Author Topic: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?  (Read 101488 times)

Perd Hapley

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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #300 on: February 04, 2013, 02:40:00 AM »
Lined from Preacherman's blog (The Great Ammo Drought of 2013):

UPDATE: Status of Gun Industry

Quote
Attention F.B. fans: to follow will be several IMPORTANT Info updates about the status of the gun industry currently, followed by an INVENTORY UPDATE: We traveled to Texas for Industry meetings concerning the shortages, here's what we were told.

....

    AMMO: Every caliber is now Allocated! We are looking at a nation wide shortage of all calibers over the next 9 months. All plants are producing as much ammo as possible w/ of 1 BILLION rounds produced weekly. Most is military followed by L.E. and civilians are third in line.

    MAGPUL is behind 1 MILLION mags, do not expect any large quantities of magpul anytime soon.

    RELOADERS... ALL Remington, Winchester, CCI & Federal primers are going to ammo FIRST. There are no extra's for reloading purposes... it could be 6-9 months before things get caught up. Sorry for the bleak news, but now we know what to expect in the coming months. Stay tuned, we'll keep you posted....


Does anyone know the situation on imported ammo or components? Their products are commanding higher prices here, so won't they be shipping more our way?


Tooling, employment, floor space, CNC machines, it all takes time to set up, and beyond that, expanding to meet the demand they have NOW can ruin the company financially in the future when the demand is met and falls back.

Even if one is to assume for the sake of argument that gearing up for the current level of ammo demand for this year was logistically possible, paying off the financing for such expansion for 10, or 20 years to cover a one year spike in demand rarely pays off unless your margins are into several hundred percent.


If ammo (or at least the most desirable ammo) remains unobtainable for 9 months, won't that make an indelible impression in the mind of gun owners? Won't demand be higher for the next 10 or 20 years (or more?), as private stockpiles grow larger and more common? Could that justify at least some "gearing up"? Or even new companies making ammo or components?
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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #301 on: February 04, 2013, 08:54:42 AM »
So are we calling the Preacher/Owens blurb plausible or busted?  =D
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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #302 on: February 04, 2013, 09:59:30 AM »
On the 6-9 months, I read that as for primers only, and only because they are being prioritized for production ammo. It would stand to reason (given that the panic ammo buying slows down), that production ammo will be readily available again well before primers for reloading are.
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AJ Dual

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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #303 on: February 04, 2013, 10:18:29 AM »
If ammo (or at least the most desirable ammo) remains unobtainable for 9 months, won't that make an indelible impression in the mind of gun owners? Won't demand be higher for the next 10 or 20 years (or more?), as private stockpiles grow larger and more common? Could that justify at least some "gearing up"? Or even new companies making ammo or components?

You're right, that is a factor, however it's still a finite factor.

- Eventually, everyone would reach their comfort level for ammo on hand, and the run will end.

- Such decisions are just as emotionally based as logically based. When the hoarding/stockpiling by the consumers ends will matter as much on perception, news, politics, as it does on the actual ammo availability if not more, and the run on ammo will end.

- Then there's the economic ability of people to stockpile. Such decisions for most people aren't simply made by how much they want, but how much they can afford. And the stockpiling also ends that way too, and the run will end.

So it's kind of a complex issue with multiple factors affecting when the ammo run will burn itself out. And in general, the more factors that are acting to end it, the sooner it will happen.

And the other issue is that in the face of that, the one single way a manufacturer could make a dent in the above factors is cost. They'd have to significantly undercut the competition, so that the price to the end-user through all the distribution channel markups was still so significant it could affect all of those above decision factors.

Unfortunately, the tooling and startup costs to control ammo production from end-to-end, stamping brass/steel, producing primer cups, bullets, double-base nitro powders, all the hazmat issues dealing with lead styphnate or similar lead-based explosives, or the "green" diazodinitrophenol primer compounds, are all quite high. Much of the ammo manufacture as noted really leverages just a few makers of these components and just assemble them. The entry barriers were such that many of these plants and machines date back to WWII when things were so dire that obviously ANY "entry barriers" or costs were worth it.

So in essence it's a huge gamble that you could amortize these massive costs over the next 20 years, when the economy could wipe out discretionary shooter spending, legislation could wipe out the private market, or some unforeseen shooting product that replaces metallic cartridges could all wipe out your investment, and your ability to pay back the financing. Assuming some bank or venture capital group would look at your business plan and the uncertainties and not laugh you out of the loan office.

