Author Topic: Can Arizona de-rail Federal Universal Healthcare in a single Fell Swoop?  (Read 5292 times)

AZRedhawk44

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Quote from: US Constitution and Bill of Rights
Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Translation:  If the Feds can't do it right now, and a State reserves a power expressly... the Feds can't take it.

Arizona has a voter proposition this year that will amend our State Constitution.  It's prop 101. 

Quote
PROPOSITION 101
OFFICIAL TITLE
AN INITIATIVE MEASURE
PROPOSING AN AMENDMENT TO THE CONSTITUTION OF ARIZONA; AMENDING ARTICLE II OF THE ARIZONA CONSTITUTION BY ADDING SECTION 36 OF ARTICLE II; RELATING TO FREEDOM OF CHOICE IN HEALTH CARE.

TEXT OF PROPOSED AMENDMENT
Be it enacted by the People of Arizona:

1. Article II, Section 36: Constitution of Arizona is proposed to be added as follows if approved by the voters and on proclamation of the Governor:

ARTICLE II, SECTION 36. BECAUSE ALL PEOPLE SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO MAKE DECISIONS ABOUT THEIR HEALTH CARE, NO LAW SHALL BE PASSED THAT RESTRICTS A PERSON'S FREEDOM OF CHOICE OF PRIVATE HEALTH CARE SYSTEMS OR PRIVATE PLANS OF ANY TYPE. NO LAW SHALL INTERFERE WITH A PERSON'S OR ENTITY'S RIGHT TO PAY DIRECTLY FOR LAWFUL MEDICAL SERVICES, NOR SHALL ANY LAW IMPOSE A PENALTY OR FINE, OF ANY TYPE, FOR CHOOSING TO OBTAIN OR DECLINE HEALTH CARE COVERAGE OR FOR PARTICIPATION IN ANY PARTICULAR HEALTH CARE SYSTEM OR PLAN.

2. The Secretary of State shall submit this proposition to the voters at the next general election as provided by Article XXI, of the Constitution of Arizona.


Basically, this means that the state of Arizona may not under any color of law, abolish or attempt to derail the privatized Health Care industry by attempting to establish a single payor system.

And, it lays the groundwork for a Constitutional challenge against a Federal single payor system by presenting that our State Constitution guarantees freedom of choice in health care, which would be abridged by a usurpation of power by the FedGov if it attempted to mandate a single payor system onto the state of Arizona.

Pretty cool, huh?
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taurusowner

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Re: Can Arizona de-rail Federal Universal Healthcare in a single Fell Swoop?
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2008, 06:44:38 PM »
I think that should stand up.  But the question is, will Obama's SCOTUS really care about what it should mean, or will they see an over-riding "right to (socialized) healthcare" and rule your state law unconstitutional.

BrokenPaw

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Re: Can Arizona de-rail Federal Universal Healthcare in a single Fell Swoop?
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2008, 06:52:11 PM »
Quote
Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.
Translation:  If the Feds can't do it right now, and a State reserves a power expressly... the Feds can't take it.

One of these is not like the other.

The amendment says that powers not granted the federal government by the constitution, are already reserved to the states, unless the constitution prohibits the states from having those powers, in which case those powers belong to the people.

There's nothing in there that says anything about a state passing a law that prevents the federal government from passing a law; either the federal government is granted the power (by the constitution) to pass the law, in which case the state's law is in violation of the constitution, or the federal government is not granted that power, in which case the state law would serve no purpose in preventing fedgov from doing anything; the constitution would already have done so.

This is all, of course, in a perfect world, where the fedgov limited itself as the constitution requires it to.  In the real world, the fedgov will declare that healthcare is a matter covered by the Commerce Clause, because medical supplies and so forth cross state lines, and because if states don't use the federally-mandated People's Health Clinics, people might cross state lines for medical care, and under the Commerce Clause, congress will do as it pleases.

