Author Topic: Ohio may use nitrogen for executions  (Read 7155 times)

TechMan

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Ohio may use nitrogen for executions
« on: September 07, 2016, 04:29:50 PM »
http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2016/09/06/ohio-may-look-at-nitrogen-as-a-possibility-for-a-new-execution-method.html

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Other states have moved ahead with alternatives. Tennessee permits use of the electric chair, Utah allows the firing squad, and Oklahoma allows nitrogen gas.

I love this quote:
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The report argues that the Ohio's death penalty law "remains plagued by the very same flaws" that caused it to be overturned 40 years ago. There are significant disparities in death sentences based on race and geography, the report states.

But Murphy said the method aside, the death penalty is "not a broken system" in Ohio.

He disputed the report's assertion about geographic disparities. He said Hamilton County Prosecutor Joe Deters, known as a hardliner on capital punishment, "keeps getting elected. This is democracy in action. People elect prosecutors who reflect the attitude of the community."

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zxcvbob

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Re: Ohio may use nitrogen for executions
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2016, 04:50:02 PM »
I'm not a fan of the death penalty.  I used to be, and I approve of it in theory, I just don't trust the state to get it right 100% of the time.

That said, it's about time they consider using nitrogen asphyxiation.  Cheap, effective, and should be painless and relatively humane.  Give the condemned a Valium beforehand if he wants it.  The gas could be delivered with an anesthesia mask.  The executioner switches a valve from air to N2.
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TechMan

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Re: Ohio may use nitrogen for executions
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2016, 05:00:22 PM »
From the article:
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Dr. Jonathan Groner, a professor of clinical surgery at Ohio State University College of Medicine, said using nitrogen gas could be "dangerous and impractical."

"You and I are breathing 78 percent nitrogen right now," he said. "It's not a poison. It's an inert gas."

When nitrogen is introduced, oxygen is pushed out of the bloodstream, causing potentially painful suffocation, Groner said.

"I would challenge that it's foolproof. We've heard that before," he said.
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Hawkmoon - Never underestimate another person's capacity for stupidity. Any time you think someone can't possibly be that dumb ... they'll prove you wrong.

Bacon and Eggs - A day's work for a chicken; A lifetime commitment for a pig.
Stupidity will always be its own reward.
Bad decisions make good stories.

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Viking - The problem with the modern world is that there aren't really any predators eating stupid people.

Firethorn

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Re: Ohio may use nitrogen for executions
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2016, 05:08:06 PM »
From the article:

...  Has Dr. Jonathan Groner actually studied the issue?  "potentially painful suffocation"? 

There's a wealth of data contradicting that theory.

Look up nitrogen gas warning and safety briefings.  Hypoxia test chambers used by NASA, USAF, and Navy to train pilots on potential problems.  Look up that the human body's suffocation reflex is triggered by high carbon dioxide levels, not lack of oxygen.

The "problem" with nitrogen is that it kills you so quickly and without any prior notice that in a nitrogen filled place you just keel over.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2016, 07:46:27 PM by Firethorn »

zxcvbob

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Re: Ohio may use nitrogen for executions
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2016, 05:09:23 PM »
Of course it's dangerous, it's supposed to be dangerous.   :facepalm:

The high number of accidental nitrogen gas asphyxiations suggests that it's not painful at all.  They lose consciousness before they realize anything is wrong.  The sensation of being asphyxiated is caused by CO2 buildup in lungs and blood.  That wouldn't happen here.

ETA: I spent too long editing and Firethorn beat me to the draw.
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KD5NRH

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Re: Ohio may use nitrogen for executions
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2016, 06:27:43 PM »
I'm still favoring a large (20-30 ton) triphammer.  Quick, effective and completely reusable.

MechAg94

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Re: Ohio may use nitrogen for executions
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2016, 06:34:11 PM »
I agree with the above comments.  From everything I have heard, 100% nitrogen atmosphere will cause you to pass out at one breath before you even realize it is happening.  If they blew a air into a booth then switched to nitrogen, the subject would likely never even realize the change happened.  

The only way I have heard people reacting was to low levels of oxygen that were still barely breathable.  

The question is whether than liquid nitrogen supplier would want to put their logo on the storage tank at the prison.  The other funny thing is they would likely be required to use Nitrogen NF which is the designation for FDA approved nitrogen for medical/food use.
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dogmush

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Re: Ohio may use nitrogen for executions
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2016, 06:35:45 PM »
I'm not a fan of the death penalty.  I used to be, and I approve of it in theory, I just don't trust the state to get it right 100% of the time.


