Author Topic: MTB shopping  (Read 6441 times)

cosine

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« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2006, 09:12:40 AM »
These threads are great! Especially when you guys start showing up with pictures.

Edit: Decided to check here one more time before I left - had some monster spelling errors.
Andy

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« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2006, 09:20:34 AM »
If I get out to Fountainhead this weekend, I'll try to take pics with my crappy digicam.  

Here's some info: http://www.singletracks.com/php/trail.php?id=524
http://www.dirtworld.com/trails/trail.asp?id=737&trail_name=Fountain%20Head%20Park%20Mountain%20Bike%20Trail
http://www.more-mtb.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1214

Any comments that say it's less than 8miles are dated.  I rode the trail last weekend and it came up to 8.25miles.  They've increased the size of the loop.  When I first rode there back in 97ish, it was a mere 4 miles.  It's a total B***H when wet.  Because of the thick forest (with almost total canopy) and lake right next to the park, when it rains, the trail stays wet for days.  I've riden it on a fully rigid bike before.  The only thing you really need are great tires and brakes.  

None of the climbs are very long, but you have to contend with many rocks, roots, and erosion control devices.  Those same obstacles exist on the downhill portions.  Shock-A-Billy isn't bad as long as there's not a lot of powder on it (which there isn't if it has rained in the past week or two).  I came down it one time and my wheel got sucked into a hole filled with clay powder.  Needless to say, I went airborne.

Chris

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« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2006, 05:10:26 PM »
Here's a pic of me crossing a log on a trail near Reston, Va in 1998 (same bike I have now):



Chris

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« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2006, 05:59:10 PM »
I went into the local bike shop last fall to buy a new mountain bike.  Walked out empty handed.

My idea of a propper mountain bike doesn't include heavy, unreliable, gadgety crap like hydraulic brakes and rear suspensions.  I'm sure that stuff would be useful if you're into bombing down steep and rocky inclines at stupid speeds.  But I managed to ride stupid without all that crap, back when I was young and still living in the mountains.  

I rode an all-steel Gary fisher, which worked just fine.  Still does.  So what's the point?

There's a good quote that sums up my thoughts nicely.  I forget exactly how it goes, but it's something like this:  
"The machine isn't perfect when there is nothing more to be added.  It's perfect when there is nothing more that can be removed without destroying its functionality."

Does anyone still make mountain bikes that are simple, clean, lightweight, sturdy, without all that gimmicky crap?

mtnbkr

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« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2006, 06:21:35 PM »
Build a singlespeed.  I've been tempted to do the dame.  First though, I need to get back in shape.

There appears to be a movement that is sort of a backlash against overly complex bikes.  Singlespeed bikes are part of that.  

Klein still makes a nice clean bike, but they do use front suspension and disk brakes.  Not that I consider either technology bad in any way...  Be prepared to pay though.  A Klein frame is nearly $900.  A complete bike is $1500 IIRC.  

Personally, I wouldn't call hydraulic brakes or rear suspension "gadgets".  Hydraulic brakes (in the form of cantilever brakes originally) have been around since the late 80s at least.  They always worked well, but were heavy and expensive.  Racers didn't use them because of the weight and amateurs couldn't afford them.  Properly designed rear suspension is nice, but the problem is that the "freeride" and "downhill" cliques are taking it in the wrong direction.  Since weight doesn't matter to those folks, we're STILL seeing 30lb FS bikes.  FS bikes were as light as 27lbs as far back as the late 90s.  Hell, companies like Moots made pseudo-FS bikes (a shock in the seatstayes, but no hinge on the chainstays, used chainstay flex instead) that were almost as light as mid-weight hardtails.

Chris

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« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2006, 08:04:06 PM »
I've thought about turning my old Fisher into a singlespeed.  But given the bike's age and components, there's really no easy way to do it.  It wouldn't be worth the cost.  Maybe if I had a nicer frame it would make more sense.

I've always thought it would be cool to turn it into a three speed bike, by dumping the rear derailer and cassette and keeping the front derailer and chainrings.  But there would be issues with chain length wihtout the rear derailer to take up the slack.

I really need a new mountain bike, but I haven't found one that I like.  Maybe I'm just being too crotchety.  I dunno.

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« Reply #31 on: June 08, 2006, 08:30:07 PM »
Quote from: Headless Thompson Gunner
I've always thought it would be cool to turn it into a three speed bike, by dumping the rear derailer and cassette and keeping the front derailer and chainrings.  But there would be issues with chain length wihtout the rear derailer to take up the slack.
There used to be a device to facilitate this.  

