Author Topic: Court Staffer Fired for Helping Wrongfully Convicted Man  (Read 13865 times)

MechAg94

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Re: Court Staffer Fired for Helping Wrongfully Convicted Man
« Reply #50 on: August 02, 2013, 09:37:40 AM »
Chris, I guess I understand what you are saying about how the system is set up, however, I think our legal system should be set up to make sure we don't convict innocent men.  At least I thought that was how our founders viewed it.  All your examples were about helping the prosecution.  IMO, if the court knows of something that can or should exonerate a person of a crime, the court should be obligated to bring that to light to both sides.  I realize there is a lot of legal grey area though.  Not sure how to implement that especially when the system has to deal with a lot of lawyers who love to twist the wording.
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Tallpine

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Re: Court Staffer Fired for Helping Wrongfully Convicted Man
« Reply #51 on: August 02, 2013, 10:31:56 AM »
Quote
If the file the clerk accessed was under seal, that means somehow, a judge made a decision that the information in that file was to be excepted from public records laws for the protection of the individuals involved.  For this clerk to copy documents from such a file and hand them out to someone, even "for the right reasons", well I think that's a big deal.

So is the point here that the wrongly convicted person was trying to get DNA evidence to clear himself but that evidence could not be obtained without information from victim records "under seal"  ???

 =|
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tokugawa

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Re: Court Staffer Fired for Helping Wrongfully Convicted Man
« Reply #52 on: August 02, 2013, 12:35:01 PM »
What we have here is the classic tension between "justice" and "the law".  Entertainingly, this forum has staunch advocates of both extremes as well as the middle.


Balog

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Re: Court Staffer Fired for Helping Wrongfully Convicted Man
« Reply #53 on: August 02, 2013, 12:47:40 PM »
I'll just point out that prosecutors who manufacture or withhold evidence are almost never held accountable or sanctioned in any way for it. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/01/prosecutorial-misconduct-new-orleans-louisiana_n_3529891.html?view=print&comm_ref=false
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T.O.M.

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Re: Court Staffer Fired for Helping Wrongfully Convicted Man
« Reply #54 on: August 02, 2013, 02:48:40 PM »
I'll just point out that prosecutors who manufacture or withhold evidence are almost never held accountable or sanctioned in any way for it. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/01/prosecutorial-misconduct-new-orleans-louisiana_n_3529891.html?view=print&comm_ref=false

I read that article yesterday.  Interestingly enough, it was sent to me by a woman who was a secretary in the prosecutor's office when I worked there.  Long story short, she's got a child out-of-wedlock from a different prosecutor, who was married to someone else at the time and supervising this woman.  Talk about ethical issues!
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T.O.M.

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Re: Court Staffer Fired for Helping Wrongfully Convicted Man
« Reply #55 on: August 02, 2013, 03:11:28 PM »
In reading through this thread again, I guess I'm seeing it from a different perspective than many of you.  Most of you are seeing an innocent man that was trying to get out of an incorrect sentence, and this clerk is being punished for helping that to happen.  What I'm seeing is a woman who broke the rules and went into a sealed file to pass on information to a convicted felon.  Both are right.  Where the difference lies is in the point of view.  You all see a man convicted for something he didn't do, and are rightfully upset by that, so the idea of someone being punished for helping an innocent man get out of prison is disgusting to you.  I see this as one of the many post-conviction motions that get filed in a court.  This case is easy, because we are seeing it from the perspective of people who know (now) that the man was actually innocent.  Do we assume every person convicted in a jury trial is innocent?  I can guarantee you that in the 18 years I've worked in the system, darned few hear the jury's verdict and nod along agreeing with their conviction.  And, even some who plead guilty get to prison, start talking to a jailhouse lawyer, or a public defender reviewing their case, and then even they are innocent and were screwed by the prosecutor.  Every post-conviction motion starts with the position that the convict was wrongfully convicted.  And every one asks for an order releasing the inmate while the issue is litigated.