I agree.  I used to be a pretty vocal "kill the murderers" guy.  I would still pull the trigger on anyone I ran across abusing kids and/or sexually assaulting women and sleep well that night.  ut as I've gotten older and had more dealings with the government, many from inside it, I've lost enough faith in it that I don't like giving that power to the gov anymore.


As far as the N2, we've had numerous conversations about how our executions are macabrely intricate.  This would be a step in the right direction.

Ben

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Re: Ohio may use nitrogen for executions
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2016, 07:37:12 PM »
I'm not a fan of the death penalty.  I used to be, and I approve of it in theory, I just don't trust the state to get it right 100% of the time.

That said, it's about time they consider using nitrogen asphyxiation.  Cheap, effective, and should be painless and relatively humane.  Give the condemned a Valium beforehand if he wants it.  The gas could be delivered with an anesthesia mask.  The executioner switches a valve from air to N2.

That plus what Dogmush said above. I was also pretty much "fry the guy" in my younger years, but with all the DNA exonerations, not anymore.

I am still in favor of it for heinous crimes where there is video, multiple unrelated witnesses, a confession (even an attention confession, because if you're that stupid, you deserve to die), or any other 100% concrete, multiple factor, irrefutable evidence.

Then if that's the case, as much as I may talk "eye for an eye" from the armchair for some of the sicker killings out there, the murderer should be quickly and efficiently executed. No big fanfare, just an efficient and clinical death to pay the penalty and then drive on.
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Firethorn

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Re: Ohio may use nitrogen for executions
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2016, 08:06:07 PM »
That plus what Dogmush said above. I was also pretty much "fry the guy" in my younger years, but with all the DNA exonerations, not anymore.

My general rule is that I'd withdraw the death penalty from all cases without at least 3 murders and/or deliberate serious torture in addition to the murder.  And no, rape isn't quite enough.

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a confession (even an attention confession, because if you're that stupid, you deserve to die),

I would modify this with "an uncoerced confession".  I've read far too much about how cops from the 70s-90s were able to extract confessions, not perhaps from us, but from those at the 30-40th intelligence percentile(IE they're smarter than 30% of the population, IE slow or dumb), including hanging their cold cases on them.  As sad as picking on the disabled are, you have the other factor in that by hanging a crime on a random schmuck, you have the real perpetrator still out there, often repeating their crime.

Just to be clear, the police are capable of extracting a false confession for something out of ~30% of the population with less than 12 hours of questioning.  Even if there's utterly no possibility the person actually did it.  Even without anything called "torture", with which and additional time the ability to extract a confession approaches 100% of the population.

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Then if that's the case, as much as I may talk "eye for an eye" from the armchair for some of the sicker killings out there, the murderer should be quickly and efficiently executed. No big fanfare, just an efficient and clinical death to pay the penalty and then drive on.

I agree.  It's why I like N2 executions:
1.  You don't even need to tie the prisoner down if you use a booth or even just a sealed room.
2.  It's sure-fire.  Assuming you have sufficient N2 and the room is sufficiently sealed, they WILL die
3.  Relatively clean.  You're not splattering out potentially infectious blood and gore.
4.  Painless.  At this point, you've determined that they're an animal that needs to be put down.  You don't torture a dog for getting rabies.  Don't torture a human.
5.  I don't see the sources being restricted when any welding shop can provide the supplies, for the equipment and the materials needed to make the chamber even. ;)  That's a problem with execution drugs when Europe refuses to sell them to us.  Worst case you can buy devices that will filter out N2 from the atmosphere.
6.  Relatively simple.  As stated, you turn a switch.  You're not trying to get unskilled(because medical professionals won't touch it) people to run IV lines and inject drugs.  It's nearly as easy(and can be as easy), as throwing an electrical switch for old sparky.
7.  Non-toxic.  You'd want some O2 monitors, but unlike old gas chambers, you can open up the chamber and those around won't be harmed.  At worst you might need to introduce some more O2, and just blowing through outside air(IE well ventilated) would be enough.  So safer for others.

Ben

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Re: Ohio may use nitrogen for executions
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2016, 09:21:01 PM »
I would modify this with "an uncoerced confession". 

Agreed. I was thinking more of the "I'm proud of what I did" self-professed youtube type confessions. I would not trust only a confession gained through interrogation.
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just Warren

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Re: Ohio may use nitrogen for executions
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2016, 10:01:38 PM »
Why not liquid nitrogen?!