You could also keep the derailleur and use the travel adjustment screws to lock it into one position.  It would be heavy for it's function, but would give you the slack control you need.

Chris

MillCreek

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« Reply #32 on: June 09, 2006, 05:29:22 AM »
I have had a FS MTB for about two years now, to supplement my hardtail.  In the wet and muddy Pacific Northwest, I have become a fan of disc brakes.  I use Avid mechanicals since they are a lot less fussy than hydraulics.  

Realizing that almost all bike frames these days are built in the same three factories in Taiwan (and often the complete bikes are assembled there), I buy strictly on components these days.  I do about 80% of my own wrenching, so buying a bike off the Net and assembling and fitting it to myself is not a problem.  Although the OCP over at bikeforums would shoot me for saying this, take a look at www.bikesdirect.com and www.ibexbikes.com to see if they have anything that meets your needs.  If you require fitting and technical support, then going to a local bike store is the way to go.  But if you can assemble and fit your own bike, or pay a bike store $ 50-75 to do it, you can save a lot of money by buying off the Net.  You can get a decent, but not pro race quality, FS MTB with discs for that $ 1000 figure.

PS:  I forgot to mention that a friend of mine at work recently bought a Fezzari FS MTB at costco.com for $ 850.  The Abajo something.  He is a more technical rider than I am (Ever since crashing my MTB in 1997 and fracturing my left hip, I am more cautious these days) and seems to like his bike pretty well.
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

mtnbkr

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« Reply #33 on: June 09, 2006, 07:20:19 AM »
I just came back from the bike shop and saw a nifty bike: Surly Pugsley.  It's not a bike I'd want for general riding, but I think it would be fun for backcountry exploring or winter riding.  It has some really well thought out features that make sense for a trekking bike, such as using "rear" wheels as the front as well.  You can even put a cassette on the front wheel, giving you either a spare or a different gearing option (say a 13-32 on one wheel and 12-26 on the other).  It has no suspension other than the 3.7" tires.  It has platform pedals and uses bar end shifters converted to thumbshifters.  To me, it looks like they gave thought to any system that could fail in the backcountry.  It uses disk brakes, but has cantilever bosses.  Assuming the diskbrake cables could be rerouted to cantilever brakes with minimal work, that too would make a killer secondary system.  It's a pig, but it's a special purpose pig.  Neat bike!

From the following webpage: Who should ride Pugsley? Hunters of all types (animal, mineral, or vegetable)...

Emphasis mine.  I like them even more!

http://www.surlybikes.com/pugsley.html

Chris

Jamisjockey

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« Reply #34 on: June 09, 2006, 08:11:01 AM »
Quote from: Headless Thompson Gunner
I rode an all-steel Gary fisher, which worked just fine.  Still does.  So what's the point?

There's a good quote that sums up my thoughts nicely.  I forget exactly how it goes, but it's something like this:  
"The machine isn't perfect when there is nothing more to be added.  It's perfect when there is nothing more that can be removed without destroying its functionality."

Does anyone still make mountain bikes that are simple, clean, lightweight, sturdy, without all that gimmicky crap?
Technology marches forward.  The 1911 replaced the peacemaker.  
There are plent of mountain bikes out there made with only a front suspension fork, rim brakes, and intuitive shifters.  There are plenty of good bikes with all the "gadgets", though.
 You are being crotchety.  
Tongue
JD

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Jamisjockey

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« Reply #35 on: June 09, 2006, 08:12:36 AM »
Re: Surlybikes
This is my Surly Crosscheck



In action:
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

mtnbkr

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« Reply #36 on: June 09, 2006, 08:29:58 AM »
Silly cross-geeks always carrying your bikes.  Don't you know you're supposed to RIDE them? Wink

Actually, I've been known to run with my bike during races when I can run over the terrain faster than I can ride it.

Chris

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« Reply #37 on: June 09, 2006, 11:14:27 AM »
Quote from: JamisJockey
Quote from: Headless Thompson Gunner
I rode an all-steel Gary fisher, which worked just fine.  Still does.  So what's the point?

There's a good quote that sums up my thoughts nicely.  I forget exactly how it goes, but it's something like this:  
"The machine isn't perfect when there is nothing more to be added.  It's perfect when there is nothing more that can be removed without destroying its functionality."

