lee n. field

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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #284 on: February 03, 2013, 09:10:22 PM »
Lined from Preacherman's blog (The Great Ammo Drought of 2013):

UPDATE: Status of Gun Industry

Quote
    Attention F.B. fans: to follow will be several IMPORTANT Info updates about the status of the gun industry currently, followed by an INVENTORY UPDATE: We traveled to Texas for Industry meetings concerning the shortages, here's what we were told.

    Smith & Wesson-is running at Full capacity making 300+ guns/day-mainly M&P pistols. They are unable to produce any more guns to help with the shortages.

    RUGER: Plans to increase from 75% to 100% in the next 90 days.

    FNH: Moving from 50% production to 75% by Feb 1st and 100% by March 1. Remington-Maxed out!

    Armalite: Maxed out.

    DPMS: Can't get enough parts to produce any more product.

    COLT: Production runs increasing weekly...bottle necked by Bolt carrier's.

    LWRC:Making only black guns, running at full capacity...can't get enough gun quality steel to make barrels.

    Springfield Armory: Only company who can meet demand but are running 30-45 days behind.

    AMMO: Every caliber is now Allocated! We are looking at a nation wide shortage of all calibers over the next 9 months. All plants are producing as much ammo as possible w/ of 1 BILLION rounds produced weekly. Most is military followed by L.E. and civilians are third in line.

    MAGPUL is behind 1 MILLION mags, do not expect any large quantities of magpul anytime soon.

    RELOADERS... ALL Remington, Winchester, CCI & Federal primers are going to ammo FIRST. There are no extra's for reloading purposes... it could be 6-9 months before things get caught up. Sorry for the bleak news, but now we know what to expect in the coming months. Stay tuned, we'll keep you posted...


Related commentary from Bob Owens:

    They didn’t know when they’d be getting anything back in stock, from magazines to rifles to pistols. Manufacturers were running full-bore, but couldn’t come close to keeping up with market demand. It wasn’t just the AR-15s, the AK-pattern rifles, the M1As, and the FALs that were sold out. It really hit me when I realized that the World War-era M1 Garands, M1 carbines, and Enfield .303s were gone, along with every last shell. Ubiquitous Mosin-Nagants—of which every gun store always seems to have 10-20—were gone. So was their ammo. Only a dust free space marked their passing. I’ve never seen anything like it.

    Every weapon of military utility designed within the past 100+ years was gone. This isn’t a society stocking up on certain guns because they fear they may be banned. This is a society preparing for war.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #285 on: February 03, 2013, 09:28:44 PM »
Quote
   AMMO: Every caliber is now Allocated! We are looking at a nation wide shortage of all calibers over the next 9 months. All plants are producing as much ammo as possible w/ of 1 BILLION rounds produced weekly. Most is military followed by L.E. and civilians are third in line.

 :mad:

This will be remembered.

Instead of taking the powder and shot from the colonial powder house, they're just intercepting it by means of "just in time" inventory and military/industrial complex favoritism.

I REALLY would like to start an ammunition company right now.  And refuse orders for MIL/LEO, flat-out.
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Boomhauer

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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #286 on: February 03, 2013, 09:42:09 PM »
:mad:

This will be remembered.

Instead of taking the powder and shot from the colonial powder house, they're just intercepting it by means of "just in time" inventory and military/industrial complex favoritism.

I REALLY would like to start an ammunition company right now.  And refuse orders for MIL/LEO, flat-out.

Yes because posted on the internet makes it truth.

Military ammo is sourced from Lake City so it really doesnt have much of an effect on civilian production. Fed and most LE ammo is sourced through contracts where the supplier who bids and wins must supply that ammo as outlined in the contract regardless of an unusual market...and at the price agreed upon in the contract.


But hell that automatically means all ammo is going straight to all the JBTs!!!!!!


Jesus Christ...look the ammo is being produced and snapped up as soon as it is by your fellow citizens.
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lee n. field

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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #287 on: February 03, 2013, 09:43:47 PM »
Quote
I REALLY would like to start an ammunition company right now.  And refuse orders for MIL/LEO, flat-out.

Small scale boutique production wouldn't take that much.  But, you'd be getting primers, powder, bullets and brass from where?

I'm even seeing chit chat various places about hand refurbishing expended primers.
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Ben

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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #288 on: February 03, 2013, 09:57:45 PM »
Quote
RELOADERS... ALL Remington, Winchester, CCI & Federal primers are going to ammo FIRST. There are no extra's for reloading purposes... it could be 6-9 months before things get caught up. Sorry for the bleak news, but now we know what to expect in the coming months. Stay tuned, we'll keep you posted...

