Another clueless columnist (about the adventures in Wisconsin)

[Monkeyleg]

Another one of my favorite leftist columnists, Eugene Kane of the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, has written a column today about the teachers who skipped work to attend the protests. He's viewing this as one of those "teachable moments" that students can learn from.

What he fails to see is that the teachers' actions are wrong because they're protesting while being paid with taxpayer dollars. (Or maybe he sees that, but the end justifies the means). There are doctors from the university handing out sick notes for anyone who needs them to claim paid sick days. How's that for a lesson for kids? What's next, teaching them how to forge checks?

The column is here

[dm1333]

After a pretty exciting week in Wisconsin politics, some parents were more upset about students missing school because their teachers were protesting in Madison than anything else."How about a little advance warning next time?" is what one single mother with children in Milwaukee Public Schools complained after school was suddenly canceled Friday due to lack of teachers.

She was upset over having to make plans to leave work early to deal with the situation. For some families, when your child's teacher takes off for a protest in Madison, it can seem like a wasted day.

Gee, who'da thunk it?  Parents upset because their kids were missing school, or that they had to take time off from work, losing money, because these teachers weren't teaching school like they were supposed to.  As a public servant myself I'm disgusted by their actions.  Eugene Kane clearly doesn't get how wrong it was for those teachers to take off in the middle of the week and shut down the schools, or for those legislators to flee to another state to avoid a vote.

[BMacklem]

I was debating a liberal yesterday ( I know I know waste of time) who was under the impression that the teachers closing school was just like a "snow day".
I had to laugh, and explain to him that those teachers were getting doctors "notes" so they could continue to get paid on MY tax dollars for the days they have been absent, also I'M going to have to pay for those following days that will be needed as "make up" days.

So I'm paying TWICE for these idiots to protest a bill that isn't taking anything from them that a private sector person wouldn't jump for joy if we got those kind of rates, and they're also holding Wisconsin legislature hostage and grinding everything to a massive halt, oh and not to mention the hideous waste of money that's going to be needed to clean up their literal mess they're leaving behind.

[BMacklem]

Ya know I was almost surprised from the article, yeah he had his usual diatribe and BS, but there was one part that made me step back a moment and say WOW maybe he at least gets that part of how things are supposed to work (namely the part where he says that students *should* ask their teachers why they felt it was OK to fake being sick, and also at the end where he said that students should write a paper explaining why they are for or against their teachers acting as they have). It almost sounded like he wants student to develop and use critical thinking skills to be either for or against this.

Of course he outright lies about how nasty Gov. Walker killed the $810 million in federal funds for "high speed" rail plans, which outgoing gov Doyle is the one who actually finally killed the plans for rail, NOT Walker (granted it was at Walkers behest, knowing that Walker would kill it anyways), but I mean this is Eugene Kane, lies are par for the course with him.

[Buzzcook]

I've only known one person who never took a sick day when they weren't really sick. For the rest, taking a sick day is American as apple pie.

The right is just upset the people are taking those sick days for reasons they disagree with.

Personally I think collective bargaining should be considered a civil right along with freedom of assembly and the right to petition government seeking redress of wrongs.

This is a teachable moment for the kids. The question is what lesson do we teach, it is a good thing to take to the streets in order to protect your rights, or sit down and take whatever the boss says you deserve.

I prefer that American children not be taught to be lick-spittles.

[JonnyB]

"I prefer that American children not be taught to be lick-spittles."

As for myself, Buzz, I prefer they not be gorram freeloaders!

The governor isn't asking a hell of a lot from them.

jb

[Monkeyleg]

Personally I think collective bargaining should be considered a civil right along with freedom of assembly and the right to petition government seeking redress of wrongs.

You liberals sure have found a lot of rights in the past fifty years or so, but seem to dismiss a lot of the rights that are actually in the Constitution.

[Buzzcook]

The governor isn't asking a hell of a lot from them.

