Towns wants folk to file trip plans before heading out for a walk or bike ride

[Jamie B]

Hull, WI needs to be renamed Darwin, WI.

[De Selby]

And why not?  TX driver ed is 32 hours classroom and 20 hours behind the wheel.  That's as many hours as any of the Bondurant high-performance driving courses.  Just because the time is almost always used poorly doesn't mean it can't be done well if the curriculum is better designed.

Also, making it a lot easier to lose one's license for serious or repeated violations, and toughening up the requirements to get it back would help a lot.  Frankly, economic considerations can go out the window when it comes to pricing the course and testing to get one's license back after losing it to a demonstrated inability or refusal to drive safely.

These measures don't work on people who cannot live adult lives without driving - they just drive anyway, because there's no other way to get by.  And they'll drive crappy, less safe cars to minimise the loss when they do get pulled over...which makes the roads even worse. 

[MechAg94]

And why not?  TX driver ed is 32 hours classroom and 20 hours behind the wheel.  That's as many hours as any of the Bondurant high-performance driving courses.  Just because the time is almost always used poorly doesn't mean it can't be done well if the curriculum is better designed.

Also, making it a lot easier to lose one's license for serious or repeated violations, and toughening up the requirements to get it back would help a lot.  Frankly, economic considerations can go out the window when it comes to pricing the course and testing to get one's license back after losing it to a demonstrated inability or refusal to drive safely.

Honestly, if years of driving experience doesn't teach some people safe driving, no class will do so. 

That said, you will never make it safe enough to remove the risk of riding bikes on public roads.  Even the best drivers have car accidents and moments of inattention.

[KD5NRH]

These measures don't work on people who cannot live adult lives without driving - they just drive anyway, because there's no other way to get by.

Since when?  My BIL hasn't driven in over a year, and still has no problems finding work.

I'm sure there are people who think there's just no way to live without crystal meth, but that doesn't make it true.

And they'll drive crappy, less safe cars to minimise the loss when they do get pulled over...which makes the roads even worse.

A mandatory minimum 60-90 day jail sentence for driving with a suspended or revoked license would tend to help them figure out how to live without the car until they can get licensed again.

[KD5NRH]

Honestly, if years of driving experience doesn't teach some people safe driving, no class will do so.

No, but making it prohibitively expensive to screw up badly or repeatedly will keep the worst ones off the road.

That said, you will never make it safe enough to remove the risk of riding bikes on public roads.  Even the best drivers have car accidents and moments of inattention.

You'll never make it completely safe to drive a truck on public roads either, but getting rid of the worst drivers will make it a lot safer.

[Tallpine]

I'm not sure "training" is an answer, other than the kind of training one should have received as a young child - like being considerate of other people. 

A nation full of jackasses drive like jackasses 

[Harold Tuttle]

a draft ordinance in September that requires biking, running or walking groups to register their travel plans with the town or bans them from using roads outright.

MS charity rides are a farking nightmare, and the local cops do need a heads up

[KD5NRH]

MS charity rides are a farking nightmare, and the local cops do need a heads up

Unfortunately, nobody seems to have the exact wording of this proposed ordinance, so there's no way to know what they define as a group.  Some places have proposed ridiculously small numbers with no exceptions, so families wanting to take their kids for a stroll would need to register.

[Harold Tuttle]

http://www.townofhull.us/pdf/Public%20Safety%20Minutes%2009-15-11.pdf

http://www.townofhull.us/pdf/Public%20Safety%20Minutes%2008-18-11.pdf

http://www.townofhull.us/pdf/Public%20Safety%2006-16-11.pdf

http://www.townofhull.us/pdf/Public%20Safety%20Minutes%2007-21-11.pdf

[KD5NRH]

http://www.townofhull.us/pdf/Public%20Safety%20Minutes%2009-15-11.pdf

http://www.townofhull.us/pdf/Public%20Safety%20Minutes%2008-18-11.pdf

http://www.townofhull.us/pdf/Public%20Safety%2006-16-11.pdf

http://www.townofhull.us/pdf/Public%20Safety%20Minutes%2007-21-11.pdf

All I could gather from those is that they have no f'in clue how to define a group.

[Harold Tuttle]

it seems like they know a bear when they see one, and if someone gets bit, they want to have their hind quarters covered

they have an issue with inadequate shoulders and berms and need to mix 45 mph traffic with 12 mph bikers

one option in those meeting notes is to ban bikes entirely from some roadways

[Hawkmoon]

While I agree with you the law is the law, when there is absolutely no traffic I just don't see the benefit in bothering cyclists.  If they're creating a problem, then yes stick 'em with the ticket. 

But should not the same logic apply to drivers of motor vehicles? If it's okay for a bicycle to blow through a stop sign when there's no on-coming traffic, why isn't it okay for a motor vehicle to do the same?

