Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Leatherneck on October 08, 2009, 07:24:18 AM
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From today's WaPo via the Early Bird:
Overruns Predicted On Presidential Copters
Washington Post; October 8, 2009
An internal Navy document shows new plans to replace the president's fleet
of helicopters will cost taxpayers more and take years longer to deliver
than a recently scrapped contract, a New York Democrat said.
Rep. Maurice Hinchey said the Pentagon's plan to abandon aircraft built by
Lockheed Martin Corp. and buy a new fleet with similar capabilities at a
cost of up to $22 billion for delivery as late as in 2024 is "beyond
illogical." He represents the district where the helicopters are made.
A Lockheed spokesman directed questions to the Navy. A spokesman for the
service did not return calls for comment.
In May, the military halted production of the helicopters at the Lockheed
helicopter plant in Owego, N.Y. Defense Secretary Robert Gates said the
project, which had a $13 billion price tag, no longer met White House
requirements.
Cost overruns and delays plagued Lockheed's helicopter program due partly to
aggressive plans by the Bush administration to incorporate anti-missile
defenses, communications equipment, hardened hulls and other advanced
capabilities on the aircraft following the 9/11 terrorist attacks.
The funding issue likely will surface next week when House and Senate
lawmakers meet to resolve differences over their respective defense spending
bills.
I'm speechless...
TC
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I'm speechless...
I'm not. It's government. Self explanatory.
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An internal Navy document shows new plans to replace the president's fleet
of helicopters will cost taxpayers more and take years longer to deliver
than a recently scrapped contract, a New York Democrat said.
Uhm. Try a year and probably $100m per aircraft. Maybe $150m for the first two, possibly three aircraft. Unless the specs are wildly wildly different than the current generation VH-60 fleet. If they're superworried, just order more VH-60's. They're not as impressive, but they do the job quite nicely.
I can authoritatively say, I have no clue how you could make a helicopter cost $1b. Literally, I'm not sure what you could bolt on that would add up to a billion per airframe.
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Uhm. Try a year and probably $100m per aircraft. Maybe $150m for the first two, possibly three aircraft. Unless the specs are wildly wildly different than the current generation VH-60 fleet. If they're superworried, just order more VH-60's. They're not as impressive, but they do the job quite nicely.
I can authoritatively say, I have no clue how you could make a helicopter cost $1b. Literally, I'm not sure what you could bolt on that would add up to a billion per airframe.
$1B in bearer bonds slathered on the outer skin using wallpaper paste?
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I can authoritatively say, I have no clue how you could make a helicopter cost $1b. Literally, I'm not sure what you could bolt on that would add up to a billion per airframe.
Kickbacks are expensive.
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Kickbacks are expensive.
The correct term is "cost overruns." But yes, you are essentially correct.
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I can authoritatively say, I have no clue how you could make a helicopter cost $1b. Literally, I'm not sure what you could bolt on that would add up to a billion per airframe.
Supposedly, they're cutting back significantly on the VH-71 requirements because Ashton Carter has convinced SecDef that such a helicopter cannot be built. I'll believe it when I see it in writing, but I fully expect to see a boatload of the latest avionics, comm gear better that the Enterprise, electronic warfare suite with all the trimmings, extended-range fuel tanks, complete armor kit, and a fine Corinthian leather chair for The Man.
Integrating all that into a VH-whatever will take ages and cartloads of cash. UGH.
TC
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Integrating all that into a VH-whatever will take ages and cartloads of cash. UGH.
And as the price gets driven up, Congress will cut the program without ending it. So, the development costs will be carried by a smaller number of air frames, whose per unit price skyrockets.
That $1 billion a bird might be low by the time things get hashed out, and the dollar continues its bellyflopping.
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Supposedly, they're cutting back significantly on the VH-71 requirements because Ashton Carter has convinced SecDef that such a helicopter cannot be built. I'll believe it when I see it in writing, but I fully expect to see a boatload of the latest avionics, comm gear better that the Enterprise, electronic warfare suite with all the trimmings, extended-range fuel tanks, complete armor kit, and a fine Corinthian leather chair for The Man.
Integrating all that into a VH-whatever will take ages and cartloads of cash. UGH.
Really. Sounds exactly like the ones we just built for the President of South Korea.
The only part that'd be truly hideously expensive is the security procedures. Every employee who needs to go within a hundred feet of the airframe needs a Yankee White. Good luck with that if every person making the aircraft is a foreign national. Seriously, I could very easily seeing $20m or more per bird surcharge for security alone.
