Europe is doomed

[makattak]

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/05/06/war-swiss-government-debate-army-needs-able-fend-attack/

GENEVA (AP) — Switzerland's army should stop preparing for a foreign attack and concentrate on security operations inside the country, according to a leaked government discussion paper published online Thursday.

The proposal, which also includes cutting funds for new weapons systems and reducing the size of the army, was obtained by Swiss weekly Weltwoche and published on its website.

A Defense Ministry spokesman confirmed that the document was produced by defense officials for discussion at a regular government meeting Friday, but declined to comment further.

"This paper was leaked to the media, and we don't comment on leaks," Sebastian Hueber told The Association Press.

The proposal claims that "the core purpose of the army isn't the ability to conduct a war."

Instead, the paper suggests that the army should do more to provide security inside Switzerland — such as during large events like the 2008 European football championship — assist in humanitarian operations abroad and police Swiss airspace.

If other European countries ask for assistance, the army should consider taking part in patrols to secure the continent's externals borders with drones and other aircraft, it said.

Switzerland hasn't taken part in a foreign war since 1815, but has one of Europe's largest armies in part because of long-standing fear of foreign invasion after the neutral nation was surrounded by fascist armies during World War II.

All men in this nation of just under 8 million are required to undergo army training from the age of 19 and must perform regular reserve duty until at least the age of 30. The army has a small number of professional soldiers, but many senior officers are reservists, and until recently every soldier was required to have a rifle at home in case of foreign attack.

The last country in Europe that understood "Si vis pacem, para bellum" has started thinking they don't need to be able to defend themselves.

Enjoy becoming part of the motherland, Europe.

[Balog]

Hey, why should they bother securing themselves when we do it for them?

[HankB]

I've never understood the mindset that equates virtue with vulnerability . . . 

[Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas]

I think you're reading too much into this. My take on it is that Switzerland wants to gainfully employ their army - and since neighboring countries don't want to invade them any more than Canada wants to invade the US, they don't see much point in focusing on that alone. I guess the recession is affecting Swiss cashflow too, so they're looking for ways to save money. Using their army for police and other duties would do that... and I'm guessing that other European nations asking them for help would provide cash for doing so?

[longeyes]

Provide security inside Switzerland?  I thought they had police to do that on a local level.  Sounds as if they plan to use the military to suppress the populace to me.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Is there any country in Europe that can really defend itself?

[HankB]

I guess the recession is affecting Swiss cashflow too, so they're looking for ways to save money

More than the worldwide recession, I'd venture that the gnomes of Zurich have seen deposits shrink as the famous Swiss banking secrecy laws have been weakened.

Using their army for police and other duties would do that... and I'm guessing that other European nations asking them for help would provide cash for doing so? 

More likely we would be called on to bankroll things. 

[coppertales]

It is the Swiss liberals that don't like all those citizen soldiers having battle rifles in their homes........chris3

[MicroBalrog]

Who is going to invade Switzerland? What's the point of having a massive ground force when nobody is going to invade you? It's about as sensible it would be for a private individual to duct-tape a few layers of trauma plate to his body.

[roo_ster]

Who is going to invade Switzerland? What's the point of having a massive ground force when nobody is going to invade you? It's about as sensible it would be for a private individual to duct-tape a few layers of trauma plate to his body.

Perzactly!

Who is going to run up & mess with a dude who has trauma plates duct-taped to his torso?  Who's going to invade a mountainous country which has bridges/passes ready to be blocked and can muster a million+ infantrymen in a week or so.

Keep yourself strong enough, might never have to use it.

There is nothing wrong with letting possible foes think you're a little unstable and have an itchy trigger finger.

[MicroBalrog]

Here's the thing:

TRauma plates duct-taped to your body is mighty uncomfortable. The reason (most) people don't do it is because you're not likely to get shot at in your daily life, and the cost and discomfort is not worth it.

Swiss taxpayers have looked and seen that their nation is not likely to be invaded given the specifics of their security situation, and decided to tone it down. There's nothing wrong with defense cuts based on changes in your nation's security situation. Just like with other government programs, the answer isn't always MORE MONEY.

