Author Topic: Is A Partial Birth Abortion Interstate Commerce?  (Read 13837 times)

Matthew Carberry

  • Formerly carebear
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,281
  • Fiat justitia, pereat mundus
Re: Is A Partial Birth Abortion Interstate Commerce?
« Reply #75 on: February 28, 2007, 07:43:38 AM »
That pre-supposes peak oil is fact.

Among the non-alarmist scientific and materialistic types that is no more "settled" than the human influence on global warming.  Similar to GW, every peak oil estimate thus far has been wrong.
"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

"As for affecting your movement, your Rascal should be able to achieve the the same speeds no matter what holster rig you are wearing."

tyme

  • expat
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,056
  • Did you know that dolphins are just gay sharks?
    • TFL Library
Re: Is A Partial Birth Abortion Interstate Commerce?
« Reply #76 on: February 28, 2007, 08:54:46 AM »
Quote from: LAK
Other than in cases of actual rape - who are these people actually forced to have sex in this "forced baby-making" process you imply?

Oh, my mistake.  I thought we had all progressed beyond the idea that the only purpose of sex is to have children.
Support Range Voting.
End Software Patents

"Four people are dead.  There isn't time to talk to the police."  --Sherlock (BBC)

cordex

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,669
Re: Is A Partial Birth Abortion Interstate Commerce?
« Reply #77 on: February 28, 2007, 10:00:05 AM »
Quote from: tyme
Oh, my mistake.  I thought we had all progressed beyond the idea that the only purpose of sex is to have children.
Yeah, and into a time where there are literally dozens of options for preventing a pregnancy.

However, whether we like it or not, heterosexual intercourse is a biological process that can result in the creation of new human life.  Some folks have no problem eliminating that life whenever they feel like it because it isn't a person in their eyes unless and until they decide that they want it to be.  Tyme, I'm all for freedom, but some choices come with consequences.  Sometimes the consequences can affect us for nine months.  Sometimes they can affect us for the rest of our lives.  We get to make decisions and we get to live with consequences.

That is reality.

A long time ago I heard a skit (I think it was by Three Dead Trolls in a Baggie) that featured a farmer discussing his opinion about abortion.  Whenever I hear debates about abortion, I think of it.  I wish I could find it ... it is a very funny skit.  One part goes:
Quote
When he was sixteen, the boy said he was going to the big city and weren't nothin' the missus and I could do about it.  That is when we decided to have an abortion.  The boy fought hard.  He shot me three times before I was able to perform the abortion.  I know the Lord have it in his heart to forgive me.  The way I see it, if they ain't votin', they ain't human.

CAnnoneer

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,136
Re: Is A Partial Birth Abortion Interstate Commerce?
« Reply #78 on: February 28, 2007, 10:42:07 AM »
Quote
That pre-supposes peak oil is fact. Among the non-alarmist scientific and materialistic types that is no more "settled" than the human influence on global warming.  Similar to GW, every peak oil estimate thus far has been wrong.

I think we need to make a distiction between claims for peak oil location on the time axis, and a more general claim for the existence of peak oil at all, past or future. People play the numbers too much to make a reliable estimate for the former, but I think it is essentially impossible to argue against the latter.

Oil is a finite limited resource. The rate of consumption is increasing while the rate of discovery of new deposits is falling and the energy costs of the extraction of new deposits are increasing. Please explain how the inevitable conclusion is not that at a certain point peak oil will be reached (if not reached already).

As far as climate change goes, the controversy is not if we have one; it is how significant that contribution is compared to volcanic activity and inherent climactic behavior of the planet.

CAnnoneer

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,136
Re: Is A Partial Birth Abortion Interstate Commerce?
« Reply #79 on: February 28, 2007, 10:48:38 AM »
Quote
who are these people actually forced to have sex in this "forced baby-making" process you imply?

Yes, the fundamental problem in the world is too much fracking! We should cut down on that because abortion is not an option. You first!