And the people who have enough cash on hand to tool up an entire ammo plant without any loans or financing, they throw their money at things which are much more lucrative and have better understood risk/reward ratios.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #304 on: February 04, 2013, 01:39:13 PM »
I see your point.

Just to be clear, though, I wasn't talking about a run. I think the demand for ammo will simply be higher for the next few decades. People who previously did not keep any ammo set aside will start doing so. People who already stockpiled, will increase their usual level. People who used to buy ammo before they went shooting will now buy ammo the day after, and possibly shoot more often, since the ammo is already on hand. And aren't we already seeing more new shooters, and the same increase in the popularity of shooting that followed previous gun control efforts?
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AJ Dual

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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #305 on: February 04, 2013, 01:53:43 PM »
Eh...

I definitely agree that whatever portion of the panic buy that's new shooters is a good thing.

However, I think like many hobbies only a certain percentage of them will actually wind up shooting on a regular basis, or on a high volume basis.  Even of all of us here who are all presumably shooters or gun owners, only a portion of us, maybe a dozen of us, are shooting so much they're going through cases of rounds per year, either purchased or reloaded.

And if people were really going to "learn their lesson" this time and start stockpiling, I kind of think they'd have done so in the '08 panic, the 9/11 panic, the Y2k panic, the wind-up to the '94 AWB...

Human nature isn't going to change. Most people will be reactionary.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #306 on: February 04, 2013, 02:04:33 PM »
Eh...

I definitely agree that whatever portion of the panic buy that's new shooters is a good thing.

However, I think like many hobbies only a certain percentage of them will actually wind up shooting on a regular basis, or on a high volume basis.  Even of all of us here who are all presumably shooters or gun owners, only a portion of us, maybe a dozen of us, are shooting so much they're going through cases of rounds per year, either purchased or reloaded.

And if people were really going to "learn their lesson" this time and start stockpiling, I kind of think they'd have done so in the '08 panic, the 9/11 panic, the Y2k panic, the wind-up to the '94 AWB...

Human nature isn't going to change. Most people will be reactionary.

Dude, that's more frequently than every 5 years.  94, 99, 01, 04 (AWB sunset and the bells of freedom, magpul rises!), 08, 13.

Fisty, there's an ammo shortage and crisis every 5 years.  Practically guaranteed.  Sounds ripe for a new ammo company to come out and start making tractor-trailers full of .223 and 9mm, and only those calibers.  They'll be more popular than Obama's Stash in Chicago.
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lee n. field

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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #307 on: February 04, 2013, 02:49:36 PM »
I expect I'll be shooting a lot more .22 than normal.
......if you can find any.....

I have 8 or 9K of .22LR.  I can afford to blow off a few rounds every now and then.
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drewtam

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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #308 on: February 04, 2013, 03:21:30 PM »
A business plan with a 10-20 year ROI is DOA. 5-6yrs, max.

At least that is the environment in this corporation. Maybe these smaller industries are more comfortable with thinner margins and longer returns. If I wrote up an engineering/business proposal with a 20yr ROI, my supervisors would literally laugh at it.

A 5yr return is marginally acceptable, and better have fringe benefits (e.g. trying out some state of the art tech, reduces some other product's cost, promotes the brand, etc).

A 3yr business plan would catch a lot of interest and if successful, gain promotions.

Some people, in my recent experience, have successfully implemented 1yr ROI plans.
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Gewehr98

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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #309 on: February 04, 2013, 03:47:01 PM »
Type 6 FFLs for making ammunition are also a royal pain in the posterior.  Then you get into the state and local requirements for business and fire safety...

I know from researching the prospect myself - I make batches of damned scarce 7.62x45 VZ-52 and 6.5x53R Dutch Mannlicher brass, and handload it into ammo that often disappears to friends needing to feed their orphaned rifles.  I wanted to just sell the brass, and eventually completed rounds, but discovered I needed a Type 6 FFL just for that!   

You commit to getting your Type 6 FFL approved, local and state sign-off, insurance, tooling, find a supplier of components (good luck with that now...), it won't be a quick thing at all. 

You're in it for the long haul, and not just to amortize the money and ass-pain you went through just to get up and running.

The best example I can give of somebody's reloading hobby going professional is Space Coast Bullets in Melbourne, FL.  They're about as small a store as one can physically have, and still maintain a decent market presence.  Their bread and butter is casting bullets for handloaders, and using a portion of those cast bullets loaded into once-fired brass.  They dabbled in automating big Dillon progressive presses, until they discovered they don't lend themselves to being motor-driven without a lot of TLC.  So their learning curve got more expensive as they bought purpose-made loading equipment.   
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #310 on: February 04, 2013, 04:56:00 PM »
Eh...

