Letah Injection - Cruel and Unusual.

[SomeKid]

Thats right folks...

http://fox40.trb.com/news/ktxl-121506death%2C0%2C2055243.story?coll=ktxl-news-1

Death Penalty Ruled Unconstitutional

December 15, 2006

SAN FRANCISCO  A federal judge who imposed a moratorium on state executions ruled Friday that the current method of lethal injection violates a constitutional ban on cruel and unusual punishment.

California's "implementation of lethal injection is broken, but it can be fixed," U.S. District Judge Jeremy Fogel said.

Fogel said the case presented the narrow question of whether a three-drug cocktail administered by San Quentin State Prison officials is so painful that it "offends" the Eighth Amendment ban on cruel and unusual punishment.

Fogel said he was compelled "to answer that question in the affirmative."

The decision is the latest in a nationwide challenge to lethal injection as cruel and unusual punishment and came just after Florida Gov. Jeb Bush suspended all executions in that state after a botched execution this week.

Lethal injection is the preferred execution method in 37 states.

Last month, a federal judge declared Missouri's injection method, which is similar to California's, unconstitutional.

The U.S. Supreme Court has upheld executions - by hanging, firing squad, electric chair and gas chamber - despite the pain they might cause, but has left unsettled the issue of whether the pain is unconstitutionally excessive.

California has been under a capital punishment moratorium since February, when Fogel called off the execution of rapist and murderer Michael Morales amid concerns inmates might suffer excruciating deaths.

Fogel found substantial evidence that the last six men executed at San Quentin might have been conscious because they were still breathing when lethal drugs were administered.

He ordered anesthesiologists to be on hand, or demanded that a licensed medical professional inject a large, fatal dose of a sedative instead of the additional paralyzing agent and heart-stopping drugs used. No medical professional, however, was willing to participate.

Attorneys for Morales alleged in a lawsuit that Morales might appear unconscious after being injected with a sedative, but internally he would succumb to excruciating pain, "burning veins and heart failure," once the paralyzing and the death drug were administered.

Morales, 47, of Stockton, raped and brutally beat a 17-year-old Lodi girl 25 years ago. Terri Winchell was found beaten and stabbed in a secluded vineyard.

There are more than 650 men and women on California's death row, the nation's largest.

Copyright © 2006, KTXL

I bolded that part for the following commentary. Some sack of crap rapes and kills a 17 yo girl before I am even born, and still breathes my air? You know what, I never wanted to set foot in CA, but I would be glad to go cut this worms heart out with a dull knife. That would make stepping into a third world state worthwhile. And I wouldn't even bill the state for my time if they'd pay transportation, room and board. Hell, I might even meet them halfway on expenses...

[HForrest]

Cruel and unusual punishments are still unconstitutional and wrong, no matter how sick/evil the person in question is.

Edited for spelling.

[SomeKid]

Agreed.

What I want to do to the bastard undoubtedly is cruel and unusual. But what I want isn't going to happen.

However, can you honestly tell me you think lethal injection is cruel and unusual?

[Snowdog]

I agree, cruelty shouldn't be exercised by any nation for any reason.  However, from my understanding of lethal injection, I don't see it as being cruel or unusual.

As for capital punishment, I am not strongly opposed.  However, I am somewhat mildly opposed as I see it as a waste of human resources.  

For years now, I’ve always felt the condemned should be given a choice of forced labor in an industrial setting with their execution perpetually deferred by 24 hours.  If they fail to meet their (realistic) production quota, repeatedly make inferior goods or simply refuse to work, their original punishment should be irreversibly reinstated, to be carried out within the day (ala Chinese preference of a 15 cent bullet to the head).  

Some might feel this is a cold and unfeeling perspective of human life, but cruel it is not; as long as they prove useful, they get to live.  After all, they’ve already been convicted and sentenced for some horrendous crime in which their victim was given no such conditional reprieve.

[cosine]

Cruel and unusual punisments are still unconstitutional and wrong, no matter how sick/evil the person in question is.

Agree fully. However, even though I may be opposed to capital punishment in the United States in this day and age, I don't think I categorize lethal injection in the "cruel and unusual" punishment category.

[Antibubba]

Why is a proper hanging considered cruel and unusual?

[gunsmith]

The guillotine is a device used for carrying out executions by decapitation. It consists of a tall upright frame from which is suspended a heavy blade. This blade is raised with a rope and then allowed to drop, severing the victim's head. The device is noted for long being the main method of execution in France and, more particularly, for its use during the French Revolution.
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[roo_ster]

I have problems with capital punishment but I am under no delusion that CP is unConstitutional.