And given what I've seen of other "hardliner" prosecutors I would not be surprised to find that his trails may lack a certain fairness, due to defense attorneys not being appraised of exculpatory evidence, or witnesses, or even other suspects. All unfortunate, unintended mistakes by the D.A.'s office of course.
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Firethorn

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Re: Ohio may use nitrogen for executions
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2016, 01:31:43 AM »
Why not liquid nitrogen?!

Because it's a lot more expensive than the gas form.  Also, it'd be torture and result in scattered biological material.

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And given what I've seen of other "hardliner" prosecutors I would not be surprised to find that his trails may lack a certain fairness, due to defense attorneys not being appraised of exculpatory evidence, or witnesses, or even other suspects. All unfortunate, unintended mistakes by the D.A.'s office of course.

A good point. 

sumpnz

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Re: Ohio may use nitrogen for executions
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2016, 02:38:44 AM »
Anyone else find it ironic that the article came from a source called "Dispatch"?

cassandra and sara's daddy

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« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2016, 04:14:45 AM »
I favor making as part of a death penalty case that the jurors agree that 2 of them are chosen to drop the hammer. Have to be real sure if you are gonna diy the death

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Firethorn

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Re: Ohio may use nitrogen for executions
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2016, 04:58:42 AM »
I favor making as part of a death penalty case that the jurors agree that 2 of them are chosen to drop the hammer. Have to be real sure if you are gonna diy the death

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50-50 chance that at least one of them is dead or unable to do the deed due to physical or mental degradation by the time it's time to drop the hammer.

T.O.M.

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Re: Ohio may use nitrogen for executions
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2016, 06:59:26 AM »
Been working in the system for 22 years.   I wholeheartedly believe it is the best criminal justice system on the planet.  I also know that it is flawed.  As a young man, and then as a new lawyer,  I believed in capital punishment.   In theory, I still do.  But reality on many different levels leads me to believe that the system we have just isn't good enough for that punishment.

As to the article remarks about geographic disparities in the application of capital punishment,  that is accurate in Ohio.  There are many counties that just do not h ha ve the budget to cover all of the expenses associated with a capital case.  Does that make capital punishment unconstitutional?   Doubtful.   
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AJ Dual

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Re: Ohio may use nitrogen for executions
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2016, 09:28:21 AM »
Been working in the system for 22 years.   I wholeheartedly believe it is the best criminal justice system on the planet.  I also know that it is flawed.  As a young man, and then as a new lawyer,  I believed in capital punishment.   In theory, I still do.  But reality on many different levels leads me to believe that the system we have just isn't good enough for that punishment.

As to the article remarks about geographic disparities in the application of capital punishment,  that is accurate in Ohio.  There are many counties that just do not h ha ve the budget to cover all of the expenses associated with a capital case.  Does that make capital punishment unconstitutional?   Doubtful.   

Besides the mistakes, wrongful convictions, and human failures/groupthink/witchunts where PD's and DA's start doubling down on innocent people because institutional reputation starts getting staked on getting a "win"... I feel the death penalty undermines public safety, simply because of all the costs, court time and prison burden of having a death row etc. it drains resources away from prosecution and incarceration of other criminals.

IMO, the concepts of "punishment" and "reform" in the modern prison system are misguided. The protection of civil society should be the primary goal. And the death penalty actually makes that more difficult.
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KD5NRH

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Re: Ohio may use nitrogen for executions
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2016, 09:42:42 AM »
I wholeheartedly believe it is the best criminal justice system on the planet.  I also know that it is flawed.

Yeah, it is sort of along the lines of "least unpleasant smelling turd in the port-a-can.

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As to the article remarks about geographic disparities in the application of capital punishment,  that is accurate in Ohio.  There are many counties that just do not h ha ve the budget to cover all of the expenses associated with a capital case.  Does that make capital punishment unconstitutional?

Only if the lack of speed enforcement on one road makes it unconstitutional on all others.

MechAg94

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Re: Ohio may use nitrogen for executions
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2016, 01:58:27 PM »
Besides the mistakes, wrongful convictions, and human failures/groupthink/witchunts where PD's and DA's start doubling down on innocent people because institutional reputation starts getting staked on getting a "win"... I feel the death penalty undermines public safety, simply because of all the costs, court time and prison burden of having a death row etc. it drains resources away from prosecution and incarceration of other criminals.

