Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: PTK on March 28, 2011, 12:12:47 AM
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Today, I traded my Cz82 straight across for a NIB Taurus 3" chamber, 3" barrel blued Judge. I did try to tell him it wasn't a good deal for him, but... some people... after he bought the Judge, people told him it was loud, weak, and useless, so he tucked it away and didn't use it. Traded it at a huge loss, as they go for ~$500 NIB here, while Cz82s are about $220.
I thought for sure I'd use it a few times and sell it at a profit, but after putting a mix of 200 various rounds I had laying around through it (all .410, I don't have any .45 colt), I'm hooked.
Here's a rundown of the ammo I tried:
Federal .410 2-1/2", 4 000 buck (handgun ammo)
Federal .410 3", 9 4 buck (handgun ammo)
Golden Bear (I know, I know) .410 3" 4 buck, unknown number of pellets but probably 9 or 10
Remington .410 3", #4 birdshot
Remington .410 3", #6 birdshot
Winchester .410 3", 5 000 buck
Winchester .410 3", #6 birdshot
Winchester .410 2-1/2", #8 birdshot
The birdshot of all types resulted in a huge muzzle blast, massive concussion, and very little damage to the target. The Golden Bear had a similarly huge blast and concussion, but significantly more target damage - however, the brass plated steel was quite hard to extract from the cylinder, as I had predicted.
The Winchester 000 buck was very disappointing - huge muzzle blast and concussion, VERY little damage to the target. I'll keep it around for my M6 survival 22/410, nothing else. It worked much better out of the longer barrel.
The Federal handgun .410, however, was amazing - the recoil was still there, the sound was around the same as a .45 colt out of a 7" barrel (much quieter than any of the other ammo I tried), and the muzzle blast was practically nonexistent. I fired this at night, barely an hour ago, and there was essentially ZERO muzzle flash. The pellets from the #4 were, as I expected, all over the target at 10 yards, but the pellets from the 000 buck were in a nice 8" circle, time and again, basically centered on point of aim.
Taurus finally made something that didn't suck. Good. =)
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Ditch the shot shells and fire some slugs through the Judge. Particularly either Golden or Silver Bear.
Obviously they are not going to do as much as if coming out of a longer barrel, but you should be pleased with the results out of even that short barrel.
I'm still not sure what problem the Judge solved, but think it might have been the absence of .410 ammo. =D
stay safe.
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Er, why use a light slug? 4 pellets 000 buck is much heavier.
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You're really better off just using 45lc rounds for defense and just leave the .410 shells for fun or blasting snakes.
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Yes, that's what I heard. However, that information is far, far outdated now that there is .410 ammo specifically made for the shorter barrel. Not only that, but a lot of what people think is "proof" that the .410 ammo is junk out of the Judge is Box of Truth and similar - that used cut-down 000 buckshot shells, but "they should work the same" ;/ Not scientific, not even a fair test. I can't use .454, so I'll cut it open, empty some powder, and re-seat the bullet half-assed. Should work the same, though. *pop* Oh, man, the .454 sucks! :lol:
I'll be doing gel tests this week, but I expect, based on what the 000 buck Federal ammo did to 1" marine plywood, that the results will be MUCH better than any of the ammo designed for 20" barrels.
Combine the fact that there's now high-payload ammo for the shorter barrel with the fact that .45 Colt tends to keyhole in these due to massive length of freebore in the cylinder, and I think I'd rather stick with the 000 buck. Until I do the gel testing, however, you won't find me keeping it for defense. ;)
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Er, why use a light slug? 4 pellets 000 buck is much heavier.
Take a 1 pound sand bag, and throw it as hard as you can at someone's chest.
Take a 3/4 pound rock, and throw it as hard as you can at someone's chest.
The sand will hit and shift/splash in the bag. The guy you hit will say "ow!"
The rock will hit and crush the sternum. The guy you hit will have troubled respiration.
Same principle with shot versus slugs.
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Except for the fact that the buck is coming out faster because it was made for a shorter barrel. ;)
Not only that, if what you said is true, why isn't everyone just using .22 super high velocity for SD?