No one is right or wrong on this issue.  You all are right to be indignant about an innocent man being in prison.  But I'm jaded, in that I have seen way too many of these kind of motions.
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T.O.M.

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Re: Court Staffer Fired for Helping Wrongfully Convicted Man
« Reply #56 on: August 02, 2013, 03:17:15 PM »
Chris, I guess I understand what you are saying about how the system is set up, however, I think our legal system should be set up to make sure we don't convict innocent men.  At least I thought that was how our founders viewed it.  All your examples were about helping the prosecution.  IMO, if the court knows of something that can or should exonerate a person of a crime, the court should be obligated to bring that to light to both sides.  I realize there is a lot of legal grey area though.  Not sure how to implement that especially when the system has to deal with a lot of lawyers who love to twist the wording.

The reason I gave all of the examples of helping the prosecution was to point out something.  Many people think judges and prosecutors work together to get convictions, which I agree would be morally and legally wrong.  Yet, in this situation, the "court" and a convict worked together, and suddenly it's an outrage that the "court" was punished for doing this.  You can't have it both ways.  You can't be angry if a court helps one side, and also angry that this lady was punished for helping the other side.  The only way to protect the integrity of the system is to prohibit the court from helping either side.
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zxcvbob

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Re: Re: Court Staffer Fired for Helping Wrongfully Convicted Man
« Reply #57 on: August 02, 2013, 03:24:12 PM »
Laws are being put in place that severely curtail the discretion of judges and courts.  Take for example the traffic court I handle one day a week in Juvenile Court.  I have no discretion at all on a kid who gets any ticket during the first six months he's got a license.  Mandatory six month suspension.  Doesn't matter if it's speeding, reckless operation, or my personal favorite...improper backing.  No discretion.  When I tried once to use some common sense (the improper backing case), the bureau of motor vehicles not only suspended the license by administrative action, but also wrote to my judge advising him of my attempts to circumvent the law.  Anyways, I digress...


Actually, I think you do have some discretion -- if the mandatory punishment does not fit the crime, then obviously no crime was committed.  "Not guilty" <bangs gavel> 

It wouldn't be very good for your career...
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T.O.M.

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Re: Re: Court Staffer Fired for Helping Wrongfully Convicted Man
« Reply #58 on: August 02, 2013, 03:46:42 PM »
Actually, I think you do have some discretion -- if the mandatory punishment does not fit the crime, then obviously no crime was committed.  "Not guilty" <bangs gavel> 

It wouldn't be very good for your career...

Thanks.  I needed a laugh.   :lol:
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tokugawa

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Re: Court Staffer Fired for Helping Wrongfully Convicted Man
« Reply #59 on: August 02, 2013, 03:51:18 PM »
Chris,
 I think what you are seeing is that an increasing number of honest solid citizens think the "system" is corrupt to it's core.  Every time a thread like this comes up, in numerous forums, I am astounded to see how many previously pro-cop, pro legal system people (in particular the shooters, constitutional conservatives, etc,) state they have no faith in the "system".  It is not that they have no belief in the rule of law, they just think there IS no rule of law anymore.

 THAT , IMO, is the real story here.

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Re: Court Staffer Fired for Helping Wrongfully Convicted Man
« Reply #60 on: August 02, 2013, 03:54:39 PM »
Chris,
 I think what you are seeing is that an increasing number of honest solid citizens think the "system" is corrupt to it's core.  Every time a thread like this comes up, in numerous forums, I am astounded to see how many previously pro-cop, pro legal system people (in particular the shooters, constitutional conservatives, etc,) state they have no faith in the "system".  It is not that they have no belief in the rule of law, they just think there IS no rule of law anymore.

 THAT , IMO, is the real story here.