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Just a gentle reminder for the membership here who don't already know it:
We have insiders both in the Pentagon (aka Puzzle Palace) and at Sikorsky who just happen to be APS members.
Take it for what it's worth, but I'd temper my posting in this thread accordingly, know what I mean? ;)
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I can authoritatively say, I have no clue how you could make a helicopter cost $1b. Literally, I'm not sure what you could bolt on that would add up to a billion per airframe.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg12.imageshack.us%2Fimg12%2F520%2Fairforce1b2.jpg&hash=091225dd263af0b448ed9fe074c0ae345697df96)
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I don't think the VH-60 will ever be the primary Marine One. overseas sure because you can fold it up and stuff it in a C-5, but stateside I don't see the prez crawling into a helo he can't stand up in. I've said it before, the S-92 or similar could get the job done for a lot less than the VH-71 boondoogle. Of course[inser old-timer voice here] I don't see much wrong with the VH-3Ds he is riding in now. One of the safest helos ever built for the military judging by fatalities/100k hours. Make some new ones. Of course I'm biased, former VH-3A fixer. =D
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With G98's well-advised caution in mind:
The only part that'd be truly hideously expensive is the security procedures. Every employee who needs to go within a hundred feet of the airframe needs a Yankee White. Good luck with that if every person making the aircraft is a foreign national. Seriously, I could very easily seeing $20m or more per bird surcharge for security alone.
Very true. Advertising noted, Rev. =D
TC
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I can authoritatively say, I have no clue how you could make a helicopter cost $1b. Literally, I'm not sure what you could bolt on that would add up to a billion per airframe
Soild gold bathroom fixtures?
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Soild gold bathroom fixtures?
If only it were that simple, 280. Far worse.
TC
ETA: And far more expensive. Even with gold prices above $1K.
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How 'bout a kitchen to prepare POTUS meals?
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Soild gold bathroom fixtures?
No. Black paint. =D
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Special black paint... :lol:
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No. Black paint. =D
Darn it, it's MIL DTL53039 aircraft dark green, specifically Federal Standard# 34031 (as specified in the FS 595B - Colors used in Federal Procurement). Is it REALLY that hard to say "Em dark green (shade FS34031) helicopters are doing XYZ" instead of "Em black helicopters are doing XYZ"
Gah! I swear tin foil makes people immune from using proper and accurate nomenclature! :mad:
:laugh:
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No Mil Spec number?
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No Mil Spec number?
MIL DTL53039
http://www.nuteccoatings.com/MIL-DTL-53039_carc_coatings.htm
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Oh well duh... =D
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Do they use a special primer to get that blackish-green (greenish-black?) paint to adhere to the solid-gold, $1K/ounce presidential helicopter, then? =D
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Do they use a special primer to get that blackish-green (greenish-black?) paint to adhere to the solid-gold, $1K/ounce presidential helicopter, then? =D
I think it's really the gold underneath the "black" paint that makes it look greenish. Rev is just cleverly feeding us some disinformation (like that nutec website I almost fell for). :D
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Supposedly, they're cutting back significantly on the VH-71 requirements because Ashton Carter has convinced SecDef that such a helicopter cannot be built. I'll believe it when I see it in writing, but I fully expect to see a boatload of the latest avionics, comm gear better that the Enterprise, electronic warfare suite with all the trimmings, extended-range fuel tanks, complete armor kit, and a fine Corinthian leather chair for The Man.
And they need all this to fly from the White House lawn to Andrews AFB?
:Barf:
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Well yeah, Hawk.
Did you know that one previous Administration spokesman actually had the gall to say: "The President really hates to see all the regular folk sitting at blockaded intersections when he travels by Limo, so he prefers Marine One."
We actually have reinstated royalty in this country. :rolleyes:
TC
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Early in my Navy career, the shore duty component of my squadron had all of the VH-3As for the Navy on the East Coast (HC-6). I had the opportunity to go into them. They made Cadillacs look cheap. Plush carpet throughout, fine leather recliners, several peculiar comm systems, accessible to the passengers and many other things that can't be discussed. The rules at the time was E-4 and below only did wash jobs and waxed the aircraft. E-5 and above performed any maintenance. Maintainers were required to remove their shoes before entering. It was surreal.