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Except for the fact that the buck is coming out faster because it was made for a shorter barrel. ;)
Not only that, if what you said is true, why isn't everyone just using .22 super high velocity for SD?
???
My argument is for CONJOINED mass. Not for velocity or separate smaller masses.
Small shot does the same thing as fragmenting rounds. Penetrates shallow.
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Ohhh, I get it, sorry, still waking up and doing ten things at once. :)
Yep, I expect that each 000 buck pellet would go between 7-12" deep. Still, half an ounce or greater, versus 1/5 ounce, same velocity. I'd rather have the half an ounce. ;)
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Ohhh, I get it, sorry, still waking up and doing ten things at once. :)
Yep, I expect that each 000 buck pellet would go between 7-12" deep. Still, half an ounce or greater, versus 1/5 ounce, same velocity. I'd rather have the half an ounce. ;)
.410 slugs should be 1/4 ounce, not 1/5th.
Yes, in the grand scheme of things that's not much difference. Do your gelatin tests and get back to us. Also do the math to derive ft/lbs of energy.
If that does not work for you, look at whitetail deer taken with a .410 - slugs out to 75 yards consistently and 000 buck at under 25 yards. But the buckshot load is heavier (total mass) than the slug. so how come the difference? As AZRehawk44 descrbed things.
stay safe.
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I wouldn't get the 410 Judge, I would get the .28 gauge. ... I just have no idea why. :lol:
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I wouldn't get the 410 Judge, I would get the .28 gauge. ... I just have no idea why. :lol:
How big would the bore for .28 gauge be? Gotta be over two inches...
And 410 caliber would be 4.1 inches or so...
I think that counts as light artillery. An actual hand cannon.
You seem to have misplaced your decimal marker there. ;)
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How big would the bore for .28 gauge be? Gotta be over two inches...
And 410 caliber would be 4.1 inches or so...
I think that counts as light artillery.
You seem to have misplaced your decimal marker there. ;)
I thought when you got to those sizes "caliber" was barrel length divided by bore diameter (if I remember what the Navy guys tried to explain to us Gyrenes). So we need to know how long the tube is.
stay safe.
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The 28ga has a bore dia over .50 and the Raging Judge was rifled. So it was automatically a Destructive Device. Taurus could have made it smoothbore and transfer on a $5 AOW stamp, but it was just a stunt to generate buzz at SHOT. Some say to play sour grapes to S&W who decided to copy them.
I think the 28ga Raging Judge even left the show early because of the questions about it's legality. Or the ATF actually stopped by and said "Uh... how about 'No.'"
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that was .28GA :O
yeah, a typo. but it was a funny one. [popcorn]
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Well, there we are. I tested the Judge with various ammo on some ballistic gelatin. My suspicion was correct - the 4 pellet 000 buck Federal "handgun" load penetrated between 15 and 18 inches, with two pellets going through-and-through the second block. Those two pellets have, at the minimum, 18" penetration.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg33.imageshack.us%2Fimg33%2F5676%2Fgeljudge1jpg.jpg&hash=1e6b73f99b8a6260aeaa162f884fac6b770277cb)
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg690.imageshack.us%2Fimg690%2F8863%2Fgeljudge2.jpg&hash=f742f00435d8ba046f5dcc8e4391a068ea4afd1c)
The Judge is a joke. Right. 18"+ penetration with 000 buck. Some joke. ;)
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Wow. Thanks so much for the gelatin report.
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Help me here, does this dispel our view that the Judge sucks?
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It might, it might not - there are some serious haters of the Judge on here. What it does do is make me feel perfectly fine keeping my Judge loaded with that specific ammo for HD and SD for my Jeep. 18"+ of penetration is more than enough for SD. :)
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I think part of it is the reaction to the advertising. It does okay, but not necessarily better than other pistols that shoot pistol ammo only.
Also, what is the shot spread at 10 yards or more? How many pellets would hit?
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Help me here, does this dispel our view that the Judge sucks?
You can kill a lot of things, not just humans, with a .22LR. Just about any firearm is plenty lethal under ideal circumstances. Some weapons/calibers just happen to be better designed for killing folks than others. Folks argue that the Judge's design is far from optimal against people.