And once you get to the point of saying it's okay to not stop if there's nobody coming ... then you really have to ask why is there a stop sign or stop light at all?

I hate jackweed bicyclists.

[gunsmith]

Then I guess we should prohibit small people from going out in public where they can be victimized by much bigger criminals, too.

A much bigger criminal tried to victimize me but he stopped when he realized I was pointing a gun at him.

[zxcvbob]

But should not the same logic apply to drivers of motor vehicles? If it's okay for a bicycle to blow through a stop sign when there's no on-coming traffic, why isn't it okay for a motor vehicle to do the same?

And once you get to the point of saying it's okay to not stop if there's nobody coming ... then you really have to ask why is there a stop sign or stop light at all?

It depends on the definition of the word "stop".  I don't see anything wrong with a car slowing to a crawl and then proceeding without coming to a full stop if they are the only ones at the intersection.  If this somehow causes an accident, by all means stick it to them.  That doesn't mean I do rolling stops.  (OK, I do them if I'm on a bicycle and nobody is around.  I come to a complete stop if there's any other traffic)

I hate jackweed bicyclists.

That's OK, we hate you too. 

[gunsmith]

Since when?  My BIL hasn't driven in over a year, and still has no problems finding work.

if you're truly rural like I am you need a vehicle of some sort.
I drive a 300 mile round trip to go to a real supermarket.

I cant ride a bike to work, far to dangerous - in fact even though I love riding bicycles I have given it up except for places where absolutely no cars are, Nevada drivers have no clue about cyclist ... plus my work is 22 miles away and I cant really carry what I need for the days work on a bicycle-barely can on a mc

drove my mc today in 30 degree weather! brrrrr!

[gunsmith]

But should not the same logic apply to drivers of motor vehicles? If it's okay for a bicycle to blow through a stop sign when there's no on-coming traffic, why isn't it okay for a motor vehicle to do the same?

And once you get to the point of saying it's okay to not stop if there's nobody coming ... then you really have to ask why is there a stop sign or stop light at all?

I hate jackweed bicyclists.

the answer to the question is momentum - if you insist that cyclist must come to a complete stop then you have no right to complain when you're stuck behind a cyclist who could be doing at least twenty but due to your intransigence is now legally taking up the lane and going 2 or three miles per hour ... If you like driving slower then you walk - well  OK, personally when I'm behind a bike I hope he goes thru the red light -because I do not like being behind someone going 2 miles per.

[KD5NRH]

if you're truly rural like I am you need a vehicle of some sort.
I drive a 300 mile round trip to go to a real supermarket.

If you choose to cut your arms and legs off, you need a chauffeur.  OTOH, if you choose to move closer to the things you need, you can walk or ride a bicycle.

I cant ride a bike to work, far to dangerous - in fact even though I love riding bicycles I have given it up except for places where absolutely no cars are, Nevada drivers have no clue about cyclist ... plus my work is 22 miles away and I cant really carry what I need for the days work on a bicycle-barely can on a mc

BIL was riding 14+ miles each way on 2-lane Florida highways around Cocoa and Cape Canaveral.  FL has gotten the honor of deadliest state for cyclists for a few years now, (17% of 2008's cyclist and pedestrian fatalities were in FL) and he was right in the middle of tourist country pedaling along with carpentry tools, lunch, and a change of clothes.

[gunsmith]

If you choose to cut your arms and legs off, you need a chauffeur.  OTOH, if you choose to move closer to the things you need, you can walk or ride a bicycle.

BIL was riding 14+ miles each way on 2-lane Florida highways around Cocoa and Cape Canaveral.  FL has gotten the honor of deadliest state for cyclists for a few years now, (17% of 2008's cyclist and pedestrian fatalities were in FL) and he was right in the middle of tourist country pedaling along with carpentry tools, lunch, and a change of clothes.

Yup, riding in Florida is easy compared to where I am ... I know first hand, I lived in Jupiter FL, Tequesta,Lake worth, when I lived in Tequesta you could ride the 20 miles to WPB easy by taking only a few roads and mostly bike paths, northern NV is totally different, I was a professional bike messenger for yrs - I guarantee you I have more experience on bikes then you or your brother, actually let me see, I had my first bike messenger job in 1978 in NYC... probably more then 20yrs experience in the worst kind of conditions imaginable - when I tell you I cant do it from where I am I am not blowing smoke, I could do it physically but with the trucks,gravel,drunks, and totally white out conditions common along with the usual 50mph wind it is quite simply to freaking dangerous. You remember that TX dust storm that had the whole country talking?? Its an everyday occurrence in the black rock desert

http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2011/2010JD014784.shtml

bikes plus cars plus trucks times blinding dust/wind equals death http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34080482/?q=Sierra%20Nevada,%20US

I biked florida, its a cake walk, a flat cake walk, and he wasn't carrying a change of winter clothes, and when you bike in the wither time you still sweat so you dress light to ride then need to carry heavier coats to wear when you stop, you will never ever be able to tell me more about working and bike riding then me. It would be like a someone who rode a pony at a carnival telling the Pony Express how easy it is

[gunsmith]

If you choose to cut your arms and legs off, you need a chauffeur.  OTOH, if you choose to move closer to the things you need, you can walk or ride a bicycle.

  how about I just tell you how to live your life? That would be simpler.