Matthew Carberry

  • Formerly carebear
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,281
  • Fiat justitia, pereat mundus
Re: Is A Partial Birth Abortion Interstate Commerce?
« Reply #80 on: February 28, 2007, 11:06:57 AM »
Quote
That pre-supposes peak oil is fact. Among the non-alarmist scientific and materialistic types that is no more "settled" than the human influence on global warming.  Similar to GW, every peak oil estimate thus far has been wrong.

I think we need to make a distiction between claims for peak oil location on the time axis, and a more general claim for the existence of peak oil at all, past or future. People play the numbers too much to make a reliable estimate for the former, but I think it is essentially impossible to argue against the latter.

Oil is a finite limited resource. The rate of consumption is increasing while the rate of discovery of new deposits is falling and the energy costs of the extraction of new deposits are increasing. Please explain how the inevitable conclusion is not that at a certain point peak oil will be reached (if not reached already).

As far as climate change goes, the controversy is not if we have one; it is how significant that contribution is compared to volcanic activity and inherent climactic behavior of the planet.

Right, if our contribution is significant to GW we need to change our ways, if it isn't we just need to adapt to the new climate paradigm.  No need to panic. 

As far as peak oil goes, if the point of no return is 50-100+ years out, there is no reason to particularly care now.  By that point a slow change to a more sustainable energy source will have occured.  Peak oil will be a meaningless fact.  It only matters if it will occur (and then rapidly run out) in the next decade or so, and there's no evidence of that.  In the case of energy, it's inevitable that technology will provide a solution as economics demands it.  If not, then lifestyle change will occur, again without needing forcing by any political authority.

There's just no evidence of any need to panic or mobilize "public resources" to look for a solution for either "problem".  Private enterprise will, as always, save the day.

Burn hydrocarbons to your hearts content, you won't change the inevitable one whit.  That's my motto.  grin
"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

"As for affecting your movement, your Rascal should be able to achieve the the same speeds no matter what holster rig you are wearing."

publius

  • friend
  • New Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 97
Re: Is A Partial Birth Abortion Interstate Commerce?
« Reply #81 on: February 28, 2007, 02:54:22 PM »
We are totally screwed. When we run out of whales, which is inevitable, there will be no way to light our lamps!

On a more serious note, geologists have noted exhausted oilfields being mysteriously replenished. The oil came from somewhere. Perhaps unknown reservoirs, or perhaps oil is not leftover dinosaur slime, but a natural product which the earth generates.

If this thread were about that subject, instead of the abuse of the commerce clause, I might just dig up some articles about those things.

tyme

  • expat
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,056
  • Did you know that dolphins are just gay sharks?
    • TFL Library
Re: Is A Partial Birth Abortion Interstate Commerce?
« Reply #82 on: February 28, 2007, 03:58:51 PM »
Quote
Yeah, and into a time where there are literally dozens of options for preventing a pregnancy.

None of which are 100%, as I'm sure you know.  So you're saying that anyone who has sex must risk the life-altering possibility of being the parent of a child, which is either put up for adoption or raised for 18 years?  Wow.  That's one way to take the fun out of sex.  It's effectively the same as saying sex is only for reproductive purposes.

Quote
However, whether we like it or not, heterosexual intercourse is a biological process that can result in the creation of new human life.  Some folks have no problem eliminating that life whenever they feel like it because it isn't a person in their eyes unless and until they decide that they want it to be.

Okay, that's it.  I'm starting a pro-life campaign to defend the rights of cancers.  Clusters of cancer cells represent human life.  They're genetically human, and they're certainly alive.  Cancer patients can either choose to coexist with their cancer, or they can choose to have the cancer removed and kept alive in vitro.  Purposeful attempts to use medicine to shrink or kill tumors, or failure of cancer patients to provide for the nutritional needs of their cancer once it's removed, shall constitute murder.
Support Range Voting.
End Software Patents

"Four people are dead.  There isn't time to talk to the police."  --Sherlock (BBC)

publius

  • friend
  • New Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 97
Re: Is A Partial Birth Abortion Interstate Commerce?
« Reply #83 on: February 28, 2007, 04:19:33 PM »
Purposeful attempts to use medicine to shrink or kill tumors, or failure of cancer patients to provide for the nutritional needs of their cancer once it's removed, shall constitute murder.

