Author Topic: Propylene glycol (RV antifreeze)  (Read 13843 times)

zahc

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Propylene glycol (RV antifreeze)
« on: September 19, 2011, 07:13:07 PM »
I made a heat exchanger out of copper pipe and froze the whole thing into a block of ice in my freezer. The idea was that I could run propylene glycol through it, and route the hoses out of the freezer and into a heat exchanger in my beer fermentation chamber.

It was a great idea, but it turns out the RV antifreeze I bought freezes solid inside the thing. The jug says "protection to -50F!" so I figured I was surely safe at the what, 10F in my freezer. Not so apparently. This confuses me. Car antifreeze surely doesn't freeze that easily. Is RV antifreeze that much worse than car antifreeze? Is there anything else I could use? I didn't want to use car antifreeze because of the whole kidney failure thing. Would it help to dilute it with methanol or something?
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lupinus

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Re: Propylene glycol (RV antifreeze)
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2011, 07:27:50 PM »
How big is the system?

Maybe you could fill the system with high proof grain alcohol (Everclear or similar?)

Then you can use hooch to cool your hooch.
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Scout26

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Re: Propylene glycol (RV antifreeze)
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2011, 09:02:05 PM »
Did you dilute it with water? 

Isn't that how it works, a mix of antifreeze and water protects to -50F?
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zxcvbob

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Re: Propylene glycol (RV antifreeze)
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2011, 09:07:01 PM »
Did you dilute it with water?  

Isn't that how it works, a mix of antifreeze and water protects to -50F?

Use nontoxic car antifreeze (also propylene glycol but a known dilution) and mix it with the recommended amount of water -- probably 50% unless it's prediluted.  That RV stuff is just to protect the pipes; doesn't say it won't turn slushy, it won't freeze solid and expand.

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Would it help to dilute it with methanol or something?
Methanol is just as bad as ethylene glycol
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zahc

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Re: Propylene glycol (RV antifreeze)
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2011, 11:29:10 PM »
according to wikipedia, the freezing point does go down if you mix it with water. I just never thought that. I guess I have to thaw my heat exchanger out yet again just to get the slushy stuff out of there...
Quote
Methanol is just as bad as ethylene glycol

True but I could use everclear.
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--Tallpine

Scout26

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Re: Propylene glycol (RV antifreeze)
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2011, 12:04:10 AM »
Wait, what ?!?!

I was right ?!?!



I WAS RIGHT !!!!!


WOO HOO !!!!  THAT'S ONE IN A ROW FOR ME !!!!!


 =D =D =D :P :P :P
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Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
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Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
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Sweet memories to drive us on,
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Doggy Daddy

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Re: Propylene glycol (RV antifreeze)
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2011, 12:21:39 AM »
Wait, what ?!?!

I was right ?!?!



I WAS RIGHT !!!!!


WOO HOO !!!!  THAT'S ONE IN A ROW FOR ME !!!!!


 =D =D =D :P :P :P

Dood.  Get off teh webz and get some sleep.  Yer gettin' loopy.

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Pharmacology

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Re: Propylene glycol (RV antifreeze)
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2011, 12:53:51 AM »
Freezin' point depression!!!

Regolith

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Re: Propylene glycol (RV antifreeze)
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2011, 04:02:31 AM »
according to wikipedia, the freezing point does go down if you mix it with water. I just never thought that. I guess I have to thaw my heat exchanger out yet again just to get the slushy stuff out of there...

Huh.  I thought adding water just increased the boiling temperature, and that the antifreeze was to protect in the other direction.


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zahc

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Re: Propylene glycol (RV antifreeze)
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2011, 10:03:36 AM »
Actually all the charts I can find, the freezing point of a glycol/water mixture goes down monotonically as proportion of glycol increases...all the charts stop at 60% propylene glycol (at like -70F). If pure propylene glycol freezes at a higher temperature, it must be a sudden upswing in the freezing point as the glycol percentage approaches 100. That seems a bit far fetched. I wonder if the antifreeze I bought is actually pre-diluted 20% glycol or something.
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zxcvbob

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Re: Propylene glycol (RV antifreeze)
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2011, 11:19:18 AM »
I wonder if the antifreeze I bought is actually pre-diluted 20% glycol or something.
Ding, ding, ding!
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zahc

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Re: Propylene glycol (RV antifreeze)
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2011, 11:53:21 AM »
Lame--anyone know where to buy pure propylene glycol?

I will probably start diluting the stuff I have with cheap vodka until it doesn't freeze any more.
Maybe a rare occurence, but then you only have to get murdered once to ruin your whole day.
--Tallpine

Jim147

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Re: Propylene glycol (RV antifreeze)
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2011, 11:59:12 AM »
United Refrigeration has it. You might check your area for big refrigeration and HVAC supply companies.

jim
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zxcvbob

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Re: Propylene glycol (RV antifreeze)
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2011, 12:10:20 PM »
United Refrigeration has it. You might check your area for big refrigeration and HVAC supply companies.

jim
Why not just use a 1.75L of cheap vodka?  But if you want to use PG, buy a gallon of Sierra automotive antifreeze.

You can also use water and 30% calcium chloride (cheap!) but that might be corrosive to the copper lines.
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birdman

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Re: Propylene glycol (RV antifreeze)
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2011, 12:18:05 PM »
Antifreeze (the glycols) works to depress the freezing point below EITHER the freezing point of either constituent because of molecular shape--crystals of solid glycol or water can't form (the periodic structure required is interrupted)--technically, it vitrifies when the temperature is low enough (which looks like freezing).  When the proportion is off the optimum, the freezing point increases, because crystals can form to a greater degree.  Hence, why the lowest freezing point is with a mixture.

