What if God favors your enemy?

[Jamisjockey]

If god is on their side at least I have the tooth fairy. 

Allies from fairy tales are only good for building morale in the gullible.

I almost snorted coffee out my sinuses. 
I laid down the "Mythology and History of the Jewish people" on my old lady (Born-again Christian) and she almost bitch slapped me.

[brimic]

My God can kick your God's ass.

[CAnnoneer]

"Our God is the real article, your god is a hoax."

[Fly320s]

Well, I must admit that I am surprised with the answers.  I expected more serious, in-depth discussions of religion as a motivation and moral support for man.  You know... deep, serious answers.

Luckily for me, I'm not very serious.  Or deep, really.  And I am surprised (and a little frightened), again, to realize that many of us think alike.  <shudder>   

[CAnnoneer]

"Have another cup of tea, brother, then consider the sound of one hand clapping."

[Perd Hapley]

"Our God is the real article, your god is a hoax." 

Well, yeah.   

[Kaylee]

The question is phrased upside down.

Rather than ask whether God is on our side, we should endeavor to place ourselves on His side.

I daresay at least in the West, we'd see far fewer wars at all that way.

[Perd Hapley]

I daresay we'd see a lot less unpleasantness of many varieties.  I wonder why the question is so often framed  backwards.  I think the answer is that most people asking the question that way haven't thought much about the nature of God and religion.  I think those who take their religion seriously will always be asking whether they are on God's side, in any situation. 

[CAnnoneer]

I've often been accused of pride, yet I am not the one believing the divine (if it exists) would be bothered to be on anybody's side, let alone mine. No more than I would be on the side of this or that anthill in the forest. Neither would I care if this or that ant believed it served me or was on my side. Nor would any shaved ape have an inkling of the divine intention more than an ant would have of mine. 

[Perd Hapley]

What if God is not like you?  Strange thought, I know, but what if God was able to pay attention to all things at all times?  What if He was actually interested in the well-being of every creature He had made? 

[CAnnoneer]

What if God is not like you?  Strange thought, I know, but what if God was able to pay attention to all things at all times?  What if He was actually interested in the well-being of every creature He had made? 

I am not doubting the ability so much as the presence of motivation. There does not seem to be a convincing reason why the divine would "care". Analogy certainly is not guaranteed in its validity as a method in this case, but that's what we seem to be stuck with.

Incidentally, the spirit of your argument goes opposite to the anthropomorphic idea ("made in one's image" and so forth).

[Kaylee]

You didn't make the ants. You have no reason to care.

The very notion of God as Creator implies that God cared enough to create us, and hence has reason to care what our choices may be.
The one follows the other.

 

[CAnnoneer]

The very notion of God as Creator implies that God cared enough to create us, and hence has reason to care what our choices may be.
The one follows the other.

Your body creates millions of new cells, carbon dioxide, perspiration, excrement, etc. every day. Do you consciously care about those things? What if life as we know it is just an unintended or unimportant by-product?

[Len Budney]

You didn't make the ants. You have no reason to care.   

Yep. It's certainly reasonable to suggest (and various scriptures do say) that a creator would regard us as a parent does his children. Incredibly retarded children, compared to the creator, but parents have this weird way of caring even about severely handicapped children.

[Perd Hapley]

There does not seem to be a convincing reason why the divine would "care".

There does not seem to be a convincing reason why the divine would create things about which he does not care.   

Incidentally, the spirit of your argument goes opposite to the anthropomorphic idea ("made in one's image" and so forth).

Being made in the image of God is not anthropomorphic, but deo-morphic.  Gods such as the Greek and Egyptian pantheons are anthropomorphic, in that they behave with all the envy, jealousy, caprice and other lusts as humans do.  Not to mention that they practice sexual reproduction.  Such gods are made in the image of man.  The contention of Judaism and Christianity is that humans are made in the image of God.  This idea is easily misunderstood. 

My argument aligns very well with this deo-morphism.  If a man established a farm, or even built an aquarium, we would expect him to care for all that entails.  We would hold him to a standard of perfection that only a god could truly meet.  If he failed to clean the aquarium on schedule, even once, we would say, "Well, he should have cleaned it, but he's only human."  In other words; he is made in the image of God, but he's not the real deal, so he makes mistakes.  If he let his fish starve, out of mere carelessness, or even failed to plant grass around the farm house, we would recognize this as a defect, a deviation from the ideal of loving care for each detail.  We despise such people because they have failed to fulfill their function, as image-bearers of a God that cares for each detail of His creation. 

[RoadKingLarry]

What if He was actually interested in the well-being of every creature He had made? 

So that would explain childhood cancers and leukemias. Two year olds being scalded to death by the step dad and 4 year olds being raped and murdered by a stranger. Not to mention drunk drivers walking away from wrecks they caused that killed an innocent family of four. Yep pretty interested, if you say so.

[CAnnoneer]

There does not seem to be a convincing reason why the divine would create things about which he does not care. 

We don't care about many things we create, especially without intent or as a by-product. Why would the divine be any different, especially if we are created in its image?  

Being made in the image of God is not anthropomorphic, but deo-morphic. 

If A and B are similar, it seems facetious to say that "A is similar to B" is wrong but "B is similar to A" is right.

My argument aligns very well with this deo-morphism.  If a man established a farm, or even built an aquarium, we would expect him to care for all that entails. 