I'm afraid you may be right.  Personally, I wonder where my share of the bribe money is going, because I'm driving a 1999 Chrysler and still paying off student loans 18 years later.  I must suck at being corrupt!   :lol:
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freakazoid

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Re: Court Staffer Fired for Helping Wrongfully Convicted Man
« Reply #61 on: August 02, 2013, 04:55:08 PM »
Quote
Many people think judges and prosecutors work together to get convictions, which I agree would be morally and legally wrong.  Yet, in this situation, the "court" and a convict worked together, and suddenly it's an outrage that the "court" was punished for doing this.

The difference is one is working to punish, the other is working to free.
To quote Sir William Blackstone, "It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer"

While I agree that since it is illegal for the person to of have done that, I believe it shouldn't of been.
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Levant

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Re: Re: Court Staffer Fired for Helping Wrongfully Convicted Man
« Reply #62 on: August 02, 2013, 05:11:58 PM »
I'm not surprised at all but I am disappointed to see so many in a forum about liberty who believe in law over justice or right.  Or, even worse, that following the law is always right and breaking the law is always wrong. The Founders of our nation were all law breakers. Nothing in our national heritage implies we should blindly obey the law.

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vaskidmark

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Re: Re: Court Staffer Fired for Helping Wrongfully Convicted Man
« Reply #63 on: August 03, 2013, 04:57:16 AM »
I'm not surprised at all but I am disappointed to see so many in a forum about liberty who believe in law over justice or right.  Or, even worse, that following the law is always right and breaking the law is always wrong. The Founders of our nation were all law breakers. Nothing in our national heritage implies we should blindly obey the law.

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A preface to this post - my sciatica is acting up.  Extreme pain and extreme pain releivers both at work, so I might just seem to be a bit more cranky than usual.  If toes that get stepped on should not have been stepped on, or should not have been stepped on so hard, I apologize in advance.

I really do not see anybody, including the judge disciplining the clerk, saying that giving the guy a copy of the motion was, in and of itself, wrong or worthy of discipline.  It is all the other stuff the clerk did that was "wrong", unethical, and deserving of discipline.  Discussing details of a case with attorneys who are not parties to the case is bad enough, but revealing information sealed by the court is precisely the same as a priest going into a bar and gossiping about things they have heard in in confession.  It is in fact the difference between contempt of court (I share with the judge my opinion of him, his ancestors and progeny, his intellectual capabilities, and the failings of his personal hygiene) and criminal contempt of court (doing - or failing to do - things that are impede/prevent  the court's ability to administer justice).

To beat the deceased equine one more time - the guy was not convicted because DNA evidence was false or intentionally withheld - his trial was a year before DNA testing was generally accepted by the courts as being scientifically reliable and trustworthy.  Now, 27 years later, the guy wants to overturn his conviction because there is a technology that can demonstrate, to within the scientific standard established by the courts, that he was not the guilty party.  Why he waited so long has not been addressed such that we could discuss the issue meaningfully.

Let me suppose and propose a course of actions.  The clerk hears that the guy/his family are trying to figure out if DNA testing to prove his innocence can be done this late after conviction and if so, would the court accept the evidence.  The clerk shows a family member a motion that someone else, in a somewhat similar cas, filed and mentions that in that case the conviction was overturned.  That's providing basic information and stating a fact.  No problem.

The motion for DNA testing is filed, a case opened, and certain material is sealed.  Pretty much standard.

The clerk discusses the case with attorneys that are not involved in the case (gossips) and reveals material that the court had ordered sealed (see the comment above on the sanctity of the confession).  Bad and double-plus bad.

The clerk discusses the case (specifically the progress of the case) with the petitioner and the guy who had already sucessfully used DNA testing to overcome his conviction - outside of the necessaty business of the court and not in the presence of the guy's attorney and the prosecutor.  Extra-especially very bad, and illegal to boot.  In doing so, the clerk suggested to the guy hoping to get his conviction overturned several legal maneuvers to perform - actions clearly outside her scope of work and most likely trampling the prohibition against the illegal practice of law into a gory mess.