I definitely agree that whatever portion of the panic buy that's new shooters is a good thing.

However, I think like many hobbies only a certain percentage of them will actually wind up shooting on a regular basis, or on a high volume basis.  Even of all of us here who are all presumably shooters or gun owners, only a portion of us, maybe a dozen of us, are shooting so much they're going through cases of rounds per year, either purchased or reloaded.

And if people were really going to "learn their lesson" this time and start stockpiling, I kind of think they'd have done so in the '08 panic, the 9/11 panic, the Y2k panic, the wind-up to the '94 AWB...

Human nature isn't going to change. Most people will be reactionary.

Regarding the ammo panic every few years, isn't this ammo crunch much more severe than we've seen? I seem to recall a lot of people being shocked at the dearth of. 22 LR, among other things.

Also, I'm just suggesting that a lot of people will buy more ammo, and probably shoot more often. It won't take every gun owner shooting a case of ammo every year to increase the demand from what it was before Sandy Hook.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 10:09:16 PM by fistful »
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #311 on: February 04, 2013, 11:24:21 PM »
Just to tease this out a bit more:

If this situation goes on much longer, does anyone expect to hear about soldiers or police selling .gov ammo supplies? They could sell it to honest gun owners by claiming it was their own hoard, but they needed money.
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SteveS

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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #312 on: February 05, 2013, 10:03:21 AM »
Just to tease this out a bit more:

If this situation goes on much longer, does anyone expect to hear about soldiers or police selling .gov ammo supplies? They could sell it to honest gun owners by claiming it was their own hoard, but they needed money.

That would be nice, but I don't hear about police selling off excess ammo.  I have seen dealers selling police trade ins, but never ammo.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #313 on: February 05, 2013, 10:09:27 AM »
Just to tease this out a bit more:

If this situation goes on much longer, does anyone expect to hear about soldiers or police selling .gov ammo supplies? They could sell it to honest gun owners by claiming it was their own hoard, but they needed money.

I would LMFAO if some of those same 1.4 billion DHS rounds somehow got sold on the black/grey market by fed agents stealing from government supplies.  That would just be absolutely hilarious.
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drewtam

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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #314 on: February 05, 2013, 11:39:50 AM »
I would LMFAO if some of those same 1.4 billion DHS rounds somehow got sold on the black/grey market by fed agents stealing from government supplies.  That would just be absolutely hilarious.

Wait all the hullabaloo about the DHS buying ammo is for about ~1.4B rounds?

According to previous in the thread
Quote
"All plants are producing as much ammo as possible w/ of 1 BILLION rounds produced weekly."

So all they got is 2 weeks worth of production?
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #315 on: February 05, 2013, 11:53:17 AM »
That would be nice, but I don't hear about police selling off excess ammo.  I have seen dealers selling police trade ins, but never ammo.

I'm talking about pilfered ammo.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #316 on: February 05, 2013, 11:58:08 AM »
Wait all the hullabaloo about the DHS buying ammo is for about ~1.4B rounds?

According to previous in the thread
So all they got is 2 weeks worth of production?

A) that would be a lot.
B) that billion per week is probably all types of ammo, not all .40 hollow-point, which is what DHS is said to be hoarding. So a lot more than 2 weeks, one would imagine.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #317 on: February 05, 2013, 12:00:39 PM »
Wait all the hullabaloo about the DHS buying ammo is for about ~1.4B rounds?

According to previous in the thread
So all they got is 2 weeks worth of production?

IIRC, it comes out to about 20,000 rounds per DHS employee.  That includes DHS janitors, IT nerds, HR clerks, TSA junkgrabbers and accountants.  I don't know what ratio of DHS employees are sworn/badged versus not.

2 weeks of the nation's full ammo production capability is a hell of a lot of ammo.
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cordex

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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #318 on: February 05, 2013, 01:02:59 PM »
IIRC, it comes out to about 20,000 rounds per DHS employee.  That includes DHS janitors, IT nerds, HR clerks, TSA junkgrabbers and accountants.  I don't know what ratio of DHS employees are sworn/badged versus not.
I thought DHS was brokering a multi-agency ammo deal to get better pricing.  Did I make that up or did I read it somewhere?

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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #319 on: February 05, 2013, 02:18:12 PM »
I thought DHS was brokering a multi-agency ammo deal to get better pricing.  Did I make that up or did I read it somewhere?