The Judge has an iffy reputation because of overhype and the fact that it is designed to meet US firearm laws. .410 wasn't exactly designed to be used on humans.
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Help me here, does this dispel our view that the Judge sucks?
It's not a bad idea, if you're willing to ignore its incredibly long cylinder and don't plan on trying to hit anything beyond 7-10 yards. :D
It's a neat novelty item to me and I wouldn't mind owning one just to dink around with some day. I do object, however, to the marketing behind it.
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Looks like you were shooting point-blank to me, and what about clothing?
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You'll never be happy, will you? :lol:
Anyway, I'll be doing more testing as money allows. Gelatin isn't cheap.
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You'll never be happy, will you? :lol:
Anyway, I'll be doing more testing as money allows. Gelatin isn't cheap.
And you didn't answer my questions. :lol:
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PTK: Thanks for the gelatin testing. That's something a lot of Judge-detractors haven't produced....
Just saw this article on a FB link....note the new SD round from Cross Outdoors....may solve some of the Taurus' accuracy problems in a particularly interesting way.....
http://www.shootingillustrated.com/9240/inside-the-judges-chamber (http://www.shootingillustrated.com/9240/inside-the-judges-chamber)
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The Judge has never been a "bad" self defense gun since you can always use 45 Colt rounds in it which will get the job done. I had just questioned how great 410 shot shells of any type are for self defense. It sounds like there are some that are designed for pistols that can be adequate for self defense at least at short range though I have heard the spread at any sort of range makes significant hits less likely.
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I think part of it is the reaction to the advertising. It does okay, but not necessarily better than other pistols that shoot pistol ammo only.
Also, what is the shot spread at 10 yards or more? How many pellets would hit?
1. The judge is the most wildly inefficient handgun platform for the .45Colt that comes to mind. Taurus has made .45Colt revolvers that are much more handy in the past. I loved me those titanium .45 Colt snubbies. ANd the .41mag version.
2. The .410 round is its reason for being and the .410 requirements why it is such a brick.
3. If one is to use .410 for SD, it makes eminent sense to determine how much of the .410 payload can, under ideal circumstances, stay on target at reasonable SD ranges. And how much penetration that fraction can manage, as buckshot shed velocity PDQ.
4. As a recreational gun, I am sure it is a hoot. As a SD gun, it has serious flaws.
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Would a .410 slug round be more or less powerful than a standard .45 Colt?
Will the Judge handle "Ruger Only" .45 Colt rounds?
I've never seen it as anything much more than a snake gun. Out here we have snakes and a lot of things worse than snakes. =(
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Would a .410 slug round be more or less powerful than a standard .45 Colt?
The slug is way less powerful what with it being only 90 grains or so.
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. . . The Judge is a joke. Right. 18"+ penetration with 000 buck. Some joke. ;)
I don't think anyone has said the .410 out of a handgun is harmless - it clearly can be lethal. I've stated before that I wouldn't volunteer to stand in front of one even if it were loaded with birdshot.
But some of us have reservations about its dependability in stopping a determined bad guy with any .410 shell, and believe there are better rounds in better packages for that task.
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Will the Judge handle "Ruger Only" .45 Colt rounds?
Absolutely not....the general consensus is to treat the Judge like you would a Colt SAA and load accordingly...
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But some of us have reservations about its dependability in stopping a determined bad guy with any .410 shell, and believe there are better rounds in better packages for that task.
But it's a shotgun!
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I won't say it's useless. I will say I fail to see any advantage whatsoever over a standard revolver, and a number of ways it is inferior. I just don't get why, other than "just because" or "why not."
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And you didn't answer my questions. :lol:
Ten feet, bare gelatin, and to answer your next questions, 10% gel, 3.75" @ 588 fps. ;)
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But some of us have reservations about its dependability in stopping a determined bad guy with any .410 shell, and believe there are better rounds in better packages for that task.
