More border thoughts

[grampster]

Border and Port Security. One more thing to be thoughtful about before choosing who to cast your vote for in the primaries and then in November.

 The question, my friends, is NOT about the desire of many to come to America. Americans have alway welcomed immigrants. Immigration and our Constitutional Republic, a society of laws, not men, has made us the greatest nation on earth, ever. But immigrants in the past have mostly desired to assimilate,  become Americans and contribute to our greatness and our unique culture. They did not make the demands that are being made today by those who have broken into our homes, use our medicine, come to our schools, spend our treasure, trample our laws and otherwise abuse our charity and our good will, to say nothing about a civilized progressive culture being stultified by a regressive culture.
 
Are we perfect? By no means. But show me another nation of people who have constantly, generation after generation, corrected the mistakes of the past and became better for it as well as improving the lot of others along the way. Our patience in this matter has been measured and has been restrained for decades.

Are all illegals bad people? By no means. It takes brave motivated folks to walk the path that many of them have walked. Changes need to be made to deal with today's reality. It starts by securing our borders and ports. Then we can have a discussion about how to move forward with the absorbtion and Americanizing of immigrants.

Many misguided people among us have twisted and obfuscated the border security and port security discussion with accusations of racism and other reactionary terms. Our Attorney General, has called the Arizona law racist, unconstitutional and wrong. Yesterday he admitted in front of a congressional committee that he HAS NOT read the Arizona law. Imagine that. Apparently our President has not read it either as he has made the same biased, incorrect conclusions and comments as his Attorney General. Speaker Pelosi said befoe passing the Health Monster that it needed to get passed so we could find out what was in it. It seems that those we entrust to see to their Constitutional duties that they have taken an oath about, are woefully inadequate for the job and prove it nearly every day.

There is ignorance and arrogance on both sides of the aisle in DC. It's time to elect patriots rather than buffoons and self serving sociopaths and sycophants. Instead of disabusing the people of Arizona for taking a stand and doing what the federal government is Constitutionaly required to, and fails to do, our elected officials should do their job and solve the problem. We can rebuild Europe, collapse the Russian Empire, bail out Greece inter alia, but we can't secure our borders and ports at home? Are we dumb to believe this?  Must be!!

I was always taught that one can't read a book by it's cover. I've read the book on the clowns we have elected. It's a lousy book and we need to take it back and get another.

We Americans are the most giving, welcoming, charitable, accepting people on the face of the earth. We have shed our blood and shared our treasure on behalf of the whole world. I'm tired of being maligned by our politicians, the media, our intellectuals and literati who tell us we are greedy, racist and any other vituperative and vindictive adjective that they can think of using their narrow, nasty little minds. They should know better. Listen to what they say and then watch what they do. Usually, what they do is not what they say.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Would you consider combining new border security with a new Ellis Island style immigration gateway on our southern border?

[taurusowner]

How would you compare the attitudes of people who immigrated through Ellis Island about becoming American vs the attitudes of illegals today.  I'll just come out and say it: if you don't change your heart and truly think of yourself no longer as a citizen of your former nation but instead a new American, I don't think you should be here.  Assimilate or GTFO.

[longeyes]

Any "reform" that ignores 25 million illegals and their children already here is empty nonsense.  And legalizing them isn't the answer, not if you want to preserve any vestige of the Founders' vision after "family reunification" imports ANOTHER 50 million-plus.

The truth is too many Americans, even well-meaning ones, do not wish to face the magnitude and malignancy of what we have already wrought.  This problem is NOT going to be solved by tea and sympathy, by pathways to citizenship.  We are headed toward becoming a Third World nation governed by feudal lords in government cubicles.  Either we are okay with that or we are not; if we are not we are going to have to decide, as the people of the generation of our Founding Fathers had to, what we are really willing to do to keep this Republic viable.

[longeyes]

The other day Michael Medved, who claims to be a conservative, opined that most immigrants came here for one reason: to better their economic lot, not for freedom.  I guess the brilliant Medved forgot what it was that made this nation a better alternative: a series of social and political values that empowered the individual through law and ordered liberty, through economic opportunity grounded on righteous behavior and the ability of citizens to trust one another.

If we refuse to confront what it is that makes this nation historically different and superior, the game is over, and right now I don't see much intelligent or honest discussion of this in the country at large, just a lot of propagandizing by people with (usually) leftist agendas.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

How would you compare the attitudes of people who immigrated through Ellis Island about becoming American vs the attitudes of illegals today.  I'll just come out and say it: if you don't change your heart and truly think of yourself no longer as a citizen of your former nation but instead a new American, I don't think you should be here.  Assimilate or GTFO.

Dood, there are giant shamrocks painted on the streets in parts of New York and Boston.  Should all those Irish assimilate or GTFO?

There are lots of inhabitants in various Chinatown neighborhoods that can't form a coherent sentence in English.  Should they assimilate or GTFO?

Can we honestly say that inner city minority blacks have assimilated to mainstream American values?  

 

I'm not against assimilation, so don't get me wrong here.  But I notice a lot of people use the assimilation angle to issue sweeping "broad brush" condemnations of entire populations, often without much reason or sense.  