Pfft. Don't let common sense get in the way of a good conspiracy. 
(although, given the way this administration thinks, buying up ammo supplies to get it "off the streets" wouldn't surprise me.....cash for boolits, anyone?) [tinfoil]
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AJ Dual

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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #320 on: February 05, 2013, 05:13:17 PM »
I thought DHS was brokering a multi-agency ammo deal to get better pricing.  Did I make that up or did I read it somewhere?

Something like that.

And I've seen multiple people break down the round count by all the various sworn armed fed.gov types that went through FLETC. When you take buying in bulk for the discount, the 2k rounds per year or whatever for their training/refreshers/qualifications, and then add some more onto the top of your usual .gov "use it or lose it" baseline budgeting style, it's not terribly outrageous.

Also, as noted, that much .40 S&W ammo... well it's still only pistol ammo.

If they were buying up that much 5.56, or perhaps double that amount, I'd be much more willing to get all  [tinfoil] about it. Otherwise, to me it's "meh" and more about the typical endless waste/expansion of .gov than it is some imminent sign of JBT-ery on the horizon.

For all I know, it might be doing the shooting community some good. If it weren't for these big runs of .40 ammo, the usual refocusing on 9mm and .223/5.56 during the ammo crunch might mean .40 went unobtanium the way .380 did during the '08 panic, because it's the same dies and lines as 9mm and they're just shortened down by 1.5mm or whatever...  The .40 machines might have been more economically attractive to take offline, or not staff, or draw brass for or whatever if the .gov hadn't been boosting the round's economy of scale.

Just to tease this out a bit more:

If this situation goes on much longer, does anyone expect to hear about soldiers or police selling .gov ammo supplies? They could sell it to honest gun owners by claiming it was their own hoard, but they needed money.

I see some potential for this. The current or ex-.mil guys will have to chime in, but it seems to me that other than by lot no. ammo isn't all that traceable, and I know that for some of the Federal and Winchester products we do get some of the exact same packaging as the .mil does too.

And there's those range situations where the unit is encouraged to "burn it up" otherwise they have to hump it back to base, or do more accounting for the ammo. Although I'm not sure how much they have to account for spent brass. I'd guess that counting spent brass is not done as carefully as live rounds, and there's circumstances where it's not practical at all.  I'd guess that's the case for situations like training in the field etc.

It seems stolen .mil ammo is almost a given, maybe always going on, seeing as how many "Aimpoint/ACOG stings" I see going on in various gun boards almost constantly. Something not SN'ed and not as traceable albeit not as pricey or compact, would be at least equally appealing. I'm sure AR/M4 mags also leave the .mil's stocks on a regular basis, since they're already considered semi-disposable.

From fed.gov agents? Not so much. I could see a box of ammo here or there as a favor to a family member or a friend in a slightly extended version of stealing pens/paperclips from the supply closet, but on a larger case-lot scale, unlikely.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 05:26:44 PM by AJ Dual »
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lee n. field

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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #321 on: February 05, 2013, 07:40:23 PM »
Quote
Otherwise, to me it's "meh" and more about the typical endless waste/expansion of .gov than it is some imminent sign of JBT-ery on the horizon.

To judge incipient JBTery, you'd want to be looking at other things.  Personnel -- hires, moves.  Is anyone training an unusual number of prison guards?  Are they buying supplies, moving supplies?  Vehicles and uniforms?  More gun purchases to go with the ammo purchases?  (Uhhh, well, uhhh, seems we did just have a DHS purchase of "personal defense rifles".) 

The kinds of information we don't have easy access to, would tell the tale.

Quote
signs of a new run on gun purchases

Had a heck of a time today, finding a vendor who had (at least claimed to have) as pedestrian and obscure an item as 4 hole Lee turrets in stock.
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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #322 on: February 05, 2013, 09:54:21 PM »
Ouch!

That doesn't bode well for my plan to secure more Lyman bullet moulds...   =|
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lee n. field

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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #323 on: February 05, 2013, 10:11:12 PM »
Natchezz Shooter Supply actually claimed to have them on hand, and seemed to list a lot of what I looked at as on hand.  But, ship in at least two weeks, "expect to receive 2/25".  (OK, as I have not more bullets until it's warm enough to cast.)

  Hopefully they're not playing weird games.
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41magsnub

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Re: Any signs of a new run on gun purchases yet?
« Reply #324 on: February 08, 2013, 11:00:12 AM »
Midway had an expected date of yesterday to get CCI mini-mags back in stock.  Over the day it changed to overdue.  Today it changed to February 2014  =|