I have similar reservations about FMJ in most calibers. ;)
In all seriousness though, the general thought that because not all .410 will work for SD, the idea of a .410 SD gun is negative, is incorrect. If you followed that, I halfway didn't... Anyway, what I'm saying is use the right rounds, it's plenty powerful. Use the wrong rounds, and with basically any gun, it won't work as well. I know I sure as heck don't carry whatever FMJ ammo I can find for SD - I carry top-shelf SD HPs.
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Would a .410 slug round be more or less powerful than a standard .45 Colt?
Will the Judge handle "Ruger Only" .45 Colt rounds?
Less powerful, and no.
Also, if you're ever in/around Bozeman/Belgrade/Manhattan, give me a PM. I've no problem with letting you try my Judge at the local range, if you'd like. :)
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Ten feet, bare gelatin, and to answer your next questions, 10% gel, 3.75" @ 588 fps. ;)
Seven yards, with one layer of heavy Denim, and I will concede. Not otherwise.
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Done and done. This time next week, I'll have done more gel tests. So, 21', one layer of duck (a bit heavier than denim, and I have some laying around - think tan/brown Carhartt clothes, that's duck), and of course 10% gel, calibrated, and videotaped. Sound good? :)
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Less powerful, and no.
Also, if you're ever in/around Bozeman/Belgrade/Manhattan, give me a PM. I've no problem with letting you try my Judge at the local range, if you'd like. :)
Thanks.
Actually, if I want to try one then I could just ask the neighbor lady who carries one for snake protection.
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One further thought . . . penetration alone is not an indicator of what kind of "stopper" the round is. 9mm FMJ and 110 grain .30 Carbine FMJ both have good penetration, but neither round is regarded as a "stopper."
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Ten feet, bare gelatin, and to answer your next questions, 10% gel, 3.75" @ 588 fps. ;)
Not enough detail.....you also need to tell us what you were wearing and if you were thinking of AJ at the time.....
=D
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Ten feet, bare gelatin, and to answer your next questions, 10% gel, 3.75" @ 588 fps. ;)
Temp? Barometer? Humidity?
C'mon, what are you trying to hide? ;)
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Temp? Barometer? Humidity?
C'mon, what are you trying to hide? ;)
Not to mention that he is completely glossing over any gravimetric variations in his area.
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But what about the phase of the moon and the relation of Saturn's orbit to that of Uranus??? Clearly homework and due diligence were not done here.
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It seems clear enough to me that he was bought off by Taurus and is now nothing more than a damn shill.
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I bet he picks the NRA Gun of the Year, too.
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I've been underwhelmed with the few Taurus products I've come across - a company with its issues really needs something other than a bull for a mascot.
Thing with the judge is, this is about the most glowing review I've seen, and the performance isn't that impressive. Maybe Jim march can come along and make a semi auto version for us.
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You'll never be happy, will you? :lol:
Anyway, I'll be doing more testing as money allows. Gelatin isn't cheap.
Thanks for the test. I know the initial investment for gel is expensive and that it's time and refrigerator space consuming, but can't you melt it down and use it again?
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Indeed I could, but then it wouldn't be a very good test... heating it over 115F or so makes it form a different structure than cold water as per normal routine. It's not really a good idea to reuse, but I do indeed melt it down and use it for other purposes. :)
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It's not really a good idea to reuse, but I do indeed melt it down and use it for other purposes. :)
OMGpleaseIdontwannaknow!!! :O
DD
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...because using old ballistic gelatin for knife testing is so horrible? ;)
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...because using old ballistic gelatin for knife testing is so horrible? ;)
... and that's a euphemism for what?
DD
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;/
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Seven yards, with one layer of heavy Denim, and I will concede. Not otherwise.
For giggles, what caliber, barrel length, and loading do you use for SD? I'd like to see what they do under similar conditions (the Federal 000 buck load and your preferred carry load out of a similar barrel length if I can)
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.... and the performance isn't that impressive.
*sputters drink* Wait, what? Achieving 15 inches minimum penetration with four .36 caliber projectiles all at once isn't that impressive?
...... *thinks a moment*
Okay, I know I'm taking a few steps down on the argument pyramid by addressing the authority of a speaker rather than the substance of their 'argument', but I'm going to do it anyways as said 'argument' has failed to present any supporting evidence itself in its address to the substantial supporting evidence that it purports to rebut.