I've said before and I'll say it again here, the majority of the illegal Mexican immigrants I know are more American than their natural-born peers at the same economic levels.  The left is trying to turn hispanics against traditional America by using class (ethnic?) warfare as a wedge, but I'd wager that left to their own devices most hispanic immigrants would naturally tend more towards cultural conservatism and basic American ideals.  They may choose to retain an affinity for Mexico or wherever, but that doesn't mean they can't be good American citizens.

Anyway, my main point would be that many of the "off-the-boat" immigrants that came through Ellis Island didn't assimilate to any great degree.  They tended to congregate in neighborhoods with similar ethnic identities and didn't change their culture or ideals much at all.  It was primarily the second gen of immigrant families that began assimilating, blending their parents' culture with American culture.

[alex_trebek]

I define assimilation as viewing yourself as an American, and not identifying with you previous country.

I would say accepting American values, but I think that is too slippery a slope (i.e. Which values must people accept?). Basically I am happy if immigrants simply ally themselves to America, and act in Americas best interest.

I don't even care if they don't speak English, unless it becomes the official language.

[S. Williamson]

Dood, there are giant shamrocks painted on the streets in parts of New York and Boston.  Should all those Irish assimilate or GTFO?

There are lots of inhabitants in various Chinatown neighborhoods that can't form a coherent sentence in English.  Should they assimilate or GTFO?

Can we honestly say that inner city minority blacks have assimilated to mainstream American values?  

The difference lies not in neighborhoods, as listed above, but in entire towns and cities.

I have no problem with "paying homage to the Old Country" or the like.  When intentions are malicious, however, I do have a problem.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

The difference lies not in neighborhoods, as listed above, but in entire towns and cities.

I have no problem with "paying homage to the Old Country" or the like.  When intentions are malicious, however, I do have a problem.

Can you be more specific?  I'm not seeing much of a difference other than the OMGness.

[RocketMan]

Can you be more specific?  I'm not seeing much of a difference other than the OMGness.

I'll do it for him.  The Aztlan, Reconquista, La Raza, and MEChA.

[lupinus]

Dood, there are giant shamrocks painted on the streets in parts of New York and Boston.  Should all those Irish assimilate or GTFO?

I have yet to see the Irish, Italians, or Chinese claim part of America is their own and want re/conquest.

Paying homage to the old country is one thing. Even identifying yourself as *-American can be one thing. Hell, peacefully living in America and identifying with your old home is even one thing.

Bleeding your new home dry? Coming here illegally? Nah. No sir.

[taurusowner]

Sure there are a lot of Irish, Italians, and even Asians who still love their old country.  But I don't see many of them claiming to hate America.  I don't see many Irish who view the American flag as an affront to Ireland.  I don't see many Italians who want to annex piece of the US and claim them as Italian provinces.  Not to mention most of the people in Boston and NY are here legally.

[grampster]

Would you consider combining new border security with a new Ellis Island style immigration gateway on our southern border?

Yes.  A.  The border has to be secured first.  B. There would by necessity have to be more than one Ellis Island.  We need a workable, progressive immigration policy.  Borders and ports need to be secured first!!

To me, assimilation is becoming an American and embracing our country and our culture even as the immigrants add to the culture.  As Teddy Roosevelt said, "There is only room for one flag and one language."  What is wrong with that notion?  The first generation will always struggle with language and culture as well as stay close to each other.  Many of the neighborhoods consisting of one breed of cat have turned over many times.  In my home town, in my lifetime, my old neighbor hood went from Italian, to Dutch, to southern blacks, to Mexican to a melting pot of hispanics from Central America.

 My grandmother never was able to speak good English.  My mother and my aunt and my uncle spoke English, not Lithuanian because my grandmother insisted they become Americans, not Lithuanian Americans.  The idea of the multicultural hyphenated American is anethema to me and it is dividing our country.  It is not inclusive.  It is divisive and pits us against each other.  Those who cant see that are worse than stupid.  They are shitting in their own bed. 

The idea is that the first generation will demand that their children embrace America first, but nothing wrong with remembering the past.  But it is the past.  For most immigrants, they left behind what they did because it was something they wished to leave behind.  Why else come here.  If it's for the money to send home, to make demands that America become what they left behind, and cater to them, then I say GTFO.

I've more to say on the subjetc, but I'll shut up for awhile.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

good points  heres on i'll toss out  a side effect to being illegal is that it makes assimilation much more difficult and less likely.  hard to mingle as a fugitive. it requires a desire and then opportunity. neither is likely when you neeed to hide from la migra

[dm1333]

The other day Michael Medved, who claims to be a conservative, opined that most immigrants came here for one reason: to better their economic lot, not for freedom.

He never talked to my grandfather, who came here in 1919, from Russia.

Anyway, my main point would be that many of the "off-the-boat" immigrants that came through Ellis Island didn't assimilate to any great degree. 

I grew up less than 60 miles from NYC.  The neighborhood I grew up in had lots of Puerto Ricans, Koreans and whites.  There are plenty of Greek and Russian Orthodox people where I grew up.  To say that these groups didn't assimilate makes me think you don't live anywhere near NY, NJ, or the New England states. 