Once again, the unions have agreed to wage and benefit cuts. They agree that in tough times there should be shared sacrifice.
Eliminating the right to collective bargaining will not reduce the deficit in Wisconsin. That is what this is about.

You liberals sure have found a lot of rights in the past fifty years or so, but seem to dismiss a lot of the rights that are actually in the Constitution.

The active word is seem. While I applaud your defense of all rights, it didn't "seem" to me that conservatives did much to protect them while Bush was in office. And in my opinion they are doing less now that Obama is president.

[AZRedhawk44]

I've only known one person who never took a sick day when they weren't really sick. For the rest, taking a sick day is American as apple pie.

Only if you're a freeloader with no conscience.

Doing so en-masse, in an organized fashion intended to disrupt and derail an entire industry, is criminal in my book.

I can't wait for the CEO's union.  Or the inventor's union.

[Perd Hapley]

I've only known one person who never took a sick day when they weren't really sick. For the rest, taking a sick day is American as apple pie.

I guess I'll be your second, then. Nice to meet you.

[French G.]

I've only known one person who never took a sick day when they weren't really sick. For the rest, taking a sick day is American as apple pie.

The right is just upset the people are taking those sick days for reasons they disagree with.

Personally I think collective bargaining should be considered a civil right along with freedom of assembly and the right to petition government seeking redress of wrongs.

This is a teachable moment for the kids. The question is what lesson do we teach, it is a good thing to take to the streets in order to protect your rights, or sit down and take whatever the boss says you deserve.

I prefer that American children not be taught to be lick-spittles.

I dunno, I went 13 years with two sick days until I broke my leg and freeloaded 45 days convalescent leave. Oh wait, I was in a sea-going unit and I returned to full duty when they were trying to get me out of the unit. Best PT score in 5 years 6 months after that. Some people have a sense of duty that does not involve lying to their boss.

Personally I think collective bargaining should be considered a civil right along with freedom of assembly and the right to petition government seeking redress of wrongs.

Personally I think the teachers should all be fired. That's just because it's the best legal thing we can do to them.

I prefer American children to be taught be well-educated free thinkers regardless of their political bent. That does not include sorry union members who think they are owed something and therefore will simultaneously abrogate their contract to teach the children while giving them a valuable life lesson that it is okay to screw innocent people over while you get what's yours by intimidation and dishonesty.

[Monkeyleg]

Once again, the unions have agreed to wage and benefit cuts. They agree that in tough times there should be shared sacrifice.

They've agreed to that at the state level. If they retain the ability (I'm loathe to use the word "right") to bargain collectively, they can and will go after municipalities for concessions and muscle them under. The governor is removing their ability to collectively bargain so that municipalities can't be strong-armed.

In the case of government workers, the employer is the people and the employees are the government workers. If a private employer has a problem with the union, he can elect to let his contract with the union expire and, through a process, become a non-union shop, and be free to hire who he wants.

Taxpayers in union-controlled states cannot hire any teachers or police officers or corrections officers or firefighters or other service workers unless they're union. The unions have a monopoly on the services. The unions also have a monopoly on jobs and services. You can't be a public school teacher in Wisconsin, or a corrections officer, or a police officer in various cities, unless you're a member of the union.

But all of this isn't the real reason for the howls of protest. Governor Walker wants to eliminate collective bargaining, and he wants to give state employees the choice as to whether they'll pay money to the union. Unions are the largest source of campaign donations for Democrats. If workers are able to opt out of paying part of their wages to Democrat campaigns, that means trouble for Democrat candidates.

You can say that's wonderful, but what if corporations were allowed to deduct a percentage of every employee's pay to be used for campaign contributions? How loud would the howling get?

[roo_ster]

I've only known one person who never took a sick day when they weren't really sick. For the rest, taking a sick day is American as apple pie.

The right is just upset the people are taking those sick days for reasons they disagree with.

That is pitiful.  I'd look for better quality friends & colleagues, if I were you.