Does anyone still make mountain bikes that are simple, clean, lightweight, sturdy, without all that gimmicky crap?
Technology marches forward.  The 1911 replaced the peacemaker.  
There are plent of mountain bikes out there made with only a front suspension fork, rim brakes, and intuitive shifters.  There are plenty of good bikes with all the "gadgets", though.
 You are being crotchety.  
Tongue
No doubt I am being crotchety, but that's besides the point.  

Tthe bikes you mention tend to be cheap and built with flimsy components.  Their suspensions are too heavy, too fragile, and have way more travel than is necessary.  They're marketed at college kids who want to ride around campus, not for serious riding and serious riders.

The second type are the current state-of-the-art mountain bikes, with all that modern complexity and gadgetry.  Very cool stuff.  But let's be honest, they're overkill for the average rider.  They weigh too much, cost too much, and are only necessary for the for the extreme fringe of mountain bikers.

I want a third type of bike, something clean, simple, and sturdy.  The front suspension only needs about 2 inches of travel, just enough to soak up the sharp blows.  It shouldn't weigh more than 2 pounds.  No rear suspension, but the frame must be able to soften up the bumps.  Rim brakes are good enough, while being sturdier and lighter than disk brakes.  9 or 10 speed rear cassettes and shifters are the wrong idea - someone should design a 5 speed system that's smaller, lighter, and more reliable.  The rest of the components should be high quality and light weight.  The whole bike should be built to last 10 years of serious riding, it isn't the kind of bike that gets replaced every season.

I won't hold my breath waiting for that kinda bike to show up.

MillCreek

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« Reply #38 on: June 09, 2006, 12:22:43 PM »
Speaking of using the words 'crotchety' and 'bicycles' in the same sentence, I feel exactly the same way about the dearth of decent commuting bikes in this country.  They are as common as dirt over in Europe but other than the Breezer and a few other models, you just cannot find them here.  I was looking at an almost perfect commuter bike, but it was built in Germany, and with the Euro exchange rate, shipping and customs, it would have cost slightly over $ 3200 to arrive at my doorstep.  Admittedly, I would want something with an aluminum frame, Rohloff or Nexus internal hub, dynamo lighting, 700c wheels and disc brakes, and I could find nothing with these specs in the USA.  But for $ 3, I wonder if I could get some custom titanium build out for that.  In Europe, you can find many such bikes to my specs and they cost around $ 1500 to $ 2000.  A very few people are importing them here, but they cost upwards of $ 3000.
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

Jamisjockey

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« Reply #39 on: June 09, 2006, 03:33:02 PM »
Quote
I won't hold my breath waiting for that kinda bike to show up.
We'll have to agree to disagree.  I think the modern $500 to $1500 range hard tail bikes fit pretty much what you describe, but if that's not enough bike to meet your definitions maybe you're living a pipe dream.... Tongue

Millcreek:
Get yourself a surly.  Seriously.
http://www.surlybicycles.com
My crosscheck is a great multipurpose bike with gussets for racks and everything.  Build it exactly as you see fit.  Its a steel frame, but that will give you a better ride under load.  You won't get everything you're after in a commuter, but it'll do the trick, for alot less than 3k.....
JD

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mtnbkr

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« Reply #40 on: June 09, 2006, 05:41:32 PM »
Quote
The front suspension only needs about 2 inches of travel, just enough to soak up the sharp blows.  It shouldn't weigh more than 2 pounds.
Currently, the shortest forks I'm aware of are 80mm, about 3".  They are much more reliable and deliver longer service intervals than the 2" forks of 10 years ago.  They're also stiffer and lighter.  They are superior in every way.  I doubt you'd find a suspension fork at 2lbs since rigid mtn bike forks barely squeak in below that (most are above 2lbs).  My 97 vintage Manitou SX Ti has 77mm of travel (just under 3" and weighs about 3.5lbs.  IMO, that's as close as you'll get to your ideal fork.  Current renditions are available, but are not cheap.

Quote
No rear suspension, but the frame must be able to soften up the bumps.
I've ridden a lot of bikes, but I've never ridden one (mine or anyone else's) that had that magical quality.  Sure, mag writers talk about that a lot, but it's a pipe dream.  Kinda sounds like a gun rag writer, eh?  Better to get a good stiff frame and put fatter tires on it to absorb the blows.  If there's anything good to come out of the freeride/DH/dirt jumping fad is superfat tires.

Quote
Rim brakes are good enough, while being sturdier and lighter than disk brakes.
An finickier to adjust.  It's nearly a black art to getting rim brakes properly adjusted so they don't squeal.  I'll take the weight penalty of a good set of disk brakes.