Who is "we" and do we agree that it is an aquarium created and managed on purpose, instead of divine excrement or by-product?

"Dei-morphic", "aquarium"... I see pride, admittedly a deadly sin.

[Perd Hapley]

What if He was actually interested in the well-being of every creature He had made? 

So that would explain childhood cancers and leukemias. Two year olds being scalded to death by the step dad and 4 year olds being raped and murdered by a stranger. Not to mention drunk drivers walking away from wrecks they caused that killed an innocent family of four. Yep pretty interested, if you say so.

Do you have children? 

[CAnnoneer]

Do you have children? 

Good retort, but RKL is not omnipotent, so he has an excuse.

[Perd Hapley]

CAnnoneer, you keep talking about God creating things as a by-product or excrement, or without intent.  Also, this quotation: 

What if life as we know it is just an unintended or unimportant by-product?

If you believed in such a fumbling God, you might be right.  I was talking about a much more competent diety. 

If A and B are similar, it seems facetious to say that "A is similar to B" is wrong but "B is similar to A" is right.

But we're not talking about mere similarity.  We're talking about degrees of similarity.  Gods who struggle for power, betray and kill one another, and back differing factions of humankind against one another, are simply human beings writ large. 


 

"Dei-morphic", "aquarium"... I see pride, admittedly a deadly sin.

Is this the old argument that the Biblical teaching about being made in God's image is arrogant?  It assumes that the "image-bearing" is not true, and is simply something that religious people want to believe.  It is an unwarranted assumption.  After all, we could be right about God making us in His image.  To the Christian, particularly, it doesn't grant much room for arrogance, considering our belief that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."  We are like Him in some respects, yes, but we are also hopeless rebels against that God-likeness, bound for Hell. 

[Perd Hapley]

Do you have children? 

Good retort, but RKL is not omnipotent, so he has an excuse. 

Not really.  Even if you could, would you shield your child from every hurt they might encounter?  No good parent would be so stiflingly over-protective.  The child would not mature properly. 

In the extreme cases that RKL mentioned, that may seem like a stretch.  But not if one is talking about a God that is omniscient and omnipotent, to use all situations for our good.  If RKL doesn't have faith in God's superior judgment, that is his call.  But many people have undergone horrific pasts, confident that they could not have had the blessings of God without suffering what he allowed them to undergo in earlier life. 

Additionally, God owes no one the slightest protection from the world we have made for ourselves.  God receives the blame for every evil thing that happens to a child, yet none of the credit for the oxygen and food he provides them, the parental love, shelter, warmth, etc. 

[Risasi]

RKL,

Just because God is long suffering and gracious, don't mistake that for lack of care. Where did that ridiculous line "why do bad things happen to good people" come from? The better question would be "why do good things happen to bad people". 



Well, the bible says that our thoughts are not God's thoughts, nor our ways his ways. It also says the heart of man is deceitful above all else.

If true, then assuming then God is always right and I am wrong, and if my heart is deceitful I cannot even be self adjusting in my own flawed thought process. If my thought process is flawed then my observation and conclusion will be flawed.
Therefore I need an outside instrument to calibrate me. (Which according to the bible is itself).

If not, then assuming that the bible is wrong and I am right then why should I pay any attention to it, dying kiddies, or this discussion? I might as well go kick puppies, start my own despotic country and eat, drink and be merry. Live it up....




Fortunately the bible says that not only did the Lord Jesus Christ create everything, but they also consist (are held together) by him. Therefore one can make arrogant statements about God without fear of going fissionable.




Back on topic; if God favors your enemy I think that means you are a Palastinian... 

[thebaldguy]

"Gott mit uns" (German; God is with us) was on belt buckles of some German millitary dress in WW2. I'm guessing that some of the leaders of WW2 Germany believed they were doing the correct thing in the eyes of God. South African leaders felt the same way; they are in charge because God wants us to be in charge here. Europeans that came to America sometimes considered natives "Godless heathens". There are lots of other examples involving royalty; the Czar of Russia and the King/Queen of England. Oh, and the Emperor of Japan was God on earth as well. I should point out that the exact opposite has also occurred; think about China, Russia, and other hard line communist countries. Their non belief of God was their permission to do as they saw fit.

I always found it interesting that people used God as a war rally. Especially when unleashing death and destruction on another group fighting for their God. Maybe this shows that there is no God.

[Phyphor]

The question is phrased upside down.

Rather than ask whether God is on our side, we should endeavor to place ourselves on His side.

I daresay at least in the West, we'd see far fewer wars at all that way.

Can I please use that as a sig?

[Archie]

Fistful and others have it right.  God, the Creator and Sustainer of the Universe, has His own agenda.  We are with Him, if any 'alliance' exists.  If God seems to favor the enemy, one should carefully re-evaluate his beliefs.  Another thing to consider is God's purposes are not always - seldom in fact - consistant with those of humans.  God makes victory out of what appears to be defeat.  I can win by dying.  That is counterintuitive, I agree, but it's true nonetheless.

Cannoneer.  Man was created in God's image by God.  However, man is a flawed copy due to man's choices.  Yes, God is similar to man, just as the original is similar to a fifth generation Xerox copy.

Yes, mankind has used 'gods' as excuses for all manner of evil doings.  Does that make God responsible?  That's like blaming the Denver mint for counterfieting.