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Lennyjoe

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Re: Can Arizona de-rail Federal Universal Healthcare in a single Fell Swoop?
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2008, 06:59:40 PM »
Yea, good luck gettin Janet to sign it! :laugh:


AZRedhawk44

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Re: Can Arizona de-rail Federal Universal Healthcare in a single Fell Swoop?
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2008, 07:00:59 PM »
Quote
One of these is not like the other.

The amendment says that powers not granted the federal government by the constitution, are already reserved to the states, unless the constitution prohibits the states from having those powers, in which case those powers belong to the people.


Edited for reading clarity:
The powers not prohibited to the states by the Constitution, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

My state may reserve a power it has not yet been prohibited from taking.  Once it takes it, as long as it takes it before the FedGov lays claim to the same power (via Constitutional Amendment to the Federal Constitution), the FedGov sounds like it is barred from taking it back by Amendment 10.

At the very least it would take a Federal Constitutional Amendment to seize the power away to the Federal level from a state which had claimed it under color of Constitutional Law.

Good luck getting 33 states to sign on to Federalized single payor health care.  It IS an awfully big swathe of red in Flyover America.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Can Arizona de-rail Federal Universal Healthcare in a single Fell Swoop?
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2008, 07:02:47 PM »
Yea, good luck gettin Janet to sign it! :laugh:


She doesn't have to.  Voter Prop initiatives don't require a Governor's signature.  That's how we got Prop 200 a couple years ago regarding illegal alien employer sanctions.  Janet didn't sign that either, but it's still law.

She opposes this prop, but it's still making headway.  :-)
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
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I reject your authoritah!

BrokenPaw

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Re: Can Arizona de-rail Federal Universal Healthcare in a single Fell Swoop?
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2008, 10:05:44 AM »
Edited for reading clarity:
The powers not prohibited to the states by the Constitution, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

I see what you're saying, but the way I read the amendment, those powers are already reserved to the states by the constitution, so Arizona need do nothing at all in order to have that power reserved to them.

That's why it says "are reserved to the states", not "may be reserved to the states if the states claim them."  "Are" is definitive and present tense.  All powers not granted the federal government are (already) reserved to the states, respectively, or to the people.

But once again, that's the Perfect World Scenario, absent rampant Commerce Clause abuse.
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De Selby

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Re: Can Arizona de-rail Federal Universal Healthcare in a single Fell Swoop?
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2008, 09:47:49 PM »
This is feel good legislation that protects your right to pay thousands of dollars for care that only cost maybe in the hundreds to deliver, at rates which you aren't able to ascertain in advance, for services that you could possibly die without.

Accurately titled, this would be: "The unconstitutional state law that guarantees your right to keep paying on the number one cause of personal bankruptcies in America"


"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Modifiedbrowning

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Re: Can Arizona de-rail Federal Universal Healthcare in a single Fell Swoop?
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2008, 10:48:13 PM »
This is feel good legislation that protects your right to pay thousands of dollars for care that only cost maybe in the hundreds to deliver, at rates which you aren't able to ascertain in advance, for services that you could possibly die without.


Do you realize that the reason you are paying thousands of dollars for care that only cost maybe in the hundreds to deliver is because of .gov overregulating the healthcare companies and the insurance companies? Medicare, Medicaid and so on.

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crawdaddyjim

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Re: Can Arizona de-rail Federal Universal Healthcare in a single Fell Swoop?
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2008, 10:52:07 PM »
I have nothing to add but personal attacks.

« Last Edit: October 29, 2008, 06:25:14 AM by mtnbkr »

BReilley

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Re: Can Arizona de-rail Federal Universal Healthcare in a single Fell Swoop?
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2008, 11:01:02 PM »
This is feel good legislation that protects your right to pay thousands of dollars for care that only cost maybe in the hundreds to deliver, at rates which you aren't able to ascertain in advance, for services that you could possibly die without.