Yeah, but the real question here is, will such attempts be interstate commerce?

cosine

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,734
Re: Is A Partial Birth Abortion Interstate Commerce?
« Reply #84 on: February 28, 2007, 05:54:07 PM »
Did someone say interstate? Here's the road sign we just passed:



Wink  grin
Andy

Matthew Carberry

  • Formerly carebear
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,281
  • Fiat justitia, pereat mundus
Re: Is A Partial Birth Abortion Interstate Commerce?
« Reply #85 on: February 28, 2007, 06:06:20 PM »
Next stop, stranded, snowbound, in the Oregon mountains.

Who's up for the heroic yet futile (and fatal) hike to get help?
"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

"As for affecting your movement, your Rascal should be able to achieve the the same speeds no matter what holster rig you are wearing."

LAK

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 915
Re: Is A Partial Birth Abortion Interstate Commerce?
« Reply #86 on: February 28, 2007, 10:24:52 PM »
Quote
Hehehe. Land in and of itself is not enough - it has to be fertile and robust for agricultural purposes. China has huge land mass but only a small portion of it is suitable for agriculture. The result is that without massive imports of food, they will starve to death.

Right. And the vast tracts of land in central area, south america, russia etc are suited to a variety of crops and livestock. In Alaska, another area of billions of acres of open land, people grow record size vegetables in small family plots.

Peak oil is a myth. We have plenty of oil, and there is hardly a square mile on planet earth that does not have oil beneath it if one drills deep enough. The Russians have some land wells in operation that are located at depths exceeding 40,000 feet.

Most of this nonsense is around people control, keeping populations servile and dependant by controlling their movement into areas of financial independence and levels of self sufficiency.

------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

LAK

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 915
Re: Is A Partial Birth Abortion Interstate Commerce?
« Reply #87 on: February 28, 2007, 10:39:14 PM »
tyme
Quote
Oh, my mistake.  I thought we had all progressed beyond the idea that the only purpose of sex is to have children.

Progressed? Sex is an element in the process by which we reproduce. Not visa versa. The fact that food tastes good does not change it's purpose, rather it is meant to make nourishment a desireable and pleasurable process. People that eat for the sheer pleasure of eating to the point of vomiting, so that they can just eat more and more are rightfully looked upon as freaks.

So the idea is that "progress" means that in order to be able to just rut like animals "for fun" - we need to be able to exterminate all these troublesome children before they draw their first breath of air and become a "burden"?

------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

publius

  • friend
  • New Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 97
Re: Is A Partial Birth Abortion Interstate Commerce?
« Reply #88 on: March 01, 2007, 01:54:40 AM »

So the idea is that "progress" means that in order to be able to just rut like animals "for fun" - we need to be able to exterminate all these troublesome children before they draw their first breath of air and become a "burden"?


Or at least before they can affect interstate commerce.

(starting to think my steering wheel may be broken here...)

cordex

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,669
Re: Is A Partial Birth Abortion Interstate Commerce?
« Reply #89 on: March 01, 2007, 05:22:01 AM »
Quote from: tyme
None of which are 100%, as I'm sure you know.  So you're saying that anyone who has sex must risk the life-altering possibility of being the parent of a child, which is either put up for adoption or raised for 18 years?  Wow.  That's one way to take the fun out of sex.  It's effectively the same as saying sex is only for reproductive purposes.
Tyme, it doesn't take the fun out of sex.  It puts the responsibility into sex.  I know it is great fun, but it isn't just great fun.  Anyway, pregnancy isn't the only potential consequence of sex.  There are a number of possible outcomes when a man and a woman engage in intercourse and if they aren't ready to deal with those outcomes then they aren't mature enough to start the ball rolling.
Quote
Okay, that's it.  I'm starting a pro-life campaign to defend the rights of cancers.  Clusters of cancer cells represent human life.  They're genetically human, and they're certainly alive.  Cancer patients can either choose to coexist with their cancer, or they can choose to have the cancer removed and kept alive in vitro.  Purposeful attempts to use medicine to shrink or kill tumors, or failure of cancer patients to provide for the nutritional needs of their cancer once it's removed, shall constitute murder.
You try so hard ...
Even you can recognize that equating cancerous tumors to unborn children is obviously specious.