Holy crap. If accurate, that will be the longest lasting shortage I can remember. I'll have to reevaluate in three or so months and see if I need to adjust my pistol shooting to make my supplies last.

EDIT: I actually can't remember when there ever WAS a primer shortage. I think there's been a few times I can remember a 2-3 week backorder on some types, but never a months long shortage.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 12:38:22 AM by Ben »
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lee n. field

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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #289 on: February 03, 2013, 10:08:41 PM »
I expect I'll be shooting a lot more .22 than normal.
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seeker_two

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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #290 on: February 03, 2013, 10:09:48 PM »
I expect I'll be shooting a lot more .22 than normal.

......if you can find any.....
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Fly320s

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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #291 on: February 03, 2013, 10:27:35 PM »
Looks like I picked the right year to curtail my shooting.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #292 on: February 03, 2013, 10:34:22 PM »
Yes because posted on the internet makes it truth.

Military ammo is sourced from Lake City so it really doesnt have much of an effect on civilian production. Fed and most LE ammo is sourced through contracts where the supplier who bids and wins must supply that ammo as outlined in the contract regardless of an unusual market...and at the price agreed upon in the contract.


But hell that automatically means all ammo is going straight to all the JBTs!!!!!!


Jesus Christ...look the ammo is being produced and snapped up as soon as it is by your fellow citizens.

Lake City = ATK/Federal/CCI.

All Federal/CCI primers will be going to Lake City rather than the civvie market.

Winchester has a "WCC" headstamp that is a NATO headstamp, not quite as popular as LC but it's out there.  I don't know if they have .mil contracts right now or not, but if so, say goodbye to Winchester primers.

I don't know much about Remington.  I've never used their primers but they seem 3rd or 4th man down on the totem pole.  Far lower market share than CCI and Winchester.


Just FYI, the Lake City plant makes the XM193 55gr load that Federal sells umpteen million rounds of to civvies for their AR's.  They just change the headstamp die in the brass machine so it doesn't say "LC 13" or whatever the year is, to say "FEDERAL."
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AJ Dual

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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #293 on: February 03, 2013, 10:36:17 PM »
Yes because posted on the internet makes it truth.

Military ammo is sourced from Lake City so it really doesnt have much of an effect on civilian production. Fed and most LE ammo is sourced through contracts where the supplier who bids and wins must supply that ammo as outlined in the contract regardless of an unusual market...and at the price agreed upon in the contract.


But hell that automatically means all ammo is going straight to all the JBTs!!!!!!


Jesus Christ...look the ammo is being produced and snapped up as soon as it is by your fellow citizens.

I've been posting the same thing on other Facebook threads in response to this blurb about the ammo and gun mfg's status.

It's called a CONTRACT... CON - TRACT...  Lawyers and stuff.  =)
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Boomhauer

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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #294 on: February 03, 2013, 11:01:28 PM »
Lake City = ATK/Federal/CCI.

All Federal/CCI primers will be going to Lake City rather than the civvie market.

Winchester has a "WCC" headstamp that is a NATO headstamp, not quite as popular as LC but it's out there.  I don't know if they have .mil contracts right now or not, but if so, say goodbye to Winchester primers.

I don't know much about Remington.  I've never used their primers but they seem 3rd or 4th man down on the totem pole.  Far lower market share than CCI and Winchester.


Just FYI, the Lake City plant makes the XM193 55gr load that Federal sells umpteen million rounds of to civvies for their AR's.  They just change the headstamp die in the brass machine so it doesn't say "LC 13" or whatever the year is, to say "FEDERAL."

Yes I know exactly who Lake City is run by. And the military nor the feds are suddenly consuming more than normal levels either.
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Scout26

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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #295 on: February 04, 2013, 12:30:27 AM »
I guess I'll have to write a post about production planning.  Just because the demand suddenly spikes, doesn't mean that they are curtailing civilian sales it means that they had forecast their ammo production for the year.   So they order things like brass for cases, and they specify that they want certain quantities delivered at certain times, same with the chemicals used in primers.  You really don't want a lot of that sitting around.  A year's worth would be a huge hazard/liability.  You order it so that smaller quantities arrive shortly before needed.  Same with powder and bullets.  All that stuff sitting in a warehouse is $$$.  Money that you can't use otherwise because it's lying on a shelf or on a pallet.

And then there are the machines.  You can only produce as fast as the slowest machine (the bottleneck) on the line.   You can try to speed up, but often that results in QC problems.  Not to mention downtime for repairs.   When I worked in the paint can industry we could produce X cans in hour with an average of 2 minutes of maintenance per hour needed for the machines.  If we tried to speed them up to x+10%, then maintenance required increased to 12 minutes per hour.  It was harder on the machines to go faster, and QC sucked as we created more problems.