As far as the OP, CP is not unusual: it was used in colonial times as and been since.  Nothing unusual.

CP as practiced in the USA has never been cruel: hanging, firing squad, ol' sparky, the big shot are all pretty quick ways to send someone off to their next state of being.  When states start drawing & quartering folks is when I'll bang the drum and point tot the COTUS.

[grislyatoms]

Not sure where I stand on lethal injection. I don't have a problem with capital punishment.

I did some looking into the agents they use for lethal injection some time back.

What I can't understand is why they use one of the drugs they use.


From Wikipedia:

"The intravenous injection is usually a mixture of compounds, designed to induce rapid unconsciousness followed by death through paralysis of respiratory muscles and/or by inducing cardiac hyperpolarization. The execution of the condemned in most states involves three separate injections:

1. Sodium thiopental: to induce a state of unconsciousness intended to last while the other two injections take effect.
2. Pancuronium/Tubocurarine: to stop all muscle movement except the heart. This causes muscle paralysis, collapse of the diaphragm, and would eventually cause death by asphyxiation.
3. Potassium chloride: to stop the heart from beating, and thus cause death: see cardiac arrest."


#2 is the one I question. IF the folks receiving lethal injection DO feel pain, they would not be able to make it obvious because #2 causes a complete paralysis. Why bother, when a dose of #1 followed by #3 would do the trick? Or, maybe just use a lethal dose of #1 (it's a short-acting barbiturate, if I understand correctly) for that matter? Or just give them an OD of morphine? They would fall asleep and not wake up.
Sheesh, even hemlock seems to be a better alternative, given the anecdotal evidence I have read about how it works. Probably more cost effective, too.

Here's the scenario that bugs me:

Condemned gets agent #1 running through his veins. Condemned SEEMS unconscious. Then, they give him #2, causing complete muscle paralysis. What if condemned isn't entirely unconscious? At this point, he/she would not be able indicate pain, and would be unable to draw breath.

Partially conscious and unable to breathe sounds cruel and unusual to me.

Were I in that position (condemned), I would choose hanging or firing squad.

Kind of reminds of something from a Terry Pratchett novel.

Character 1: "I have heard that death is quite painless"
Character 2: "Who told you?"

[mfree]

I say just be a little "late" in walking them to the chair/chamber/table....

"come on, dead man walking. it's time."
"Oh look, it's midnight" *unholster* *pop* *thump*
"Cleanup call...."

==============

Or, introduce "the boat"... park 'em a half mile from shore shackled into a dinghy with a couple hundred pounds of surplus explosives. Helps feed the fish too...

[Iain]

We've been around my views on CP before, I don't like the practicalities as regards human justice. The practicalities of the act itself are in question, I don't see lethal injection as cruel and unusual any more than any execution could be referred to as such. What I do object to, and it seems a Bush brother shares my view, is the botched nature of the recent Florida execution. Terribly incompetent.

[vaskidmark]

Here is the opinion:  http://news.lp.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/crim/morales121506opn.html

Read it and THEN make your comments about lethal injection and the 8th Amendment.

My understanding of the 8th Amendment is that just as we do not execute the retarded because they will not understand why they are being killed, we should not intentionally inflict pain if there is another way of killing the &)P&)(^*^(*% who is to be executed.

There are a number of machines that have been patented and used for pitting the brain of the guest of honor.  Several of them are activated by multiple persons (removed the singular guiot issue) and others by variations such as sunlight entering a tube with a solar cell at the bottom.

Not only did I get to talk with a number of persons on death row, I got to review the autopsy reports & forensic evidence of their victims.  All I will say is that unless one is very careful, one may develop a certain perspective that might not be considered socially appropriate for dinner-table conversation.

stay safe.

skidmark

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

If preventing pain is the issue, can't we simply anesthetize the scumbags before killing them?

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

We've been around my views on CP before, I don't like the practicalities as regards human justice. The practicalities of the act itself are in question, I don't see lethal injection as cruel and unusual any more than any execution could be referred to as such. What I do object to, and it seems a Bush brother shares my view, is the botched nature of the recent Florida execution. Terribly incompetent.

How exactly was the recent Florida execution "botched"??

[Nightfall]

A shotgun slug to the back of the head isn't cruel, or unusual. It's instant, it's cheap, and it's real effective.

[AJ Dual]

Well damn.

There goes all that R&D money I sunk into the "Paper-cut-lemon-juice-o-matic 5000" I was about to sell to the State of California.