So, although the judge mentions giving the guy a copy of a sucessful motion for DNA testing, that act in and of itself was, at least comparatively, of so little consequence as to be meaningless except as the act which put everything else into motion.

That so many do not see that makes my head hurt almost as badly as my hip/leg.  I can take meds to ring the hip/leg pain down to tolerable levels.  There is nothing that seems capable of stopping my head from hurting until/unless folks get their head moved from its current location.

stay safe.
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tokugawa

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Re: Court Staffer Fired for Helping Wrongfully Convicted Man
« Reply #64 on: August 03, 2013, 11:03:36 AM »
The reason, again, that people can't see something wrong is that they NO LONGER CARE. It has been shown the powers that be can get away with ANYTHING. So explain again whypeople should care about some law clerk breaking the law to help get some guy freed?
 
 Would this clerk ever have received disciplinary action if they had been helping Jamie Dimon?
 Or one of our New Royal Family?  Or some other favored person? NFW.

 I don't hang in cites, I don't hang with lawyers or judges much, but I can tell you out here in the sticks the idea that there is equal protection under the law is laughable. And if they can't prove you guilty they will destroy your life with "process".

 
 
 
 
 

roo_ster

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Re: Court Staffer Fired for Helping Wrongfully Convicted Man
« Reply #65 on: August 03, 2013, 08:40:48 PM »
Would this clerk ever have received disciplinary action if they had been helping Jamie Dimon?
 Or one of our New Royal Family?  Or some other favored person? NFW.


 I don't hang in cites, I don't hang with lawyers or judges much, but I can tell you out here in the sticks the idea that there is equal protection under the law is laughable. And if they can't prove you guilty they will destroy your life with "process".

Chris,
 I think what you are seeing is that an increasing number of honest solid citizens think the "system" is corrupt to it's core.  Every time a thread like this comes up, in numerous forums, I am astounded to see how many previously pro-cop, pro legal system people (in particular the shooters, constitutional conservatives, etc,) state they have no faith in the "system". It is not that they have no belief in the rule of law, they just think there IS no rule of law anymore.

 THAT , IMO, is the real story here.

What tokugawa wrote, in spades.

No rule of law, supposedly neutral judiciary/LEOs aligned against the citizenry, special classes, process as punishment, and intentionally opaque laws & regs requiring a native guide (lawyer welfare) pretty much sum it up for me. 

Other than some federally-subsidized insanity and outrageous behavior (AKA, "an enlistment in the US Army") I have been a straight arrow.  Then, I met my wife and realized SHE was the straight arrow.  Toss in some years' interaction with the civil law and some observation of the criminal side and neither of us think there is such a thing as rule of law or integrity in the law enforcement (LEOs, prosecutors, judiciary) functions of government.  The only saving grace is that most of those caught up in the system are actual bad guys.  Stupid bad folks are just easier to find grist for the mill, I suppose.

Lord help any actually innocent person caught up in a civil or criminal law bind.  First, they are going to lose, the only question is if they lose small or lose big.  If they "win" they lose small, being punished by the process.  They may still have their lives ruined.  If they "lose," they are well and truly screwed, screwed, screwed.  The chances of "winning" are mostly a crap shoot independent of guilt/liability and can only be adjusted by the lavish expenditure of money. 

FTR, I a one of those "solid citizen" types and have the papers to prove it.
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roo_ster

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Levant

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Re: Re: Court Staffer Fired for Helping Wrongfully Convicted Man
« Reply #66 on: August 04, 2013, 01:14:52 AM »
A preface to this post - my sciatica is acting up.  Extreme pain and extreme pain releivers both at work, so I might just seem to be a bit more cranky than usual.  If toes that get stepped on should not have been stepped on, or should not have been stepped on so hard, I apologize in advance.