CAnnoneer

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,136
Re: Is A Partial Birth Abortion Interstate Commerce?
« Reply #90 on: March 01, 2007, 06:45:47 AM »
Quote
Right. And the vast tracts of land in central area, south america, russia etc are suited to a variety of crops and livestock.

Exactly which areas are you talking about, ones that are not yet under agriculture but are robust enough to sustain it? Maybe you suggest we wipe out the Amazon forest to grow veggies for the out-of-control rabbit-people?

Quote
In Alaska, another area of billions of acres of open land, people grow record size vegetables in small family plots.

Alaskan soil is no good, and you know it. I very much doubt those giant vegetables even exist, and if they do, that they were made without massive chemical use. As explained previously, sustained agriculture is only possible with robust soils, and even then overfarming depletes it unless chemicals are made extensive use of, but those chemicals must be made out of something, namely oil. Besides, even if you do have the chemicals, if the soil is ecologically fragile, it will erode quickly and the land will become worthless. Again, stop shooting off the hip and educate yourself about these issues. J. Diamond is a good place to start.

Your argument about deep drilling does not prove anything other than that there are some deposits that are deeper than usual. In any case, getting to them is far more expensive energetically, and thus the net benefit is shrinking. It is also an established fact that fewer new deposits are being discovered, and the ones that are, are more difficult and costly to extract than the older ones. If there is a lot of oil right under where you sit, why aren't you drilling?

Finally, if you believe that sex has no other role than pleasure and procreation, you must have never been in a healthy mature relationship, and you need further formal education.

tyme

  • expat
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,056
  • Did you know that dolphins are just gay sharks?
    • TFL Library
Re: Is A Partial Birth Abortion Interstate Commerce?
« Reply #91 on: March 01, 2007, 10:43:54 AM »
Quote from: cordex
Tyme, it doesn't take the fun out of sex.  It puts the responsibility into sex. ... There are a number of possible outcomes when a man and a woman engage in intercourse and if they aren't ready to deal with those outcomes then they aren't mature enough to start the ball rolling.

You can't instill responsibility into would-be parents by making it illegal to abort the product of their irresponsibility.  You want to burden everyone else with the social and economic consequences rather than let the real would-be parents acknowledge that they're not mature enough to raise a child.  In fact, you're encouraging them to delude themselves into believing they are mature enough to raise a child.  And if you encourage adoption, that just displaces some other child from adoption.  There are many more unwanted children than there are adults who want to be parents.  No thanks to your philosophy.

Quote from: cordex
Even you can recognize that equating cancerous tumors to unborn children is obviously specious.

Um, no, it's actually not.  They're both genetically human.  They're both alive.  According to pro-lifers, those are the only present requirements for something to get legal protection as a human person.

How can you call anything specious after equating abortion with killing a 16-year-old?  There's the small matter that one is self-sufficient, self-aware and able to express his wishes, while the other is not even biologically self-sufficient, not self-aware, and like all uncommunicative patients is subject to the medical will of next-of-kin, even if that means death.
Support Range Voting.
End Software Patents

"Four people are dead.  There isn't time to talk to the police."  --Sherlock (BBC)

LAK

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 915
Re: Is A Partial Birth Abortion Interstate Commerce?
« Reply #92 on: March 02, 2007, 12:49:58 AM »
CAnnoneer
Quote
Alaskan soil is no good, and you know it.

I know this; you obviously know little about Alaska. People do grow some amazing vegetables there. Fertilizer is commonly used all over the world, and there are no shortage of natural sources for various types in Alaska.

There's plenty of oil worldwide. Period. Peak oil is a stick to keep people waiting with bated breath for their slavemasters to tell them how little or less their disposable income will be one year or another and blame it on their frontmen running the client states with headscarves.

Quote
Finally, if you believe that sex has no other role than pleasure and procreation, you must have never been in a healthy mature relationship, and you need further formal education.