[longeyes]

Trust me, Switzerland IS being invaded.  On every front.

[Nick1911]

Trust me, Switzerland IS being invaded.  On every front.

Mmm... I'm going to call out the vague platitude.  I'm not seeing it.

How are they being invaded?  On which specific fronts, and in what specific ways?

[French G.]

Is there any country in Europe that can really defend itself?

France. I know we get our lulz at their expense, but post WWII they blew off NATO and went their own way. Decent navy, their own nukes, I figure they can fix things militarily. Only problem is that they are losing to their own socialism and the second invasion of the moors which find the socialist benefits handy but don't care much to assimilate. Nothing sounds familiar there...

[Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas]

France. I know we get our lulz at their expense, but post WWII they blew off NATO and went their own way. Decent navy, their own nukes, I figure they can fix things militarily. Only problem is that they are losing to their own socialism and the second invasion of the moors which find the socialist benefits handy but don't care much to assimilate. Nothing sounds familiar there...

Odd thing is, the French have an army that's just about the same size as the UK.

I've heard that French MREs are masterpieces, BTW.

[lupinus]

France. I know we get our lulz at their expense, but post WWII they blew off NATO and went their own way. Decent navy, their own nukes, I figure they can fix things militarily. Only problem is that they are losing to their own socialism and the second invasion of the moors which find the socialist benefits handy but don't care much to assimilate. Nothing sounds familiar there...

Yeah.

But it's still mostly staffed by French dudes 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Didn't the French hand over their nuclear launch codes to the UN?

And haven't the French had a world of trouble getting their one and only aircraft carrier into service?

[longeyes]

Switzerland has been invaded by leftist ideas and alien cultural influences.  Maybe you've noticed changes in Swiss banking secrecy?  Or "evolving" ideas there about gun ownership?  It is no longer an impregnable island of sanity in uncertain continent.

[Sergeant Bob]

Switzerland hasn't taken part in a foreign war since 1815, but has one of Europe's largest armies in part because of long-standing fear of foreign invasion after the neutral nation was surrounded by fascist armies during World War II.

Why would they need an army? Isn't their motto, "If ya can't beat them, finance them?

[Cromlech]

Is there any country in Europe that can really defend itself?

We in Britain are pretty lucky to be on an island really, it's helped in the past. Though of course we have had allies helping us when we have been threatened.

[roo_ster]

France. I know we get our lulz at their expense, but post WWII they blew off NATO and went their own way. Decent navy, their own nukes, I figure they can fix things militarily. Only problem is that they are losing to their own socialism and the second invasion of the moors which find the socialist benefits handy but don't care much to assimilate. Nothing sounds familiar there...

Yep, they have nukes and a decent combined-arms capability.  The UK, too.

So, yes, they can defend themselves against most conceivable threats.

But nobody in Europe has the ability to project force for squat.  I remember the Balkans were inaccessible by the Euros(0).  It required American airlift to start the operation and an American mech division to get to the Yugo border and build the roads & bridges all the mother-loving way through Bosnia so there could be overland supply.  Reminiscent of how so many roads were built through history: out of military necessity.


(0)  Oh, they could have made some C130 flights into Sarajevo, but they had no ability to hold it and the meager euro airlift capability could not have sustained a euro presence if the Serbs had wanted to squash them.

[S. Williamson]

I wasn't going to post, but I can't help it.  Every time I see this thread it reminds me of a scene from Futurama: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USHHQRodF88 

[Jocassee]

Odd thing is, the French have an army that's just about the same size as the UK.

I've heard that French MREs are masterpieces, BTW.

Some of my white African homeboys chanced upon French MREs in N. Cameroon. I'd lay money they're the only country with roast duck MREs.

[S. Williamson]

http://www.mreinfo.com/international/france/french-rcir.html

 

I'll take USGI Chili Mac over most of that. 

[taurusowner]

http://www.mreinfo.com/international/france/french-rcir.html

 

I'll take USGI Chili Mac over most of that. 

Indeed.  Those RCIR seem to individually have more in them than an MRE, but it all sounds pretty gross.  Not to mention that mini-stove contraption looks like a much bigger hassle than water activated heaters.