Boiling is the other way around, both propylene and ethylene glycol have higher boiling points than water, thus the mix boils (total vapor pressure of both constituents combined equals local ambient pressure) at a higher point, thus, the boiling point increases with increasing glycol fraction, and doesn't go down.

However, both the thermal conductivity and heat capacity are lower for the glycols than water (which is why race engines don't run antifreeze), thus, you should run the minimum quantity of antifreeze necessary to meet both the freezing and boiling limits to maximize heat transfer. 

CNYCacher

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Re: Propylene glycol (RV antifreeze)
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2011, 12:40:52 PM »
Actually all the charts I can find, the freezing point of a glycol/water mixture goes down monotonically as proportion of glycol increases...all the charts stop at 60% propylene glycol (at like -70F). If pure propylene glycol freezes at a higher temperature, it must be a sudden upswing in the freezing point as the glycol percentage approaches 100. That seems a bit far fetched. I wonder if the antifreeze I bought is actually pre-diluted 20% glycol or something.

Not far-fetched at all.

Antifreeze (the glycols) works to depress the freezing point below EITHER the freezing point of either constituent because of molecular shape--crystals of solid glycol or water can't form (the periodic structure required is interrupted)--technically, it vitrifies when the temperature is low enough (which looks like freezing).  When the proportion is off the optimum, the freezing point increases, because crystals can form to a greater degree.  Hence, why the lowest freezing point is with a mixture.

Boiling is the other way around, both propylene and ethylene glycol have higher boiling points than water, thus the mix boils (total vapor pressure of both constituents combined equals local ambient pressure) at a higher point, thus, the boiling point increases with increasing glycol fraction, and doesn't go down.

However, both the thermal conductivity and heat capacity are lower for the glycols than water (which is why race engines don't run antifreeze), thus, you should run the minimum quantity of antifreeze necessary to meet both the freezing and boiling limits to maximize heat transfer. 

See?
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zahc

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Re: Propylene glycol (RV antifreeze)
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2011, 01:46:10 PM »
The real problem is I don't know the PG concentration of my RV antifreeze. Thus I don't know whether to water it down more (if it's pure PG) or to start adding alcohol (if it's a too-weak PG solution). And you can't determine PG concentration with a hydrometer without knowing some other variable

Quote
Why not just use a 1.75L of cheap vodka?

I might.
1. it's flammable
2. it will evaporate faster

Maybe a rare occurence, but then you only have to get murdered once to ruin your whole day.
--Tallpine

CNYCacher

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Re: Propylene glycol (RV antifreeze)
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2011, 01:52:38 PM »
The real problem is I don't know the PG concentration of my RV antifreeze. Thus I don't know whether to water it down more (if it's pure PG) or to start adding alcohol (if it's a too-weak PG solution). And you can't determine PG concentration with a hydrometer without knowing some other variable

Follow the instructions on the jug it came in?
On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.
Charles Babbage

280plus

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Re: Propylene glycol (RV antifreeze)
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2011, 01:55:30 PM »
3 ratings, flow, freeze and burst. The advertised -50 is burst, or the temp at which the solution when mixed properly will begin to expand. Before that point it is designed to contract. Freeze temp is the point at which the first ice crystal forms  but flow will continue as a slush. Flow is the point at which flow ceases. RV cares about burst only. Listen to Jim, look for no burst or no freeze. Do not mix them with each other. Generally they are 50/50 mix in the can but it's better to get a refractometer and measure exactly what freeze temp you have in the can before you add any water. You can also call the manufacturer with your systems total capacity and what temps you are looking for and they will tell you what ratio to mix their product to.
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280plus

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Re: Propylene glycol (RV antifreeze)
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2011, 01:59:17 PM »
Rumor has it the Ruskies run vodka in their vehicles as antifreeze.
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Balog

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Re: Propylene glycol (RV antifreeze)
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2011, 02:02:30 PM »
The real problem is I don't know the PG concentration of my RV antifreeze. Thus I don't know whether to water it down more (if it's pure PG) or to start adding alcohol (if it's a too-weak PG solution). And you can't determine PG concentration with a hydrometer without knowing some other variable

I might.
1. it's flammable
2. it will evaporate faster



How would it evaporate in a closed loop system?
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Pharmacology

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Re: Propylene glycol (RV antifreeze)
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2011, 03:00:17 PM »
Rumor has it the Ruskies run vodka in their vehicles as antifreeze.
lol, wouldn't surprise me if it's been done before.
vodka is cheap over there.

Shoot, I remember seeing 1L  or 1.5L  bottles for like, a little over $1 american

zahc

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Re: Propylene glycol (RV antifreeze)
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2011, 04:09:33 PM »
How would it evaporate in a closed loop system?

It has an accumulation tank with a submersible fountain pump in it. So it's closed loop in the sense that the liquid is recirculated, but not in the sense that it's closed to the atmosphere (which would require a system that can withstand both vacuum and pressure).
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280plus

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Re: Propylene glycol (RV antifreeze)
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2011, 06:29:56 PM »
Just FYI when you say "closed" on a system like that it generally means closed to the atmosphere.

So if I understand you correctly you're saying you have a cold beer fountain?  =D
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Balog

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Re: Propylene glycol (RV antifreeze)
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2011, 06:55:05 PM »
I think he has a loop where the coolant is pumped through the fridge to an open bucket then recirced? I think a totally enclosed loop with an in line circ pump would work wouldn't it?
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