That is not what I stated. But go on; you have the floor. I am all ears ...

------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org




cordex

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,669
Re: Is A Partial Birth Abortion Interstate Commerce?
« Reply #93 on: March 02, 2007, 05:19:06 AM »
Quote from: tyme
You can't instill responsibility into would-be parents by making it illegal to abort the product of their irresponsibility.
Can you instill responsibility into parents by making it illegal to kill their toddlers?  No?  Then why is it illegal?
Quote from: tyme
You want to burden everyone else with the social and economic consequences rather than let the real would-be parents acknowledge that they're not mature enough to raise a child.  In fact, you're encouraging them to delude themselves into believing they are mature enough to raise a child.
You're completely missing the point.  The couple who had sex are the ones who want to burden everyone else with the social and economic consequences of their actions.  I personally am simply against the killing of their would-be child.
Quote from: tyme
And if you encourage adoption, that just displaces some other child from adoption.  There are many more unwanted children than there are adults who want to be parents.  No thanks to your philosophy.
That's only partially true.  There is a massive ... excuse the term ... market for newborns when it comes to adoption.  The "unwanted children" tend to be the older kids who are passed over because parents tend to want infants rather than older children with existing problems.  Another infant put up for adoption does not necessarily displace anyone.
Quote from: tyme
Um, no, it's actually not.  They're both genetically human.  They're both alive.  According to pro-lifers, those are the only present requirements for something to get legal protection as a human person.
I'm sure you're right.  I'm sure that there are some pro-lifers out there who use that definition but it is not mine.

Tell me, tyme, what defines a person to you?  Under what conditions should a squirming mass of cells be given human rights?
Quote from: tyme
How can you call anything specious after equating abortion with killing a 16-year-old?  There's the small matter that one is self-sufficient, self-aware and able to express his wishes, while the other is not even biologically self-sufficient, not self-aware, and like all uncommunicative patients is subject to the medical will of next-of-kin, even if that means death.
*laugh*  Tyme, I was sharing a skit that I found amusing.  Maybe you just had to hear it.  If I can find it I'll share it.

publius

  • friend
  • New Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 97
Re: Is A Partial Birth Abortion Interstate Commerce?
« Reply #94 on: March 03, 2007, 07:20:13 AM »
Quote
Under what conditions should a squirming mass of cells be given human rights?
When it first engages in interstate commerce?

Matthew Carberry

  • Formerly carebear
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,281
  • Fiat justitia, pereat mundus
Re: Is A Partial Birth Abortion Interstate Commerce?
« Reply #95 on: March 03, 2007, 09:50:31 AM »
Quote
Alaskan soil is no good, and you know it. I very much doubt those giant vegetables even exist, and if they do, that they were made without massive chemical use. As explained previously, sustained agriculture is only possible with robust soils, and even then overfarming depletes it unless chemicals are made extensive use of, but those chemicals must be made out of something, namely oil. Besides, even if you do have the chemicals, if the soil is ecologically fragile, it will erode quickly and the land will become worthless. Again, stop shooting off the hip and educate yourself about these issues. J. Diamond is a good place to start.

Yep, they are a myth.  rolleyes



I would suggest you take your last line to heart, as far as Alaska and agriculture are concerned.  (Also, Jared Diamond is not without his peer critics, don't cite him too freely)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matanuska_Valley

The Mat-Su Valley alone, where those monster veggies come from, is about the size of W. Virginia (though, true, not all of it is arable).  Agriculture is limited by the shorter growing season, but even with that constraint the soil is some of the richest in the world, demanding little in the way of fertilizers or herbicides.  Grows today what is arguably the highest quality pot in the US and some of the largest vegetables anywhere.

The reason we don't have a major agricultural effort up here is timing, need and cost.  Prior to the Alaska Purchase, the population was mainly Natives (who were hunter-gatherers) and Russian fur traders (who weren't farmers), the mix stayed the same for years after "Seward's Folly".  During the Depression 200-odd farmer familys were moved up to the Valley and started successful farms, dairys and ranches.  But still the market was pretty much just subsistance, given the cost of shipping out of state.  Even when the population grew during and after WWII it has been cheaper to import food from the Lower 48, so much of the nice, flat farmland is now being used for housing development. 