I really do not see anybody, including the judge disciplining the clerk, saying that giving the guy a copy of the motion was, in and of itself, wrong or worthy of discipline.  It is all the other stuff the clerk did that was "wrong", unethical, and deserving of discipline.  Discussing details of a case with attorneys who are not parties to the case is bad enough, but revealing information sealed by the court is precisely the same as a priest going into a bar and gossiping about things they have heard in in confession.  It is in fact the difference between contempt of court (I share with the judge my opinion of him, his ancestors and progeny, his intellectual capabilities, and the failings of his personal hygiene) and criminal contempt of court (doing - or failing to do - things that are impede/prevent  the court's ability to administer justice).

To beat the deceased equine one more time - the guy was not convicted because DNA evidence was false or intentionally withheld - his trial was a year before DNA testing was generally accepted by the courts as being scientifically reliable and trustworthy.  Now, 27 years later, the guy wants to overturn his conviction because there is a technology that can demonstrate, to within the scientific standard established by the courts, that he was not the guilty party.  Why he waited so long has not been addressed such that we could discuss the issue meaningfully.

Let me suppose and propose a course of actions.  The clerk hears that the guy/his family are trying to figure out if DNA testing to prove his innocence can be done this late after conviction and if so, would the court accept the evidence.  The clerk shows a family member a motion that someone else, in a somewhat similar cas, filed and mentions that in that case the conviction was overturned.  That's providing basic information and stating a fact.  No problem.

The motion for DNA testing is filed, a case opened, and certain material is sealed.  Pretty much standard.

The clerk discusses the case with attorneys that are not involved in the case (gossips) and reveals material that the court had ordered sealed (see the comment above on the sanctity of the confession).  Bad and double-plus bad.

The clerk discusses the case (specifically the progress of the case) with the petitioner and the guy who had already sucessfully used DNA testing to overcome his conviction - outside of the necessaty business of the court and not in the presence of the guy's attorney and the prosecutor.  Extra-especially very bad, and illegal to boot.  In doing so, the clerk suggested to the guy hoping to get his conviction overturned several legal maneuvers to perform - actions clearly outside her scope of work and most likely trampling the prohibition against the illegal practice of law into a gory mess.

So, although the judge mentions giving the guy a copy of a sucessful motion for DNA testing, that act in and of itself was, at least comparatively, of so little consequence as to be meaningless except as the act which put everything else into motion.

That so many do not see that makes my head hurt almost as badly as my hip/leg.  I can take meds to ring the hip/leg pain down to tolerable levels.  There is nothing that seems capable of stopping my head from hurting until/unless folks get their head moved from its current location.

stay safe.

It can take 27 years to get a hearing on DNA.  There are many examples of just how many times convicts are refused and appeal and are refused again.  The DNA proved his innocence.  That eliminates any trickery on his part in waiting 27 days or 27 years.  He wasn't the guy.  Of that, there is no doubt.

As for whatever else the judge may have fired the clerk for, his statement was giving the form.  Even considering the later embellishments,  the result of the clerk's actions was that an innocent man was set free.  There is no promise under the sun that I might ever make that outweighs the right of the innocent to be freed.  If I knew information that would free someone falsely imprisoned, I would always be obligated to share it.  The clerk helped free an innocent man.  End of story.  Justice over law or protocols.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Court Staffer Fired for Helping Wrongfully Convicted Man
« Reply #67 on: August 04, 2013, 02:11:27 AM »
It can take 27 years to get a hearing on DNA.  There are many examples of just how many times convicts are refused and appeal and are refused again.  The DNA proved his innocence.  That eliminates any trickery on his part in waiting 27 days or 27 years.  He wasn't the guy.  Of that, there is no doubt.

As for whatever else the judge may have fired the clerk for, his statement was giving the form.  Even considering the later embellishments,  the result of the clerk's actions was that an innocent man was set free.  There is no promise under the sun that I might ever make that outweighs the right of the innocent to be freed.  If I knew information that would free someone falsely imprisoned, I would always be obligated to share it.  The clerk helped free an innocent man.  End of story.  Justice over law or protocols.
hyperbole much?