The day after I had my first surgery to fix & save my leg, I was back on duty.  I was back on duty by noon on the same day of my other surgeries, as I was able to schedule them for 7AM.  I deployed, even though unofficially non-deployable at that point, because my buddies would have been humped without someone to perform my duties.

If the SHTF, I was resolved to deploy, cam walker boot & all (later cane, later serious limp) and deal with the consequences rather than leave folks I worked with in the lurch.

Since leaving the .mil, I have not mis-used a single sick day or short term disability, etc.  That's going on 11+ years, now.

No wonder you're so bitter.  Everyone around you is an oxygen thief and you're just looking to get yours.

Personally I think collective bargaining should be considered a civil right along with freedom of assembly and the right to petition government seeking redress of wrongs.

LOL

I think that had that sort of setup in the old USSR.  Worked as expected.

This is a teachable moment for the kids. The question is what lesson do we teach, it is a good thing to take to the streets in order to protect your rights, or sit down and take whatever the boss says you deserve.

I prefer that American children not be taught to be lick-spittles.

The union members are giving a fine demonstration on how to be a lick spittle, teats on a boar hog, loser with an entitlement mentality, sure enough. 

Oh, gold-plated benefits packages paid for by taxpayers are not "rights."

[Buzzcook]

No wonder you're so bitter.  Everyone around you is an oxygen thief and you're just looking to get yours.

I am not bitter, in fact I am generally good natured and happy. I will admit that I am looking to get mine. Why should I not after all it is mine

Personally I think collective bargaining should be considered a civil right along with freedom of assembly and the right to petition government seeking redress of wrongs.

LOL

I think that had that sort of setup in the old USSR.  Worked as expected.

 You can't really believe the Soviet Union allowed collective bargaining. They brutally put down worker descent. It wasn't until just before the USSR fell that workers were allowed to have their own unions.

Oh, gold-plated benefits packages paid for by taxpayers are not "rights."

Once again the unions have agreed to benefit and wage cuts. Who do you expect to pay government workers if not the tax payer?

But all of this isn't the real reason for the howls of protest. Governor Walker wants to eliminate collective bargaining, and he wants to give state employees the choice as to whether they'll pay money to the union. Unions are the largest source of campaign donations for Democrats. If workers are able to opt out of paying part of their wages to Democrat campaigns, that means trouble for Democrat candidates.

Monkeyleg
While I don't think that's the whole reason Walker wants to kill collective bargaining, I agree that it's a big part. Walker and other Republicans want to weaken the Democratic party.

You can say that's wonderful, but what if corporations were allowed to deduct a percentage of every employee's pay to be used for campaign contributions? How loud would the howling get?

Have you ever heard of Citizens United?

[Jamisjockey]

I am not bitter, in fact I am generally good natured and happy. I will admit that I am looking to get mine. Why should I not after all it is mine

Ah, nothing like benefits reaped from the wages of others at the point of a gun. 

[ronnyreagan]

Unions are the largest source of campaign donations for Democrats.

You don't happen to have a source for that do you?

[vaskidmark]

Personally I think collective bargaining should be considered a civil right along with freedom of assembly and the right to petition government seeking redress of wrongs.

But you are missing the point completely.  Collective bargaining is just nice-talk for the right to strike.  It's the muscle unions needed when they first were started, and was needed back in the bad old days when capitalists really were pigs and exploited the workers.  <skidmark removes tongue from cheek>

When public sector employees can strike, they can stop the functioning of the government as a tool to pressure management (the operation of government) to accede to demands they would not otherwise agree to.  Public sector employees usually trade the right to strike and participation in defined benefit retirement systems for not being able to strike and possibly lower pay scales.

Pushing the government for raises in pay or benefits means pushing up the tax rates.  There is a point when the rest of the taxpayers are going to start crying, and then leaving.  Thus the tax base goes down, requiring a rise in the tax rate, resulting in the proverbial viscious circle.  At some point the government is going to lay off workers as their attempt to hold down the tax rate.  That will also make the other taxpayers unhappy as there is a slowing of receipt of government services.  (Ask the folks in the tonier neighrborhoods of NW Washington, DC what happened to their homeowners insurance premiums when the city closed fire stations in NW because closing them in SE would have been seen as racist.  Ask the folks in NYC who contracted any of several diseases because nobody picked up the garbage for weeks.)