But that has nothing to do with the production capacity of the Valley alone, which has never been close to fully utilized, much less pushed to the limit.  And that's just the Valley, which ignores other arable portions of the State.  As far as SHTF scenarios, the underlying soil of Mat-Su is still fantastic and could be returned to production just by bulldozing houses.
"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

"As for affecting your movement, your Rascal should be able to achieve the the same speeds no matter what holster rig you are wearing."

tyme

  • expat
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,056
  • Did you know that dolphins are just gay sharks?
    • TFL Library
Re: Is A Partial Birth Abortion Interstate Commerce?
« Reply #96 on: March 03, 2007, 09:52:01 AM »
Quote from: cordex
That's only partially true.  There is a massive ... excuse the term ... market for newborns when it comes to adoption.  The "unwanted children" tend to be the older kids who are passed over because parents tend to want infants rather than older children with existing problems.  Another infant put up for adoption does not necessarily displace anyone.

What I found in my brief search was that unwanted black babies are plentiful in the U.S., but white babies tend to be adopted from Europe and sovblock states.  Maybe there are too many of both, and families just prefer foreign-born infants to U.S.-born infants.  Maybe I was wrong about the global adoption situation, but I'm not sure the situation is as simple as you describe, either.  If people are selecting infants based on race, maybe the abortion/no-abortion policy decision would best be made on a per-race basis?  And because of the ethical problems I can already envision with that proposal, and the fact that the world population is growing unacceptably, doesn't it make sense to minimize the number of delivered babies?  Nobody has a right to adoption, even if there is more demand than supply.

Quote from: cordex
I'm sure that there are some pro-lifers out there who use that definition but it is not mine.

Tell me, tyme, what defines a person to you?  Under what conditions should a squirming mass of cells be given human rights?

You realize, I hope, that most animals are "squirming" masses of cells at some point?  You can't seriously want to give human rights to them all?  It seems to me that you want some magical nexus between "squirming" and human DNA to magically confer protected legal status as a human being.  Human DNA doesn't make anything special.  Given enough money, humans can now construct arbitrary DNA sequences.  Constructing something as long as a human chromosome is probably still virtually impossible, but I doubt it will remain impossible for long.  And what about hybrids... humans with some genes removed and some other genes inserted?  Are they genetically human?  Where do you draw the line?

These following conditions are rough, so please consider the intent as well as the literal meaning.  I think it's reasonable to grant infants legal status as humans when:

They exhibit the capacity for problem-solving at a level above that of other primates.
They exhibit the capacity for communication and social-interaction. (This is severely problematic because some primates exhibit this as well, but this is artificially "fixed" by the other two criteria.)
They must be genetically human.  Whether this means people with severe genetic mutations, but with human parents, are not humans is open to interpretation.  Or this could be re-written as "must have human parents," although then we have the problem of whether a human-equivalent evolved from some other species gets any legal rights.

Those criteria let infants become legal persons by their own merit at roughly age 2-3.

Legal status as human starting at birth is problematic.  I wrote a longer screed about it earlier, but decided I didn't want to get involved in such a divisive discussion.  But you asked, so...

Parents (and infants) exhibit biochemically-induced psychological bonding with their children (and parents) in a short time after birth.  Legal protection for newborns is therefore justified to reduce 3rd-party harm to newborns, which has serious emotional and psychological consequences for the parents.  There's also the social problem that parents tend to have an overwhelming urge to seek their own extra-legal justice when something happens to their children.  By discouraging harm to infants who do not yet merit human rights on their own, the law can reduce instances of parental extra-legal justice for harms done to those infants.

Even relatives, neighbors, and friends bond with newborns of families in their social circles.  They also have an interest in reducing harm to others' newborns, to prevent their own physiological distress.