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vaskidmark

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Re: Court Staffer Fired for Helping Wrongfully Convicted Man
« Reply #68 on: August 04, 2013, 06:39:41 AM »
So is the point here that the wrongly convicted person was trying to get DNA evidence to clear himself but that evidence could not be obtained without information from victim records "under seal"  ???

 =|

I'm trying not to sound snarky, because I certainly do not feel that way.  But wouyld you please explain to me how you arrived at that conclusion?

http://www.kmbc.com/news/kansas-city/longtime-court-employee-fired-for-offering-advice/-/11664182/21212530/-/xwesmm/-/index.html

Quote
....  A Jackson County Circuit judge considers the 34-year court employee an insubordinate for offering legal advice and being too chatty about courthouse matters.

What the judge considered offering legal advice - and a rough time line of when the convicted man started seeking DNA testing:

Quote
Robert Nelson, 49, was convicted in 1984 of a Kansas City rape that he insisted he didn't commit and sentenced to 50 years for forcible rape, five years for forcible sodomy and 15 years for first-degree robbery. The judge ordered the sentence to start after he finished serving time for robbery convictions in two unrelated cases prior to the rape conviction.

Those sentences ended in 2006.

In August 2009, Nelson filed a motion seeking DNA testing that had not been available at his trial 25 years earlier, but Jackson County Circuit Judge David Byrn denied the request. Two years later Nelson asked the judge to reconsider, but again Byrn rejected the motion because it fell short of what was required under the statute Nelson had cited.

After the second motion failed in late October 2011, Snyder gave Nelson's sister, Sea Dunnell, a copy of a motion filed in a different case in which the judge sustained a DNA request.

Regarding the availability of the motion and whether it was under seal or not:

Quote
Nelson used that motion - a public document Dunnell could have gotten if she had known its significance and where to find it ....

About discussing information under court seal, and who she discussed it with:

Quote
Byrn fired her June 27, telling her she had violated several court rules by providing assistance to Nelson and talking about aspects of the case, even while under seal, to attorneys not involved in the matter.

To state it bluntly - she gossipped about the case with attorneys who had no involvement with the case, and more specifically she gossipped about information that the judge had determined should not be made available to the public when they came to the courthouse to look at/read/copy the cae file  (I keep using the analogy of the material under seal being confidential in the same manner as the what a person tell a priest in the confessional.)

Quote
The judge's dismissal letter cites numerous recorded phone conversations between Dunnell and Nelson in which they discussed Snyder's efforts, including the document she provided that Nelson used in his successful DNA motion.

The clerk went beyond providing basic information and education.  While it does not explicitly say so, a logical inference could be made that the clerk did not confine her conversation to the exchange of pleasantries and the weather.

The clerk's behavior makes it difficult (to say it nicely) for the public to trust the judicial system to be impartial.

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

Tallpine

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Re: Court Staffer Fired for Helping Wrongfully Convicted Man
« Reply #69 on: August 04, 2013, 11:38:37 AM »
Quote
I'm trying not to sound snarky, because I certainly do not feel that way.  But wouyld you please explain to me how you arrived at that conclusion?


I aksed a question.  I don't have time to read every linked article.
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Levant

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Re: Court Staffer Fired for Helping Wrongfully Convicted Man
« Reply #70 on: August 04, 2013, 01:13:46 PM »
The clerk's behavior makes it difficult (to say it nicely) for the public to trust the judicial system to be impartial.

stay safe.

Actually, it's exactly opposite.  Judges who go to extremes to prevent the accused from discovering how to defend themselves makes people not trust the judicial system.  By the way, it shouldn't be impartial.  It should presume innocence.

On the other side of the coin, when a government worker sticks their neck out to save an innocent person that gives the public hope.  Courts aren't funded to provide that level of service to everyone but if they do it once in a while then people learn how to help themselves.

The clerk's behavior is an example of government truly at its finest.
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vaskidmark

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Re: Court Staffer Fired for Helping Wrongfully Convicted Man
« Reply #71 on: August 04, 2013, 06:59:21 PM »
Yes, really, I do derive pleasure from beating my head against this brick wall.  So, here I go with one more attempt.