Accurately titled, this would be: "The unconstitutional state law that guarantees your right to keep paying on the number one cause of personal bankruptcies in America"

Tell you what.  When the federal government gets its present responsibilities - immigration, a balanced budget, emergency management to name a few - mopped up, then we'll talk about giving them yet more power.

As for the feel-good legislation bit, it may get shot down by some lawmaking judge down the line, but the important thing is that the people clearly register their disinclination toward nationalized healthcare.  If nothing else, by approving this proposition, we tell our representatives where we stand, and where they need to stand.

How is it unconstitutional?
Does it follow that if this proposition is unconstitutional, universal healthcare is somehow Constitutionally allowed or guaranteed?

Has the government ever done anything more efficiently or equitably than private enterprise?

Will people EVER(have they ever?) truly value something that is "free"?  When we don't have to pay for something directly(paying via broader taxation does not count), we take it for granted.  Along the same lines, when we are no longer motivated by profit, we don't produce the same quality goods or services.

Honest questions in response to a pretty darn loaded statement...

Browning, litigation and advertising play a lil' part in the whole thing, too... I am honestly not sure where I stand on health-industry regulation these days, simply because of the incomprehensible breadth of "modern" medications for every possible ailment, new ailments being discovered(or manufactured) each day, etc.  I believe in the free market, however I also believe that I shouldn't have to worry about melamine in my milk.

De Selby

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Re: Can Arizona de-rail Federal Universal Healthcare in a single Fell Swoop?
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2008, 11:03:34 PM »
Do you realize that the reason you are paying thousands of dollars for care that only cost maybe in the hundreds to deliver is because of .gov overregulating the healthcare companies and the insurance companies? Medicare, Medicaid and so on.



No, I don't realize that, nor do I believe it to be the case.

Medicare is the reason many hospitals are in business-it's the only stable source of income.  No telling what the insurance companies will and will not pay for sometimes.

Take a look at how many middle managers are injected into the healthcare system by insurance companies to review, review, and review in order to not pay out the money they collected (they profit by not delivering services, not by delivering them), and then tell me how that has something to do with "government regulation."

If government regulation were responsible for the crazy prices, I would not be sitting in a more or less socialist country where folks are worried about rising healthcare costs for individual private insurance at $60 a month for complete private hospital coverage.  

But hey, that's just 'stupid' me-I don't see why I should be paying 50 times the price for the same level of care that other people in the world manage to get.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Modifiedbrowning

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Re: Can Arizona de-rail Federal Universal Healthcare in a single Fell Swoop?
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2008, 11:09:31 PM »
No, I don't realize that, nor do I believe it to be the case.

Medicare is the reason many hospitals are in business-it's the only stable source of income.  No telling what the insurance companies will and will not pay for sometimes.

Take a look at how many middle managers are injected into the healthcare system by insurance companies to review, review, and review in order to not pay out the money they collected (they profit by not delivering services, not by delivering them), and then tell me how that has something to do with "government regulation."

If government regulation were responsible for the crazy prices, I would not be sitting in a more or less socialist country where folks are worried about rising healthcare costs for individual private insurance at $60 a month for complete private hospital coverage.  

But hey, that's just 'stupid' me-I don't see why I should be paying 50 times the price for the same level of care that other people in the world manage to get.


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« Last Edit: October 28, 2008, 11:41:56 PM by Modifiedbrowning »
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De Selby

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Re: Can Arizona de-rail Federal Universal Healthcare in a single Fell Swoop?
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2008, 11:12:47 PM »
Quote
How is it unconstitutional?

This one is fairly simple-Arizona has no constitutional power to regulate interstate commerce, and therefore, no power to interfere with a Federal act to regulate some field of interstate commerce.  

The "law making judges" who decided that the commerce clause bars states from doing these sorts of things did so in 1824, and did so having been around for the drafting of the actual constitution.

Quote
Has the government ever done anything more efficiently or equitably than private enterprise?