De Selby, have you ever actually shot the Judge yourself, or conducted any sort of reasonably professional testing regarding the lethality of any sort of ammunition before that would give credence to the claim that the above ammunition performance would be considered mediocre? In short I want to know if your position is arrived at through reasoned deduction (and see the logical process there-of with empirical evidence supporting) or if it's merely emotional or instinctual (you feel the Judge sucks, or someone told you that it does and their statement seems right).
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http://mcb-homis.com/judge/
http://www.survivalreviews.com/index.php/reviews/reviewsguns/154-taurus
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KGB, it's pretty simple - there are lots of platforms (of more handy shape & size) that can deliver four equal or larger holes just as easily. Most of those will even make expanding projectiles available. They also give several times the range. That's why I'm not going to buy a judge to try, even on the off chance I get a magic judge that vastly outperforms all the others.
All that's needed to get there is common sense - a compact model glock delivers better concealability, just as many holes (with bigger projectiles), and longer range.
Then there's also the issue of all the bad reviews out there.
You might want to consider that I'm not the only one here who came to this conclusion about the gun too.
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...because using old ballistic gelatin for knife testing is so horrible? ;)
How do you do test knives with gelatin, isn't it kinda soft?
I'm in "non-snark" mode BTW.
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It is indeed softer than I'd like, yes, but... meat is more expensive, the gelatin does well enough to get an idea how the knife will perform, and there's really no other use for it. :)
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It is indeed softer than I'd like, yes, but... meat is more expensive, the gelatin does well enough to get an idea how the knife will perform, and there's really no other use for it. :)
There's always room for Jello. =D
So stuff like Janich does on Best Defense? That makes sense.
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I have no idea who Janich is, or what she does on Best Defense. Sorry. :)
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I have no idea who Janich is, or what she does on Best Defense. Sorry. :)
She's the male pattern baldest knife instructor on tv is who. ;)
Seriously, what sort of testing do you do?
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Ah, I didn't know who he was. Anyway, I just do slashing, stabbing tests, usually with old bones and such put in the mold at various points, too, just for laughs. Most impressive so far was the little 12" overall khukuri that went through the 9" tall block, bones and all, and then stuck in the scrap wood table underneath. About an inch and a half in, too. :O
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Good deal.
You'd probably appreciate his knife stuff. He's an (insert any number of Filipino arts here) instructor who has an integrated basic HTH technique that integrates a blade easily.
Uses meat on sticks with cloths on it to show how to execute real disabling "stab and rake" strikes to immobilize arms and take out legs via muscle/tendon distruction so you can get away.
He's on my list of guys to train with.
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I don't quite get all the hate and adoration the Judge inspires. It doesn't strike me as a better SD gun than other options, but so what? Not all guns have to be used strictly for SD. I just dropped of a vintage S&W 32-20 at Alphaprecision for a rebuild. Of my collection, that gun is one of the less useful guns, but I still like it.
As a snake gun, I'm sure it'll do the job, but I killed a 4' rattlesnake from a few feet away with 38special snake shot. One shot nearly took its head off. If he had been backed up by a large predator, I still had 5 shots of 180gr XTP at 1300fps to launch.
It doesn't fill a niche for me, but I'm sure one could have fun with it. At the end of the day, if a gun isn't "fun", I won't buy it anyway, regardless of its abilities. For every "business" shot I take, I fire hundreds of rounds for "fun".
Chris
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Yep. I fall much in the same camp for the judge as Chris. I don't get it, but the deep rooted bashing is a head scratcher, too. Not a fan, wouldn't buy one for myself or recommend it to someone who asks me what they should look at. Wouldn't want to be on the business end of one, either.
The consistient bashing thats going on here is starting to grate on my nerves, though. Once you say your piece against it, we heard you.
Enough already.
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Shotshells?
Pistol?
Meet me at station 7.
My dad fell for the eleventybillion dollar marketing campaign.
Imagine Taurus investing the same in QA/QC.
I hold no real opinion on his choice - His coin, he can do what he wants with it.