Quote
9 or 10 speed rear cassettes and shifters are the wrong idea - someone should design a 5 speed system that's smaller, lighter, and more reliable.
Current 9spd systems are better shifting and just as reliable as the older 5/6/7spd systems.  One reason is that the chain makes smaller jumps at each shift.  Actually, with the advent of cassette hubs in the late 80s, we hit a pinnacle of strength, low weight, and reliability not seen with the previous hub designs.  I've ridden everything from a friction shifting 5spd hub to fully indexed 9spd systems.  I'll take the latter please.  There's no significant weight penalty with the additional cogs.

Quote
The rest of the components should be high quality and light weight.  The whole bike should be built to last 10 years of serious riding, it isn't the kind of bike that gets replaced every season.
That bike is available now if you can be flexible with your design parameters.  My bike is pretty close to what you ask for even if it has more travel in the fork and a 9spd cluster.  The only maintenance I perform is to lube the chain and adjust the brakes.  I haven't had to touch the drivetrain or various bearings except to replace one cartridge bearing in the rear hub.  In two years, I raced that bike for a season, rode it in a century (100miles in a day), and 2 MS150s.  I also averaged close to 100miles a week in various types of road training and recreational mtn riding.  It sat nearly idle for the past 5 years, but when I pulled it out recently, I didn't have to do anything to ride it.  It went straight from retirement to trail.  I didn't buy that bike though, I built it.  That's what you'll have to do if you want your dream bike.

Chris

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« Reply #41 on: June 10, 2006, 09:10:20 PM »
I was gonna explain how my "black art" rim brakes are easy to adjust and boringly reliable, and how the modern 9 speed shifters on my road bike give me fits.  But what's the point?  

If you like the current state-of-the-art in mountain biking then I'm happy for you.  But I don't like it.  I'm sorry if I'm not doing a god job of explaining why.

Quote from: MillCreek
Speaking of using the words 'crotchety' and 'bicycles' in the same sentence, I feel exactly the same way about the dearth of decent commuting bikes in this country.
There are lots of fine commuting bikes available here, we just call them touring bikes instead.

I plan to replace my road rig with a new commuting bike sometime this summer.  I'd really love to buy a Mercian frame, but I doubt I'll have the cash.  Surly's Long Haul Trucker would be a suitable (and affordable) alternative.

Look at the standard touring models from Trek and Canondale as a starting point.  It shouldn't be very difficult to tweak one of those into a great commuting bike.

Have you heard of Rivendell bicycles?

MillCreek

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« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2006, 07:49:33 AM »
I have heard of Rivendell, ATN, etc. and have thought about jerry-rigging either a flatbar road or a hardtail MTB into a commuter.  A touring bike could be a possibility what with the rack and fender mounts already there.  But the keyword there is jerry-rig.  My ideal commuter bike that I could buy off the shelf would have:

Flat bar road, commuter or cyclocross aluminum frame
700 c wheels/tires
Traditional or compact geometry
Internal hub
Chainguard or shielded chain
Full fender coverage
A dynamo light in the front powered off of a dynamo hub
Front and rear mechanical disc brakes
Rear rack with possibly a front rack option
Panniers that could carry a male business suit outfit
Platform pedals

The hard part to find here from a stock bike perspective is the 700c wheels, the internal hub (Shimano Nexus or Rohloff) and the disc brakes.  The closest bikes I have seen to having most of these features are all in Europe.  Kogo Miata from the Netherlands comes close as does the Silver Moon from Utopia Fahrrad in Germany.   You can buy a Kogo right now in the US, and it will only cost a bit over $ 3000 delivered (!).  

For a while, I was giving serious thought to buying a REI Novara Safari, and jerry-rigging a commuter, but they have discontinued that bike.  I forgot to mention that for commuting in traffic purposes, I like the more upright stance provided by a flat bar.  The 2007 Ibex Corrida Ultimate looks pretty darn interesting from a potential jerry-rigging standpoint, although it does not have the internal hub, etc.  It does have a good frame, 700c wheels and disc brakes.

I really like the disc brakes here in rainy Seattle: I have Avid BB-5's on my FS MTB.  My road bike has Ultegra calipers and I put Kool-Stop salmon pads on them, and they still provide less stopping power than my Avids.
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

zahc

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« Reply #43 on: June 11, 2006, 06:09:34 PM »
Salmon pads are the greatest.
Maybe a rare occurence, but then you only have to get murdered once to ruin your whole day.
--Tallpine