Telling the family about how to file a request forDNA evidence = Good.

Discussing the details of the case with members of the defendant/petitioner/appelant's family = IDK, because there is not enough info on what was discussed.  Jusge seems to think it was "advice" on how the case ought to be handled, ehat strategic move(s) to be made next, etc.

Gossipping with attorneys who have/had no relationship or connection to the case about information in the court file that the court saw fit (for whatever reason) to place under seal = Very Bad.

Is anybody besides me willing to concentrate on that last issue all by itself?  Why not?

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

Levant

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Re: Court Staffer Fired for Helping Wrongfully Convicted Man
« Reply #72 on: August 04, 2013, 09:45:05 PM »
Yes, really, I do derive pleasure from beating my head against this brick wall.  So, here I go with one more attempt.

Telling the family about how to file a request forDNA evidence = Good.

Discussing the details of the case with members of the defendant/petitioner/appelant's family = IDK, because there is not enough info on what was discussed.  Jusge seems to think it was "advice" on how the case ought to be handled, ehat strategic move(s) to be made next, etc.

Gossipping with attorneys who have/had no relationship or connection to the case about information in the court file that the court saw fit (for whatever reason) to place under seal = Very Bad.

Is anybody besides me willing to concentrate on that last issue all by itself?  Why not?

stay safe.

I'm 100 per cent willing to concentrate on the last issue all by itself.  Please state any facts you have such as the names of attorneys with whom Mrs. Snyder spoke and what sealed documents she spoke about.  I've looked at at least a dozen different variations on this story in the news and not a single one mentioned any specifics.  And why would both the prosecutor and "attorney" have problems with her actions?  Did neither care about justice?  Were both more concerned about earned votes in the one case and billable hours on the other?

Were the other lawyers she spoke with those from the Innocence Project?  Was she trying to undo a criminal conspiracy to prevent an innocent man from getting justice?

Please provide any facts you can find about what was sealed and what she did and why she should not have done what she did anyway.
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Levant

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Re: Court Staffer Fired for Helping Wrongfully Convicted Man
« Reply #73 on: August 04, 2013, 10:25:47 PM »
Luckily, it appears she's going to get her pension.

Quote
Snyder is still set to receive her full pension.

"At first I didn't know if my pension was going to be intact, and all I could do was curl up in a fetal position and cry," Snyder said.

Snyder said she thinks she may have answered Nelson’s prayers.

"I lent an ear to his sister, and maybe I did wrong," she said. "But if it was my brother, I would go to every resource I could possibly find."

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/kansas-court-employee-fired-helping-prove-mans-innocence#
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Re: Court Staffer Fired for Helping Wrongfully Convicted Man
« Reply #74 on: August 05, 2013, 02:02:05 AM »
I'm 100 per cent willing to concentrate on the last issue all by itself.  Please state any facts you have such as the names of attorneys with whom Mrs. Snyder spoke and what sealed documents she spoke about.  I've looked at at least a dozen different variations on this story in the news and not a single one mentioned any specifics.  And why would both the prosecutor and "attorney" have problems with her actions?  Did neither care about justice?  Were both more concerned about earned votes in the one case and billable hours on the other?

Were the other lawyers she spoke with those from the Innocence Project?  Was she trying to undo a criminal conspiracy to prevent an innocent man from getting justice?

Please provide any facts you can find about what was sealed and what she did and why she should not have done what she did anyway.

Repeating myself -

http://www.kmbc.com/news/kansas-city/longtime-court-employee-fired-for-offering-advice/-/11664182/21212530/-/xwesmm/-/index.html

Byrn fired her June 27, telling her she had violated several court rules by providing assistance to Nelson and talking about aspects of the case, even while under seal, to attorneys not involved in the matter.