[roo_ster]

speaking as a professional cyclist for 20yrs I agree a million percent, I despise bike lanes-nothing but magnets for everything detrimental to biking safely & the only person riding on a sidewalk should be supervised 6 to 10 yr olds

As a far less experienced cyclist, I concur.  Bike lanes are of the Devil.

People who can't be counted on to avoid bicycles and pedestrians should not be behind the wheel of a car.

Yes, there are lots of those people, but that's a problem with our licensing system and a cultural penchant for treating recklessness on the road less harshly than other types of lethal recklessness. 

Because of the way our economy is set up, it just isn't feasible to train every driver and certify that they're actually safe on the road.  My vote goes to better road engineering as a solution.

Better road engineering is most definitely in order.  WAY to many interchanges that are death traps for almost everyone involved.

Part of the price for liberty is risk.  The risk-averse need to crawl their azzes to a nanny state and ask, "Mother may I?"

These measures don't work on people who cannot live adult lives without driving - they just drive anyway, because there's no other way to get by.  And they'll drive crappy, less safe cars to minimise the loss when they do get pulled over...which makes the roads even worse.

QFT.

Also, LEOs on the road know and understand this.  Illegals many times get a pass, if they otherwise appear clean.  Poor Americans, too.  ESPECIALLY poor folks in generally poor areas who look like they are driving work trucks.  As part of the way to pay for school, I worked for a tree removal company several summers from age 15 until graduating from college.  Towards the last few years, my part-time employer went through Hard Times^TM.  None of the vehicles had plates or the requisite commercial truck verbiage on the exterior.  I was never, ever pulled over.  I drove the speed limit & obeyed the laws, so the municipal, county, and state LEOs passed me over.

At the end of the day, any real crack down would net a huge number of illegals and their boosters in America would squawk like wet hens.  Yeah, they drive drunk and generally kill more folks on the road than Americans, but so long as the affluent can have their gardeners & nannies and crooked businessfolk can have their laborers, it is all worth it, I'm sure.

[zxcvbob]

As a far less experienced cyclist, I concur.  Bike lanes are of the Devil.
Better road engineering is most definitely in order.  WAY to many interchanges that are death traps for almost everyone involved.

My city is in the process of putting in bike lanes.  And when they get near an intersection, they often do an 'X' with the left right turn lane.    (any road engineer who designs an 'X' traffic pattern should have his license revoked or be shot, or both)

[brimic]

I hate jackweed bicyclists.

Werd.
In the city I work in, a lot of local bicyclists have an entitlement mentality to their priviledges.
They don't obey trafffic rules and often times ride side by side at 10 mph or more under the speed limit on busy streets.
Then again I work in the far-lefty side of Milwaukee. In other areas I drive through (ghetto), pedestrians not only ignore crosswalks/crosswalk signals, but will purposely shuffle slowly across the road in front of you.
There are days that I really want to go home and start welding on my killdozer.

[gunsmith]

often times ride side by side at 10 mph or more under the speed limit on busy streets.

It does suck but most likely they are obeying the law, in most municipalities riding side by side is encouraged as it makes them easier to see.

Keeping up with a 25mph speed limit for a long distance can only be achieved by not stopping, so unless you want the cyclist to go through a red light/stop sign you're gonna have to accept slow bikers in front of you.

If it is safe to do so its makes more sense for a bike to go through a light in order to insure a smoother flow of traffic.

[brimic]

If it is safe to do so its makes more sense for a bike to go through a light in order to insure a smoother flow of traffic.

Most of what I'm seeing is running red lights or 4-way stops.

[De Selby]

Werd.
In the city I work in, a lot of local bicyclists have an entitlement mentality to their priviledges.
They don't obey trafffic rules and often times ride side by side at 10 mph or more under the speed limit on busy streets.
Then again I work in the far-lefty side of Milwaukee. In other areas I drive through (ghetto), pedestrians not only ignore crosswalks/crosswalk signals, but will purposely shuffle slowly across the road in front of you.
There are days that I really want to go home and start welding on my killdozer.

How dare they slow you down your way to work - don't those pedestrians and cyclists know who you are, and how important it is for you to travel at the maximum possible speed?