From what I hear, the CA penal system was going to reserve it for thier absolute worst-of-the-worst. People who killed Spotted Owls, homophobes, people with pistol-gripped semi-auto rifles, and those who are skeptical about global warming...

[Dannyboy]

#2 is the one I question. IF the folks receiving lethal injection DO feel pain, they would not be able to make it obvious because #2 causes a complete paralysis.

Here's the scenario that bugs me:

Condemned gets agent #1 running through his veins. Condemned SEEMS unconscious. Then, they give him #2, causing complete muscle paralysis. What if condemned isn't entirely unconscious? At this point, he/she would not be able indicate pain, and would be unable to draw breath.

Partially conscious and unable to breathe sounds cruel and unusual to me.

I think that's what the judge was think, as well.  That what I gathered from this:  "Fogel found substantial evidence that the last six men executed at San Quentin might have been conscious because they were still breathing when lethal drugs were administered."

[thebaldguy]

A massive overdose of opiates/sodium thiopental might be more humane. If you've ever had surgery, you know what it's like when they put you to sleep. I believe that is how pets are put down.

Remember that lethal injection is popular not because if its benefit to the condemned; it's mentally easier for the officals to administer. It's less gory/messy than electrocution, shooting, beheading, or hanging. Many states also give the condemned sedatives to keep them calm to make the process easier for all involved.

To be honest, I have some issues with the death penalty. There is no doubt in my mind that innocent people have been executed/remain on death row. We cannot trust our governments to spend our tax dollars wisely; how can we trust our governments to make life and death decisions? I cannot accept the fact that innocent people executed are the cost of using the death penalty.

[Iain]

How exactly was the recent Florida execution "botched"??

Missed the vein.

He needed a second dose of the lethal chemicals as the needles were injected straight through his veins and into the flesh of his arms.

Following the autopsy, the medical examiner concluded the injections had been wrongly administered.

He was found to have large chemical burns on both arms and his lawyer reported that the 55-year-old continued to move and mouth words more than 20 minutes after the initial dose.

Inmates are supposed to be rendered unconscious by the chemicals within three to five minutes.

- http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6185007.stm

Heard his lawyer (so perhaps a pinch of salt) say that Diaz was conscious and struggling to breathe twenty minutes in to the procedure. Twenty minutes of consciousness, with chemical burns (and I've experienced misplaced IV lines tissuing nasty painful antibiotics) isn't exactly clean and efficient.

[Standing Wolf]

In my view, the death penalty is a moral statement we, the people make. It's a way of making it abundantly clear certain crimes can not and will not be tolerated.

Of course, moral statements are anathema to leftist extremists, who believe only the state can define values, not people.

Lethal injection has always impressed me as being both much more expensive and far less efficient than simple, old-fashioned hanging, which takes less than a second, and involves the use of a rope that can be reused any number of times.

[mustanger98]

My opinion...

...somebody commits rape or murder or sexually molests a child... hang 'em.

Now, take the case of Timothy McVeigh- he blew up a building and killed 147 (IIRC, +/-) people... some adults and some were innocent kids. He got lethal injection. He took a bomb to all those people and blew 'em up and all he got was to go to sleep. He got off real easy. Way too easy. Now, using a mechanical gallows, he'd have had to stand there with that noose on his neck, sweating, listening to that water drip until it finally dropped the trapdoor out from under him.

Firing squad seems appealing in a good many of these cases we hear about too. 'Least it does to me.

[Cromlech]

The way I see it, if you are going to have capital punishment, the least you could do is have it done humanely, for the benefit of those (admittedly very few) innocent that are executed.

Though to be honest, a single well placed bullet would do the trick. Or maybe a modified defibrillator thingy could be employed. 

[Monkeyleg]

Dogs must be different than humans, because when the vet put my last dog down, she just went to sleep and that was it. One shot.

I favor the death penalty in general, although I think it should be imposed sparingly. An honest-to-goodness life sentence in a maximum security prison is, to me, much more hellish.

There are cases so outrageous, though, like McVeigh or Jeffrey Dahmer, where the public needs to have the convicted executed in order to maintain some sort of societal sensibility.

(Dahmer wasn't executed by the state, but by another prisoner (whose family, I'm betting, was paid well by one of the families of Dahmer's victims).)

[S. Williamson]

(minor nitpick) Timothy McVeigh killed 168 people.



I can't help but ask... why are we so concerned with punishment not being cruel and/or unusual?

[Iain]

8th Amendment.