IMO, the concepts of "punishment" and "reform" in the modern prison system are misguided. The protection of civil society should be the primary goal. And the death penalty actually makes that more difficult.
I think the absence of a death penalty as a valid punishment makes it more difficult myself.  I think it is a bit odd that people are willing to dole out death to stop someone in self defense, but are against death as a punishment later on after a trial and consideration of the evidence. 

All the costs and burden of having a death penalty are just an extension of the costs and burdens that are already there for every other criminal case, only magnified.  The problem I see is a great many people who devote themselves to looking for excuses NOT to actually deal out the punishment.  I have listened to some of these lawyers trying to do last minute appeals.  The stuff they bring up almost never has any real bearing on the guilty and whether they committed the crime and often has already been appealed and denied.  I don't have an issue with appeals looking at the quality of the evidence/testimony and fairness of the trial.  That is just common sense.  The checks and balances need to be applicable to the issue at hand and not put there just to be a road block. 

We are not a perfect people and no system we create will ever be perfect.  That does not mean we give up and do nothing.
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brimic

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Re: Ohio may use nitrogen for executions
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2016, 04:45:58 PM »
They warn us in my industry about enclosed spaces filled with inert gases like Nitrogen or Argon- You'll die and not even know it.
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MillCreek

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Re: Ohio may use nitrogen for executions
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2016, 05:42:53 PM »
https://www.wired.com/2009/03/march-19-1981-shuttle-columbias-first-fatalities/

Two deaths when technicians enter a compartment of the Columbia shuttle that had been purged with nitrogen.
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MechAg94

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Re: Ohio may use nitrogen for executions
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2016, 07:10:56 PM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inert_gas_asphyxiation
Wiki has one or two statistics, but not much.  I know there are deaths just about every year in industry due to this stuff.  I have heard of some.  This link has some case descriptions.
https://www.osha.gov/dts/shib/shib042704.html

The company I work for requires different hose fittings for steam, nitrogen, air, and water so none of them can be cross connected.  The hoses are colored differently also.  We are not allowed to use plant air systems for breathing air as most of those systems are backed up with nitrogen.  My current site doesn't even have air hose stations.  If you want air tools, rent a compressor. 

I have heard of deaths where air cylinders were filled incorrectly or labeled incorrectly.  I think that is why a lot of companies don't like filling breathing air cylinders with O2/N2 mixtures.  They would rather use air compressors and test for CO2.  Cylinder operations are always low budget so most everyone tests air cylinders before using them. 
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brimic

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Re: Ohio may use nitrogen for executions
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2016, 09:01:48 AM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inert_gas_asphyxiation
Wiki has one or two statistics, but not much.  I know there are deaths just about every year in industry due to this stuff.  I have heard of some.  This link has some case descriptions.
https://www.osha.gov/dts/shib/shib042704.html

The company I work for requires different hose fittings for steam, nitrogen, air, and water so none of them can be cross connected.  The hoses are colored differently also.  We are not allowed to use plant air systems for breathing air as most of those systems are backed up with nitrogen.  My current site doesn't even have air hose stations.  If you want air tools, rent a compressor. 

I have heard of deaths where air cylinders were filled incorrectly or labeled incorrectly.  I think that is why a lot of companies don't like filling breathing air cylinders with O2/N2 mixtures.  They would rather use air compressors and test for CO2.  Cylinder operations are always low budget so most everyone tests air cylinders before using them. 

In the place I currently work, breathing air, nitrogen, compressed air for air tools, and argon all use a common fitting :facepalm:
I've tried in the past to start a project to have the fittings keyed differently so that people aren't burning out air tools by plugging them into nitrogen fittings (due to lack of oiling), or worse....
Response I've gotten was 'this will cost hundreds of dollars to fix a problem that common sense would avoid' (see previous sentence) ;/
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MechAg94

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Re: Ohio may use nitrogen for executions
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2016, 08:33:08 PM »
In the place I currently work, breathing air, nitrogen, compressed air for air tools, and argon all use a common fitting :facepalm:
I've tried in the past to start a project to have the fittings keyed differently so that people aren't burning out air tools by plugging them into nitrogen fittings (due to lack of oiling), or worse....
Response I've gotten was 'this will cost hundreds of dollars to fix a problem that common sense would avoid' (see previous sentence) ;/
So they only hire people or contractors with common sense.  That is pretty impressive hiring skills.   =D

We are not supposed to use air tools with nitrogen, but that doesn't mean the mechanics don't have a fitting with an oiler that fits the nitrogen hoses.  Thankfully, our two mechanics are both really good workers.
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