I think the line should be drawn at whenever a child advances mentally past the abilities of primates.  That idea that 3rd party harm is enough to justify prohibiting murder is very sketchy, and I'm sure it has some problems.  Nevertheless, I think the core idea is solid.  It's easier for everyone to draw the line at birth because everyone, myself included, feels instinctual revulsion at the idea of killing a breathing, crying human baby, even if it's 1 day old.  So it makes sense that laws against murder, beginning at birth, are more to give us an outlet to do something about our revulsion over the killing, rather than to punish someone on behalf of a self-aware individual who can no longer seek revenge on his own.

Quote from: cordex
Quote from: tyme
You can't instill responsibility into would-be parents by making it illegal to abort the product of their irresponsibility.
Can you instill responsibility into parents by making it illegal to kill their toddlers?  No?  Then why is it illegal?

Because they should have aborted the toddler earlier.  The line has to be drawn somewhere, and there are reasons (outlined above) for drawing that line at birth.

Quote
You're completely missing the point.  The couple who had sex are the ones who want to burden everyone else with the social and economic consequences of their actions.  I personally am simply against the killing of their would-be child.

What consequences are those?  There are only the moral and psychological consequences for those who decide to take upon themselves everyone else's problems, and as a result are traumatized when some other family decides to have an abortion.
Support Range Voting.
End Software Patents

"Four people are dead.  There isn't time to talk to the police."  --Sherlock (BBC)

cordex

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,669
Re: Is A Partial Birth Abortion Interstate Commerce?
« Reply #97 on: March 04, 2007, 07:00:50 AM »
Quote from: tyme
I think the line should be drawn at whenever a child advances mentally past the abilities of primates.
Ah ... I see.  So you're intellectually comfortable with a system that - on a case-by-case basis, I would hope - allows for the termination of voided human embryos (I wouldn't want to use emotionally-charged language like "child", "infant", "baby", "newborn", etc) until and unless they are shown to possess reasoning capabilities at or beyond the level of primates?  I can only assume you chose primates because you think that primate intelligence can be better compared to human intelligence than that of other reasonably smart critters.

At what stage of primate development are we talking?  Obviously you don't seek to compare a freshly extracted human DNA blob with its counterpart primate DNA blob.  Are we talking fully mature primates?  Presumably some sort of average?  If a primate (or other critter, for that matter) is smarter than this average, why shouldn't they be given human rights?
Quote from: tyme
What consequences are those?  There are only the moral and psychological consequences for those who decide to take upon themselves everyone else's problems, and as a result are traumatized when some other family decides to have an abortion.
This is no more the case with regard to abortion than with any other termination of human life.  When it comes to one member of a society killing another member, folks get meddlesome.

Your position is a little more ... interesting ... than many I've spoken with.  You're the first who has argued to me that for a human to be given human rights and protections they must be able to beat a chimpanzee at chess, but I'm always willing to hear new ideas.

We are each coming to the table with our own preconceived notions as to what makes a human a human.  I have the belief that a fertilized and implanted egg, having the combined human DNA of two human parents and the capacity to grow into a human child somehow through some hocus-pocus grants it the protection of human rights.  You believe that human rights should be issued based entirely on some completely arbitrary and nearly impossible to measure scale of intelligence as compared to primates.

I dont know & your system does have some other interesting possible side-effects.  It would add a defense against murder in which the accused could express the belief that the victim was acting dumber than an ape, thus the victim had no protection under the law.  This bears more consideration &

CAnnoneer

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,136
Re: Is A Partial Birth Abortion Interstate Commerce?
« Reply #98 on: March 04, 2007, 09:41:35 AM »
Basing societal rights on IQ tests will not be workable. (Besides we might have to euthanize a lot of bimbos/bunnies, and they are nice on the eye... Hehehe) Right now, we have a mostly workable system, so long as we protect abortion till the seventh month. The ethical objections are debatable while the practical benefits to society are unquestionable.

LAK

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 915
Re: Is A Partial Birth Abortion Interstate Commerce?
« Reply #99 on: March 04, 2007, 11:14:03 AM »
Carebear,

So there is a race of tiny irish peoples in Alaska! I knew it! I knew it was true!!  grin