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Early in my Navy career, the shore duty component of my squadron had all of the VH-3As for the Navy on the East Coast (HC-6). I had the opportunity to go into them. They made Cadillacs look cheap. Plush carpet throughout, fine leather recliners, several peculiar comm systems, accessible to the passengers and many other things that can't be discussed. The rules at the time was E-4 and below only did wash jobs and waxed the aircraft. E-5 and above performed any maintenance. Maintainers were required to remove their shoes before entering. It was surreal.
These days, you put on specialized slippers over your shoes. Roughly the same one doctors use, but more padded on the soles. Don't want stinky feet smelling up an aircraft, you know?
The VH-3A was phased out in 1989. Good aircraft, but old.
And they need all this to fly from the White House lawn to Andrews AFB?
:Barf:
Nyet. A bird is always ready to go "nearby" where ever the President happens to be. VH-3D's are for the PR events and anything normal. VH-60N's are for when things get (or have potential to get) interesting or the President is far from home. Or shipping around second tier VIP's. If you see a cluster of VH-60N's followed by a couple 53E's, things are very interesting. =D
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The only thing we see around here are B1-RDs Occasionally a GU-11 but those are usually hovering around Mount Trashmore.
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And they need all this to fly from the White House lawn to Andrews AFB?
:Barf:
Well, yeah. If they didn't have the helimochoppers to fly him to Andrews they'd have to drive him, and then they'd need billion dollar limousines.
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At night all MIL DTL53039 dark green (shade FS34031) helicopters are black...
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Wait, it won't be painted earth-cooling white?
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Gold plating make a great faraday cage.
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Well yeah, Hawk.
Did you know that one previous Administration spokesman actually had the gall to say: "The President really hates to see all the regular folk sitting at blockaded intersections when he travels by Limo, so he prefers Marine One."
We actually have reinstated royalty in this country. :rolleyes:
TC
I really take the statement to mean, "He hates to see all the regular folk having to sit blockaded at intersections because he chose to take the limo. When he takes Marine One, he doesn't cause traffic jams.
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I really take the statement to mean, "He hates to see all the regular folk having to sit blockaded at intersections because he chose to take the limo. When he takes Marine One, he doesn't cause traffic jams.
That's how I read it too. Quite sensibly he hates to be a bother unnecessarily.
Technically, if he weren't driving through a region that produces nothing of value, the opportunity cost of all those individuals unable to work for the amount of time delayed by the motorcade would probably outweigh the comparatively higher cost of choppering it.
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That's how I tead it too. Quite sensibly he hates to be a bother unnecessarily.
Technically, if he weren't driving through a region that produces nothing of value, the opportunity cost of all those individuals unable to work for the amount of time delayed by the motorcade would probably outweigh the comparatively higher cost of choppering it.
Choppering it isn't that expensive, relatively speaking. Compared to the delays and security prep work for any route he takes. Helicopters are expensive in infrastructure, but per engine time hour isn't that bad.
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Choppering it isn't that expensive, relatively speaking. Compared to the delays and security prep work for any route he takes. Helicopters are expensive in infrastructure, but per engine time hour isn't that bad.
Welllllll, look at fact boy here with his facts and stuff.
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Darn it, it's MIL DTL53039 aircraft dark green, specifically Federal Standard# 34031 (as specified in the FS 595B - Colors used in Federal Procurement). Is it REALLY that hard to say "Em dark green (shade FS34031) helicopters are doing XYZ" instead of "Em black helicopters are doing XYZ"
Gah! I swear tin foil makes people immune from using proper and accurate nomenclature! :mad:
:laugh:
You gov't types are only saying that because you don't want to admit to the black helicopters....
:cool:
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You gov't types are only saying that because you don't want to admit to the black helicopters....
I'm aware that "denial is proof", but I haven't worked for the govt in any capacity in many years and back then I was just an innocent, boring commo geek. If ya need help with a SINCGARS or a network, I'm your dude. Now, on the other hand, Leatherneck IS one of 'em nefarious govt folks. Ask him about his black ops missions involving a coffee pot, a bottle of vodka, a TPS report, and three cute Pentagon secretaries.
But seriously, black is a bad color if you're trying to hide. It's too dark, and thus easy to spot. Lighter colors blend in better and are much harder to spot. Some spy aircraft and UAV's actually have lights on the bottom to make them harder to spot. Simple wiring, you literally just need a light dependent resistor, a control relay and a light.
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Black, blackish-green, greenish-black, that's no way to paint a helicopter. =D
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Only thing better would be a shot of that helo doing a low forward sweep, with some dudes dressed in mice costumes running away as fast as possible. :laugh:
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Low-level flyover at a Furry convention?