He's got Beretta semis, several S&W and Colt wheelguns, heck he may even have a 1911 somewhere in there,
but after a while the Judge was retired and replaced with a Ruger .357 for carry.
One day while tuning my frankenAR at the sand pit, he approached me with it.
Like a doper grinning on the corner outside the liquor store on Saturday night -
"Wanna try a hit? It's fun."
I followed my gut and turned it down.
I just have no desire to drop the hammer on a Judge.
Like a ++++P+P+P+ loaded, 1 7/8" titanium .44 magnum- No desire whatsoever. =|
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...
One day while tuning my frankenAR at the sand pit, he approached me with it.
Like a doper grinning on the corner outside the liquor store on Saturday night -
"Wanna try a hit? It's fun."
I followed my gut and turned it down.
I just have no desire to drop the hammer on a Judge.
Like a ++++P+P+P+ loaded, 1 7/8" titanium .44 magnum- No desire whatsoever. =|
C'mon, the first loading is free...... =D
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My dad got me to try his Judge. I didn't hate it, but wasn't particularly impressed, either. I like my .44 Special Bulldog better.
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Seven yards, with one layer of heavy Denim, and I will concede. Not otherwise.
For giggles, what caliber, barrel length, and loading do you use for SD? I'd like to see what they do under similar conditions (the Federal 000 buck load and your preferred carry load out of a similar barrel length if I can)
Bueller? Bueller? ;)
Seriously, though - I'd like to compare what you carry for SD to the Judge.
Also, car maintenance among other things, gel testing is delayed but still planned for the coming days/week. :)
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A friend of mine just bought the Public Defender, and fired it for the first time last night. He called me, all giddy-like, and said it was such fun to shoot and I had to try it. Then he said he had just purchased an NIB Browning 12 gauge over-under. I'm eager to try them both.
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One of CSD's links noted something a lot of other reviews have also noted: 00/000 buck getting squashed down to flat ~.452" disks.
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One of CSD's links noted something a lot of other reviews have also noted: 00/000 buck getting squashed down to flat ~.452" disks.
Let me elaborate:
They are getting squashed before they leave the bbl. CSD's link is the first I saw where they squashed to the point where they swaged the rifling in the rim of the disks.
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Yep, those aren't hard enough. The Federal loads don't flatten. :)
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so a pistol so deadly it turns buckshot into dumdum bullets. [tinfoil]
lets hope kaos doesn't find out about this. :laugh:
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so a pistol so deadly it turns buckshot into dumdum bullets. [tinfoil]
A religious leader so powerful, he cures a ham.
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Let me elaborate:
They are getting squashed before they leave the bbl. CSD's link is the first I saw where they squashed to the point where they swaged the rifling in the rim of the disks.
What about the Judge causes this that doesn't happen in a traditional .410 shotgun? Or does it?
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What about the Judge causes this that doesn't happen in a traditional .410 shotgun? Or does it?
That's a good question. They were using standard buck, not Judge-designed.
I wonder if the first ball gets a little drag when it hits the rifling, just enough to allow the free-boring second pellet behind it to catch up and mush, which then snags even more of the rifling slowing it down even more, which results in third pellet hitting it even harder.
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That's a good question. They were using standard buck, not Judge-designed.
I wonder if the first ball gets a little drag when it hits the rifling, just enough to allow the free-boring second pellet behind it to catch up and mush, which then snags even more of the rifling slowing it down even more, which results in third pellet hitting it even harder.
I would think it would be sorta more efficient to cast bullets in a mold instead of a barrel =|
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I would think it would be sorta more efficient to cast bullets in a mold instead of a barrel =|
Meh. You say to-may-to...
;)
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I would think it would be sorta more efficient to cast bullets in a mold instead of a barrel =|
Well, yeah. But this looks like swaging, so perhaps they are on to something. :laugh:
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If The Judge is changing the shape of its projectiles, should we call it The Activist Judge?
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Judge Extrudy?
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If The Judge is changing the shape of its projectiles, should we call it The Activist Judge?
Lead-gi-swaging from the bench.
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Lead-gi-swaging from the bench.
*gigglesnort*