Yes.  

Quote
Will people EVER(have they ever?) truly value something that is "free"?  When we don't have to pay for something directly(paying via broader taxation does not count), we take it for granted.  Along the same lines, when we are no longer motivated by profit, we don't produce the same quality goods or services.

There is no such thing as free healthcare-you have to pay even in in the socialist European and commonwealth countries.  The fact is, even though our medical expenses are far higher in America than in these other places, we do not receive additional quality or additional services in response.  Paying more for the same or less is called waste, not "profit motivated quality."

You seem to have answered your own question about government regulation with your reference to melamine-obviously, the free market doesn't always judge your personal health to be profitable.  There's something to think about when you consider whether or not one night in the emergency room with a CT and MRI scan should cost $30,000, or why hospital staff can't tell you what price to expect until they bill you for said $30,000.


"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Matthew Carberry

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Re: Can Arizona de-rail Federal Universal Healthcare in a single Fell Swoop?
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2008, 11:31:40 PM »
rudeness deleted

Is that a personal attack I see?

Knock it off.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2008, 06:25:39 AM by mtnbkr »
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taurusowner

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Re: Can Arizona de-rail Federal Universal Healthcare in a single Fell Swoop?
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2008, 11:40:20 PM »
If the shoe fits...

« Last Edit: October 29, 2008, 06:24:32 AM by mtnbkr »

Modifiedbrowning

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Re: Can Arizona de-rail Federal Universal Healthcare in a single Fell Swoop?
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2008, 11:40:50 PM »
No, I don't realize that, nor do I believe it to be the case.

Medicare is the reason many hospitals are in business-it's the only stable source of income.  No telling what the insurance companies will and will not pay for sometimes.

Take a look at how many middle managers are injected into the healthcare system by insurance companies to review, review, and review in order to not pay out the money they collected (they profit by not delivering services, not by delivering them), and then tell me how that has something to do with "government regulation."

If government regulation were responsible for the crazy prices, I would not be sitting in a more or less socialist country where folks are worried about rising healthcare costs for individual private insurance at $60 a month for complete private hospital coverage.  

But hey, that's just 'stupid' me-I don't see why I should be paying 50 times the price for the same level of care that other people in the world manage to get.

Medicare is the only stable source of income because the gov has regulated the healthcare industry to accept patients who have no insurance coverage. Free healthcare why not use it.

If the gov didn't have so many regulations (at least in my world) you would have a choice of what health insurance you want purchase, like a chinese menu.
I want to purchase healthcare insurance for STDs, smoking related issues and diabetes. No thank you I don't want the Alzheimer's plan (or whatever you would prefer).

As far as "stupid me" I don't where that came from. I didn't call nor implied that you where stupid.

The reason you are paying 50 times the price ( as you say) is because the European countries have a much higher tax rate and can afford to subsidize healthcare to a larger degree than we have done in the US (yes, the gov should not be involved in healthcare, call me stupid or insensitive).

I believe that it is up to the individual to provide for themselves and the less gov interference (and more choice to the individual) the better.
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De Selby

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Re: Can Arizona de-rail Federal Universal Healthcare in a single Fell Swoop?
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2008, 05:31:05 AM »
How do government regulations prevent hospitals from offering pay-for-service options?

I don't get that-what government rule requires everyone to have insurance?  Considering that there are tens of millions with no insurance, what specific government rule prevents hospitals from selling services to those people?

And how exactly would allowing hospitals to deny treatment for failure to pay (emergency treatment only, I presume you mean, since that is all they are required to give) help the system?  Hospital prices will suddenly go down because....hospitals will have to bargain with patients who might die without their treatment? What's the incentive for a hospital to reduce its prices at all from the present scheme, in your world?
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

MicroBalrog

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Re: Can Arizona de-rail Federal Universal Healthcare in a single Fell Swoop?
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2008, 05:36:08 AM »
Do you realize that the reason you are paying thousands of dollars for care that only cost maybe in the hundreds to deliver is because of .gov overregulating the healthcare companies and the insurance companies? Medicare, Medicaid and so on.