You want to be a public employee you need to understand why you cannot do certain things that eemployees in the private sector can do.  "Meet and confer" is about the best they should be hoping for.

This is a teachable moment for the kids. The question is what lesson do we teach, it is a good thing to take to the streets in order to protect your rights, or sit down and take whatever the boss says you deserve.

See above.  You are saying that public employees should close down government operations to protect what you  - and many other social(ist)-democrat(ic) European countries - refer to as a "human right".  Well, what a good idea to teach to our youth - that throwing a temper tantrum like a three year old is how to get things you want.  There are better ways to prevent "the bosses" from telling you to roll over and take whatever they propose.  Ever hear the phrase "Take it or leave it"?  Choices, right there.  If the employees don't like the offer they can reject it and go look elsewhere for a paycheck that better suits their desires.

Oh!  That's right!  We are in the midst of a recession and there are no good-paying jobs just laying about waitng for someone to agree to take them.  As a matter of fact, if you lose your job you are likely not to find another one at an equivalent income/benefits level.  But government employment is pretty much recession-proof.  There may be some layoffs, but even in right-to-work states those are mostly handled by seniority and attrition so those with the biggest investment in keeping their jobs get to do just that.

Just in case anybody was wondering -  I still think that up until around 1932 unions were a good idea.  Their history since then has been primarily one of corruption and personal greed.  I'll grant they are not as bad now as they were in the 60's-70's, but most of that is due to laws being passed to try and control the more egregious sins.  I've not only worked as a public employee under "meet and confer" agreements, I've participated in the conferring part of that from both sides.  Hashing out a budget is not pretty, and will never satisfy most of those wanting a slice of it.

Unless and until public sector unions realize that they cannot continue to try to force salary and benefit increases in a system already operating in a deficit they are not helping either their members or the public their members are hired to serve.  I'm not saying that budgets ought to be balanced solely on the backs of public sector employees.  But they have no "right" to expect a raise.  If the cost of living exceeds their income they can take their case to the bosses and the public, but not on the taxpayer's dime.  Take that vacation/personal leave day to lobby.  Hold your public events after school - heck, you can get better TV coverage of a live event than film that may be upstaged by some piddling car crash.  Or they can go look for a better-paying job.  With the hours they work they actually have better opportunities for job searching - and taking part-time jobs -than most other working stiffs.

stay safe.

TYpos.  < see what I mean?

[Monkeyleg]

You don't happen to have a source for that do you?

Yes, I do. Below is a list of the top 140 contributors to both parties from 1989 to 2010. I added the numbers for the top fifty, because I'm lazy.

In the top fifty, nineteen of the top contributors were unions. The total amount contributed to the Democrats from all fifty contributors was $958.75 million, of which $438.19 million (43%) came from those nineteen unions. The other 57% was split up between corporations, business and professional organizations, political groups, and other disparate contributors.

So, I think it's safe to say that unions are the top contributors.

source: http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php

[Perd Hapley]

Unions are the largest source of campaign donations for Democrats.

You don't happen to have a source for that do you?

Let's say this turned out to be false. What would it imply?

[French G.]

You don't happen to have a source for that do you?


Let's say this turned out to be false. What would it imply?

That the biggest donors are foreign shills, evil rich people, and corporations who are really part of the republican machine but give money to the dems because they're so evil?


It's either that or the tens of good-hearted, organic eating, peaceful americans who clicked the hopey-changey button and gave $10 by paypal.

[Scout26]

It's either that or the tens of good-hearted, organic eating, peaceful americans who clicked the hopey-changey button and gave $10 by paypal.

Even if they were living in Palestine at the time.