Also change-overs.  Going from one "style" of can to another averaged about 2 hours of down time as we re-calibrated the welders, seamers, and other machines.  Change sizes (from pint to half-pint, quart to pint or gallon to tall gallons) required anywhere from a few hours to several days to complete.  We use to only run half-pint cans once a year for 3 weeks simply because it generally took 2-4 (24 hour)days to do the line change-over, each time.  So we'd lose on average a weeks worth+ (we ran 24/6) of production off one line.  OUCH!!!!   Again, a machine not running was a machine not making money, but in the meantime we're paying a small army of mechanics to fiddle with the machines to get them to run the new size of cans.

That's what they are up against.  Years of data of sales trends (anyone remember what happened with .380 a couple of years ago, when something like 6 new .380 pistols came out and suddenly no one could find .380 ammo?)  is used to determine purchasing of raw materials and stocking levels.  So product gets ordered to be delivered on a schedule, production schedules are set to maximize the use of the machines and limit downtime.  

Lake City and other defense contractors have been slowly reducing their operations due to the end of the war in Iraq and the winding down of Afghanistan.  No one saw the panic coming.   So they are setup to produce for what contracts they have, first and foremost.  Trust me Uncle Sugar gets real pissy when you fail to deliver on his contracts as agreed.  (Our Homerville, GA plant made the Ammo cans for Lake City.  And whenever there was a problem there with Ammo Can production, people and machines got re-allocated to ensure we met those delivery targets, our other customers got de-prioritized.)

So no it's not some wild conspiracy, or they are not out to stop you from buying ammo.  It's that there is a panic on.  Contracts get honored first and they are doing what they can to meet the demand that suddenly and dramatically increased.  It's simply that stuff is flying off the shelves as soon as they can make it and ship it.

 ;/ ;/ ;/  
  
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 10:26:07 AM by scout26 »
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Gewehr98

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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #296 on: February 04, 2013, 12:32:48 AM »
I take some of this info with a big grain of salt.

Why?

Because reloading powder and powder used for factory ammo are two different beasts.

You and I as reloaders buy what's called "canister" powder.  It's formulated to stay exceptionally consistent from lot-to-lot.  Your can of IMR4895 you bought to keep your M1 Garand running?

That's canister powder.

The powder that RemFedChester uses to make their ammo?  That's "bulk" powder, and is allowed to have some variation - the manufacturers simply vary the loading to provide consistent pressures and velocities as lots of bulk powder come out of the mills.  

That's not saying bulk powder cannot be tested and packaged as canister.  And it certainly doesn't rule out nitrocotton/nitrocellulose itself being in short supply for either powder stream.

But it doesn't sound correct to say that reloading powder is being diverted to ammo manufacture.   =|
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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #297 on: February 04, 2013, 01:19:49 AM »
I guess I'll have to write a post about production planning....

...Contracts get honored first and they are doing what they can to meet the demand that suddenly and dramatically increased.  It's simply that stuff is flying off the shelves as soon as they can make it and ship it.

 ;/ ;/ ;/ 
   

This times 1000x.

And even before the '08 and the current '12/'13 panics, not even related to ammo, I've been trying in vain to explain stuff like this when people whine on other forums (Even KTOG) or Facebook about Keltec products that have been unobtanium like the RFB, the PMR30 and the KSG.

Tooling, employment, floor space, CNC machines, it all takes time to set up, and beyond that, expanding to meet the demand they have NOW can ruin the company financially in the future when the demand is met and falls back.

Even if one is to assume for the sake of argument that gearing up for the current level of ammo demand for this year was logistically possible, paying off the financing for such expansion for 10, or 20 years to cover a one year spike in demand rarely pays off unless your margins are into several hundred percent.
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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #298 on: February 04, 2013, 01:29:12 AM »
I take some of this info with a big grain of salt.

Why?

Because reloading powder and powder used for factory ammo are two different beasts.
I didn't see any mention of powder specifically in that post.  The bottleneck I saw referenced was primers.  Are production primers different than reloading primers?

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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #299 on: February 04, 2013, 01:44:29 AM »
Scout and AJ thats what Ive been trying to tell people but your average person simply refuses to believe it or think logically. But no, instead the manufacturers must be holding down production so they can charge more or the feds are buying it all up or the feds are leaning on the manufacturers to not ramp up production...otherwise they can just flip a switch and double production!
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Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...

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OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

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