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mtnbkr

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Re: Can Arizona de-rail Federal Universal Healthcare in a single Fell Swoop?
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2008, 06:26:06 AM »
Stop with the personal attacks now.

Chris

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Re: Can Arizona de-rail Federal Universal Healthcare in a single Fell Swoop?
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2008, 07:21:18 AM »
It wouldn't be a fell swoop; it would be a really, really good one.   :police:

This is feel good legislation that protects your right to pay thousands of dollars for care that only cost maybe in the hundreds to deliver, at rates which you aren't able to ascertain in advance, for services that you could possibly die without.

Accurately titled, this would be: "The unconstitutional state law that guarantees your right to keep paying on the number one cause of personal bankruptcies in America" 

I thought it was be-free legislation that would protect the right not to be taxed for other people's private business, and the rights of medical folk not to be dragooned into providing their services by force of law. 
« Last Edit: October 29, 2008, 01:07:50 PM by Mr. Tactical pants »
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Can Arizona de-rail Federal Universal Healthcare in a single Fell Swoop?
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2008, 10:52:52 AM »
How do government regulations prevent hospitals from offering pay-for-service options?

I don't get that-what government rule requires everyone to have insurance?  Considering that there are tens of millions with no insurance, what specific government rule prevents hospitals from selling services to those people?

And how exactly would allowing hospitals to deny treatment for failure to pay (emergency treatment only, I presume you mean, since that is all they are required to give) help the system?  Hospital prices will suddenly go down because....hospitals will have to bargain with patients who might die without their treatment? What's the incentive for a hospital to reduce its prices at all from the present scheme, in your world?


In Canada, I've heard that it is against the law for a citizen to contract with a doctor, outside of his regular work schedule, to perform an additional surgery for cash to expedite the scheduling process.  You MUST use the government system to get life-saving surgeries.  It is against the law for a Canadian citizen to attempt to expedite a surgery by means of cash infusion.  Yet... non-Kanucks can come to the country for a particular specialist on a cash basis, have the procedure expedited, and leapfrog a schedule.

We aren't world reknowned for our medicine in AZ... but we do have 2 Mayo clinics here and a couple of medical schools, with lots of hospitals.  We are a snowbird attraction point and have lots of medical experts focused on caring for the elderly.  This legislation pre-empts the ability of anyone to dictate that you can't attempt to make a better deal to save your life.  That if you want Dr. TacticalPants because he's the best in the field, then you can't be forced to accept Dr. ShootinStudent as your surgeon if you don't think he is any good.

It preserves choice in all its forms, and removes (at least) the AZ Government from establishing a dictatory medical system.
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ctdonath

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Re: Can Arizona de-rail Federal Universal Healthcare in a single Fell Swoop?
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2008, 12:35:48 PM »
Such a push from AZ would likely result in a Canadian-type system, which IIRC has both gov't-funded care and private care - which are entirely separate systems. You basically pick one system or the other and stick with it; attempts to switch are fined. Doctors cannot provide services under both systems, they have to choose only one and stick with it.

Think "malicious obedience": if those pushing for universal health care are compelled to respect private care as well, they'll allow the latter but make it criminal to switch.

I had major surgery recently. Was 10 days from "you're sure you don't have any symptoms?" diagnosis to operating room.
In contrast, my Canadian mother-in-law was delayed for years to start chemotherapy, and is now waiting months for sinus surgery, with multiple reschedulings due to insufficient O.R. availability. When pressing to arrange an appointment recently, the doctor declined saying "I have too much paperwork to have time to see you."

And an underdiscussed factoid: every Emergency Room lobby has a sign saying patients will be properly treated regardless of ability to pay. We already have "free universal health care"!
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