My father knew very little Russian and I know even less because my grandparents refused to speak any other language than English.  Most of my friends and neighbors had the same experience as me.  I can't really say that for a lot of the Hispanics I know.

[longeyes]

Come to Southern California, the illegal alien capitol of America, and you will quickly realize that few if any are hiding from "la migra."  That is another canard as bromidic as "living in the shadows."  The only shadows I see are the shadows over the wallets of the American taxpayers subsidizing this folly.

[MechAg94]

Come to Southern California, the illegal alien capitol of America, and you will quickly realize that few if any are hiding from "la migra."  That is another canard as bromidic as "living in the shadows."  The only shadows I see are the shadows over the wallets of the American taxpayers subsidizing this folly.

I think it is the subsidizing that bothers a lot of people.  That and the frustration that we apparently have these immigration laws that we are not enforcing which is a just bad govt IMO. 

I would like to make it much easier or at least less bureaucratic to work here legally, but I think enforcement has to come first.

[longeyes]

I would like to make it much easier or at least less bureaucratic to work here legally, but I think enforcement has to come first.

The only real job growth in America is "Hispanics," mostly illegals, and they are rapidly displacing what's left of the non-Hispanic blue collar sector.  Where are all the ousted American citizens supposed to find employment?  Temporary work programs, in selected fields (agriculture, e.g.), could be argued for, but we long, long ago exceeded any reasonable numbers in terms of "needed" manual workers.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

I'm still seeing an awful lot of those broad brush condemnations...

 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

I think it is the subsidizing that bothers a lot of people.  That and the frustration that we apparently have these immigration laws that we are not enforcing which is a just bad govt IMO.  

I would like to make it much easier or at least less bureaucratic to work here legally, but I think enforcement has to come first.

The enforcement has to happen at the same time as the reforms to legal entry.  
The two are synergystic and neither would be terribly effective on their own.

Right now our situation is carrot and stick, and exactly backwards.  We make it nigh impossible to enter legally, and painfully easy to come illegally.  You can't come through a border crossing station, but you can easily trespass across some poor landowners private property.  It should be no wonder why people break the law and hop the border.

Enforcing the border is great, it fixes the stick part of the problem, but it leaves out the carrot.  On it's own, border enforcement will never be really effective.  Unless there's a reasonable legal alternative, desperate people will still risk the stick.  Desperate and enterprising people will find/make a way to cross the border illegally.  Give them a real legal alternative and they'll take that instead.

I'd further the solution by eliminating any sort of public handouts to immigrants.  If you choose to come here, it should be because you intend to earn your keep.

[White Horseradish]

my grandparents refused to speak any other language than English. 

That's a little on the silly side. Speaking a second language is in no way incompatible with being an American. My kids switch from Russian to English depending on the company with no problem and have been doing it since they learned to talk.

I have yet to see the Irish, Italians, or Chinese claim part of America is their own and want re/conquest.

This gives me an idea. I should start a movement to "reconquer" Alaska. I already have a motto - "Catherine was wrong!" and an anthem. Maybe I can get some money for this... :)

[MechAg94]

The enforcement has to happen at the same time as the reforms to legal entry.  
The two are synergystic and neither would be terribly effective on their own.

Right now our situation is carrot and stick, and exactly backwards.  We make it nigh impossible to enter legally, and painfully easy to come illegally.  You can't come through a border crossing station, but you can easily trespass across some poor landowners private property.  It should be no wonder why people break the law and hop the border.

Enforcing the border is great, it fixes the stick part of the problem, but it leaves out the carrot.  On it's own, border enforcement will never be really effective.  Unless there's a reasonable legal alternative, desperate people will still risk the stick.  Desperate and enterprising people will find/make a way to cross the border illegally.  Give them a real legal alternative and they'll take that instead.

I'd further the solution by eliminating any sort of public handouts to immigrants.  If you choose to come here, it should be because you intend to earn your keep.

I would argue that we are not using a carrot and stick approach.  We are only using a carrot approach.  People don't seem to want us to use the stick at all.

[MechAg94]

I happen to be listening to Fox News this evening and Gretta has this human rights activist talking about Arizona.  The stupid thing to me is that she is trying to pin him down on what exactly he doesn't like about Arizona's laws and he can't get specific.  He keeps saying they are concerned about potentials and how the law might be used.  My thought is that liberals never seem to worry about those things with laws they like.  No one would ever overstep the original intent of their laws. 

[Perd Hapley]

This gives me an idea. I should start a movement to "reconquer" Alaska. I already have a motto - "Catherine was wrong!" and an anthem. Maybe I can get some money for this... :)

Marvelous. You must, of course, translate.

Or at least explain why a fish busts through a brick wall. 

[longeyes]

I'm still seeing an awful lot of those broad brush condemnations...

If that's directed at my statements you'll have to do a lot better than that.  I'm citing statistics (employment numbers) you can verify for yourself.  If there is anything "broadbrush" it is the incontrovertible fact that we have a massive illegal invasion on our hands that is going largely untouched by our own government.