I have absolutely no idea what material was under seal.  That's sort of the whole point of it being sealed, isn't it?  To keep it out of the public record.

I have no idea why she talked "about aspects of the case, even while under seal, to attorneys not involved in the matter."  All I have to go on is the judge saying there were recordings of her doing so.   He gets to make the decision if thatis factual as opposed to a hallucination.

If tyhe attorneys she spoke with were connected with te Innocence Project they would have been involved in the case.  The judge said that wjoever it was she talked with was not involved in the case.  The onus is actually on you to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they were in fact involved in the case.

Why does it matter what the judge sealed, or why he sealed it?  The guy and his attorney had the oppoetunity at the time it was placed under seal, and at every point of contact with the court following that, to appeal the ruling sealing the material.  As there is no information saying they did that, the inference must be that they in fact did not challenge the sealing of the material, whatever it was.

If someone ( attorney, reporter. busybody, curious onlooker) who was/is not directly connected to the case wanted to challenge the sealinmg of the material there are procedures for doing that.  Because there was no mention of anybody having filed a challenge the inference musat be that nobody in fact challenged the sealing of the material.

Whatever was sealed was never withheld from the prosecutor, the defense attorney(s) or the defendant/appellant.  They were, as a matter of fact, the only ones besides the judge and the clerk, who were entitled to look at, handle, read, and even copy (so long as the copied material was protected from disclosure the same as the original sealed material) whatever was placed under seal.  So what's the big deal you are trying to create about material being placed under seal?

Where the heck does "[w]as she trying to undo a criminal conspiracy to prevent an innocent man from getting justice"" come from?  What can/do you offer, except an overactive imagination and perhaps an untreated case of paranoia, to even suggest that conspiracy?  The judge even said that if he/his relatives, friends, or attorneys requesyed a copy of the motion from the other court file they would have been entitled to it as a matter of law.  Which is one of the reasons why I eliminated that whole issue from the discussion.

As for "[a]nd why would both the prosecutor and "attorney" have problems with her actions?  Did neither care about justice?  Were both more concerned about earned votes in the one case and billable hours on the other?" - let's start with the presentation above about how the right to challenge the sealing of material can be challenged, by whom it can be challenged, and that there is nothing showing that anybody ever challenged the sealing of the material that was in fact placed under seal.  Then we can go to the fact that once the material is placed under seal it becomes both an ethical and criminal violation to breach the seal.  If someone feels the material under seal ought to be made part of the public record they can follow the established process for seeking to overturn the order sealing the material.  (Admittedly it might be a bit more difficult if the person challenging the sealing had absolutely no idea whatsoever what was under seal, but there are established procedures for getting at least a hint about what is under seal.)

I will grant that there are certain laws that ought not to be followed - but I will insist that before we willy-nilly go ignoring one of those laws we try to get it overturned/repealed.  The guy was convicted 27 years ago, presumably at least on part based on some sort of body fluid analysis - but not DNA analysis because it was not until a year after his conviction that DNA analysis was deemed to be scientifically reliable.  So he had roughly 26 years to apply for DNA analysis of whatever bofy fluids were in evidence  I do not think it is material at all to bother asking why he waited until "now" to ask for it to be done.  As a matter of fszct there is some indication that he might in fact have submitted a previous motion that was turned down.  Even first-year law students can be trained to "shepardize" a case to see if someone previously had been successful in petitioning for DNA analysis, and then hunt down that motion to use as an example of how his should be worded.  I'll go so far as to say that if the Innocence Project was involved and they did not find that motion it would be grounds for an appeal based on ineffective legal counsel.

A clerk wjo is within months of retirement ought to know what the sealing of a portion of a record means, and what the probable consequences of breaching that seal would be.  So I cannot put her gossiping about material under seal with attorneys not involved in the case down to an "innocent" error by someone who did not know any better.

Do you see any difference between breacing the seal of confidentiality in this case and a prirst breaking the seal of confidentiality of the confessional?  If so, what is that difference, and why is it different?

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.